Fixing hi-hat bleed in the mix

[SaxonSound]

I have a bunch of snare tracks that have way too much hi-hat in them. When I turn the snare up to a level that I like in the mix, the hi-hat dominates the song too much. There is enough hi-hat in the overheads anyway.
EQing out high end makes the snare sound too lifeless. A gate doesnt work well, since it will keep the hat hits that coincide with the snare hits and it just sounds funny.
I'd rather not use samples, unless that is the only way I can save the tracks. Anyone have any tips I can use to save this mix?

[tom18222]

point the snare mic away from the hi-hat.

[denial]

Well this won't fix your mix but I've had better results with hi-hat rejection using a Beyer M201 Hyper Cardiod mic and what bleed is captured is generally more pleasing than a SM57. A Sennheiser 441 will probably work well too.

You could try sidechaining (comp/eq) the snare to filter out some of the hats and use most of the snare from the overheads in your mix. Most of my drums usually come from my overhead and room mics and the close mics are just to add a bit of punch and definition.

[fishtop_records]

Move the snare mic so that the evil hi-hat is in the null.

Or pick a different mic, say a Beyer M201
which is Hypercardiod instead of the cardiod of an SM57.

Or take a piece of acoustic ceiling tile a foot square or so (easy to get any any office construction site) and put the mic in the middle of the tile. Position to suit.

Basically, re-record it so that the damn
hi-hat isn't so loud in the snare mic.

Also search the archives here, recpit, and r.a.p. for topics such as "hi-hat, the bane of my existance"

[smoothmoniker]

Saxon

Sad to say, if you already have the files recorded, the only way to make it better may be to do some sound replace work with a clean snare sample. It's a good reason (and you may have done this) to take single hits of all of the drums at the end of each tune, so that you capture the sound of the kit for fixes, etc.

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing. You can take the sound of the real snare up in the mix to the point where the hat sounds level in the mix, then make up the rest of the gain with samples. Split the difference.

-sm

[Dave Martin]

It's song (and player) specific, but I've had good lick on occasion with a Drawmer DS 201 gate.

[Bobalou]

do those plastic squares with foam inside that fit over the end of the mic work well for isolation? (there like square plastic windscreens)

[DirkB]

Not all has to be lost ,

What works for me is to put an expander on the snaredrum (I like the Waves plug in). Play with the release time and you can get rid of some of the leakage...

Good luck,
Dirk

[Hans Hitmachine]

Put a small piece of tape on the hi-hat. Not too much much, thoug.
As for filtering the hi-hat bleed I would take a very comprehensive equelizer. Maybe even digital eq (I know, they are awful, but very precise).

[drundall]

Originally posted by SaxonSound
I have a bunch of snare tracks that have way too much hi-hat in them. When I turn the snare up to a level that I like in the mix, the hi-hat dominates the song too much. There is enough hi-hat in the overheads anyway.
EQing out high end makes the snare sound too lifeless. A gate doesnt work well, since it will keep the hat hits that coincide with the snare hits and it just sounds funny.
I'd rather not use samples, unless that is the only way I can save the tracks. Anyone have any tips I can use to save this mix?

I've struggled with this problem years ago and I have to agree that you're screwed and need to use samples. Some of it is mic technique and a lot is probably bad playing. I usually use a top and bottom mic on the snare for a little more power when recording drummers who bash the hat and pet the snare.

Also, use your judgement. If the guy is smashing 15" hats half open and barely hitting the snare, tell him you need to find some different gear. Try smaller hats and look for a loud snare (helps if he's hitting rimshots).

Good luck.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by drundall
... Some of it is mic technique and a lot is probably bad playing. ...

True and there are usually lots bigger issues than hi-hat bleed when you step back and listen to the feel of the whole thing.

[speerchucker]

If your snare track has a lot of ghost notes, there is no automated fix possible. Manual cleaning in a daw is really the only solution. You COULD try a frequency-specific compressor (kind of like a de-esser) on the sanre, with the hasts feeding the side-chain, but I doubt you'll be happy with the results.

Using sound-replacer, or manually rplacing as suggested above, can certainly help, though you will lose some life.

Try time-aligning the hats with the snare track, and just living with it.

[Jason Poulin]

A lot of my problems get fixed at the performance of the drummer.

Hard snare smacks versus the hi hat hits ratio.

Even that out and you'll find that the bleed in your snare won't bother you.

Jason

[TinderArts]

I recently used an Audix OM5 for a top snare mic and it works very well for HH rejection.

[TinderArts]

Originally posted by speerchucker
If your snare track has a lot of ghost notes, there is no automated fix possible.

I never gate snare mics (at least the top). Ghost notes are too important for feel to lose. One way I've found that help tighten the snare (fx) is to put a gate in the aux send path to the snare verb. This will keep the hh slosh from messing up your snare verbs and it'll also give you more implied impact of the snare.

[SaxonSound]

I think I have the snare track where I want it. Here's what I used (in case anyone is interested)

1. expander - bring up the snare, bring down the hat

2. EQ - boost 4khz, cut 500hz to make the snare sound nice

3. reverb - plate, dark and kinda long

4. compressor - high threshold, medium ratio, to coax some sustain back into the sound. I've never put compression after the reverb before, but in this case it worked.

After all this, I have a pretty usable hard rock snare sound. Probably would suck in a sparse mix, but in a dense mix with overdriven guitars, it sounds gravy, and the hi-hat is in the mix at a volume I can cope with.

Big thanks to everyone who offered advice.

[speerchucker]

Tinderarts, that's a really good idea!

[mixer]

this will sometimes work depending on the recording..make a copy of the hi hat track.either analog on seperate track or digital...then return it out of phaze...blend back into the drum mix slow..in mono or with the track paned the same as the snare drum. if they were recorded in phaze it should take the hat out of the snare track..but you will also loose the frequency of the hat in the snare.

[e-cue]

You could key the input of a duckable gate like the Drawmer gate and roll off all the highs (like, down below 900 hertz, and further depending on the hat sound) on the source you are sending into the key (actually, some gates have this built in). I usually use one of the spare channels in my Speck316 and just -infinity the top 2 bands for the keying purposes. Notching out the really bad stuff with a GML pre gate helps too. The Waves Deesser has done me good in this situation about 30% of the time. The McDsp multiband compressor works for me about 50% of the time. It really depends on the sound you are given and what you ultimately want to end up with.

[loudist]

Use a gate on the snare track in DUCK mode with the hi hat track as the sidechain trigger. This might not work depending on the hat pattern and/or snare leakage into the hi hat mic.

[saint]

Hey guys,

All good solutions with gates, expanders and re trigers as i have had to do this loads of times, it is however very track specific as to what works.

One thing you may want to have a shot at is recording a fresh snare track made from the one you have down, mixed with a clean feed from the hat track using identical eq, but changing the signal phase. You will have to play with the level of the hat feet, but this can make the spill disappear completely....doen't always work tho......

Good luck,
Saint.

[saint]

LOL!!! that will teach me for not posting at the time of intial reading!!!! Mixer beat mixer to it.....only just read that sorry.....oh well i guess 2 of us out there change the phase, so there is milage in the madness!!!!

Saint.