Convince a digital slut to become or not become a tape slut

[numrologst]

I've been comtemplating buying a tape machine ever since I opened my new studio... I am a young guy(23), so i started making music in digital and have stayed that way... I now have a successful band and studio, so there is not much worry about the cost...But still a realization that I shouldn't dump too much money into it.

I've got a lot of tasty gear and no matter what I buy, I am alwas juicing for a 2" machine...But I keep flip flopping...

My technical/fix it side is not my strong side... I am getting better... When I first got my console, I didn;t think there is anyway I could fix problems with it... But after flying a tech out, i picked up on everything he did, and now nothing with the console phases me.

Obviously a tape machine is more complex and harder to work on, but I think I could figure out at least the basics to intermediates...

So I need some opinions from you guys, Obviously I am going to buy a machine with a good head report at least 50% life left. And I am going to try to make sure that I find a machine that has been in use.

But I guess I need some words of wisdom. Is it going to be hard for me to learn how to keep everything aligned and calibrated correctly? I just don't want to drop the cash and not be able to use it.

So what do you sluts think?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by numrologst

But I guess I need some words of wisdom. Is it going to be hard for me to learn how to keep everything aligned and calibrated correctly? I just don't want to drop the cash and not be able to use it.

Is it hard to learn?

Nope.

You do it religously and it becomes old hat.

Depending on which machine you buy you can store some of the alignments.

Originally Posted by numrologst

So what do you sluts think?

I was a little confused by your post.

Have you tracked to tape before or is it something you think you will like to do?

2 entirely different cases. If not its best to book time in a studio and really try it out. I get the impression for some its the ideal "panacea" for flat sounding productions which in reality the problems lie elsewhere.

Tape only contributes so much. Yeah when used for it strengths you feel its effects down line to your master(smoother tracks, less ear fatigue, less processing and EQ needed, etc) which will help the end result.

But its only as magical as what you put in and how you put it in.

[numrologst]

thanks for the reply thrill...

I've never done anything with tape before... There is nowhere around me that has a tape machine in use... I'd have to book time at a studio in Dalllas or Austin, which is 350-450 miles from me... No one else has a tape machine that sees constant use...

I'm not looking for anything magical sonically.. It just seems to me, the only thing i have to conquer. It's not really for ay clients either, I am wanting to buy the machine for my band, and a few other bands I do that have the music skills to make recording to tape smoothly.

I love my mixes, there is no kink in the chain. Most people that hear my mixes ask me what kind of tape machine I use. Obviously I don't, and i don't think my mixes sound like they were recorded to tape at all. Most people are just used to hearing really bad ad/da conversion

So I am not trying to fix a problem, or seek any magic... It just seems my logical next step

[theblue1]

You could, perhaps, experiment with a mixdown tape machine first... maybe a nice 1/2" machine... 30 ips, no NR... Quicker to align, imparts "tape compression" -- and adds a nice visual touch to the studio, even if you don't end up using it all the time.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by numrologst

It just seems my logical next step

My 2 cents...make the trip.thumbsup

That's a like $50 tank of gas and another $75 for some time in the studio or something like that right?

Its better than dishing out $6K and then finding out its not your cup of tea.

(Also trying to unload a tape machine is not as easy as people think).

Think of it like buying a used car. Would you just buy a used car cold on the whim that owning a Alfa Romeo would be the next jump if you wanted to own a convertible?( I know a little extreme here but its just an example).

[Musiclab]

for me it sounds better and is a better form of storage and it makes you work in a particular way which I happen to prefer, and you now have an extra 24 tracks.
Here's a question, do you have a console? Are you thinking of using the deck for color?
If you're working itb, and you aren't just using the deck as a processor then you are into a console now too, and wiring it all up. If you're interested in using the deck with your daw then you're into some syncronisers. Just keep in mind it's not just buy a tape deck and and go

[max cooper]

I love the sound of tape, but it's not practical for me right now.

In fact, without the advent of the DAW, I'd have a pretty limited rig right now.

In the absence of tape, I'm a "get a good sound onto the hard drive slut".

Digital has some benefits. What you hear through the monitors is what you'll hear when you play the session back. Today, tomorrow or two years from today. Depending on what's going on, that can also give tape the advantage.

Whether or not that's what happened in the room is neither here nor there, but tape is a simulacrum just like digital.

Only live is live.

[numrologst]

yeah, I have a console. I have a 32 channel neotek elite 2... Not too worried about anything in the process other than getting the tape machine working properly and in use. Like I said, I'm not trying to fix a problem or find a magical sound. I just want to be able to make use of it before machines aren't around anymore

By the way, I am leaning towards a sony jh-24.

I have the money to do it now, so i am leaning towards it... I'm not worried about it being my cup of tea... It's always been my aspiration to have a machine.

I guess Im just gonna go for it.. But I am open to some more words of wisdom

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by numrologst

yeah, I have a console. I have a 32 channel neotek elite 2... Not too worried about anything in the process other than getting the tape machine working properly and in use. Like I said, I'm not trying to fix a problem or find a magical sound. I just want to be able to make use of it before machines aren't around anymore

By the way, I am leaning towards a sony jh-24.

I have the money to do it now, so i am leaning towards it... I'm not worried about it being my cup of tea... It's always been my aspiration to have a machine.

I guess Im just gonna go for it.. But I am open to some more words of wisdom

If your JH-24 has the red sockets in it... prepare for some fun. On top of a total recap, you're gonna need a little work on those sockets to get it reliable. The JH-24 seemed to sync up best as the "master" with a Protools setup. Really nice machine overall. I'd love to have one with an 8 track headstack on it.

If you haven't used tape a ton, and are wanting it but haven't heard it, then you don't really want it. It's like wanting some guitar because you think it will make you play better. It won't. It won't make your productions all of a sudden magical. If you REALLY need something tracked on tape, i'd say go to another studio and track it on tape, and then come back and finish up.

[themaidsroom]

if money is ok
do it well once
find 25k
buy one of the remaining
new gold edition a827's.........

it will outlive you and any other musical financial
investment

any digital recording next to this machine just doesn't sound
good.......
i imagine that will be the case ten years from now
as it was ten years ago, and
ten years before that.....

its limitations are helpful.......
if you hang out with people who can play and sing,
it's a great way to go........

be well


- jack

[rwhitney]

Mixing to tape might be cool, but I can't imagine going back to tracking on tape unless I had a major facility with assistants and tech support. I do have a two track, but even that's a hassle. Actually, everything's a hassle, so whatever...

[bcgood]

I would seriously consider tracking some with a Super VHS or Betacam SP, (that is even better but more expensive). You can get the sound of tape without all of the maintenance hassles of a multi track tape machine. I like tracking the vocals high-hats and cymbals to tape and pretty much everything else straight digital. Then I like to mix down to tape, I think it does make for a better sounding product. Just listen to U2 Joshua Tree and then Atomic Bomb both on CD, there's quite a big sonic difference and Joshua Tree blows Atomic Bomb away sonically its not even close...

bcgood

[numrologst]

Again, I'm not looking for magical fairy dust, or golden unicorn hair. I have no reason to go and book time at another studio. I own my studio and all my gear. I have plenty of clients coming in and 95% of them are happy with digital. My productions already sound fantastic. But I'm juicing for my own machine.

My motive for the tap machine is for a learning experience, just to do it, and yes it would be nice to reap the benefits of the machine... But not so nice for the downfalls of the machine. I don't know how else to explain it, but I'm not being whimsical, I don't expect it to make me a better engineer or producer. I;ve just always wanted to track my bands music to tape.

My whole band is talented and is made up of professional studio musicians. So I'm not worried about anything related to that.

I guess some of you are saying it makes sense and some of you are saying it doesn't. Which I understand both sides.

But I'm booking $2000/week in my studio, so it is not a far stretch to troubleshoot problems, financially.

But...i can always buy a 1/2" machine and a portico tape emulator... But then that gets at the whole magical fairydust thing... And that's not my motive, but that is a sonic plus. I don't know, this is a hard decision

[runamuck]

It sounds like you're happy enough with what you've got. You won't be any happier with a tape machine. It's not the logical next step, as you say, or you wouldn't be asking for opinions.

Stop the consumerism and put your energy into your art, not technology.

Jim

[numrologst]

nice point runamuck

[stevep]

My whole band is talented and is made up of professional studio musicians. So I'm not worried about anything related to that.

Can you record a whole song without looking at the Edit screen ?

If so you might like recording to multi track tape

I would record ALL projects to 2" if it were up to me !

Give it a try , you might like it ,.... Book some time in a room with a Studer 820 / 827 and go from there,..... also try and get one with Dolby SR , there is no noise at all ,.... And you can always switch it off

I love to run at 15 ips and Dolby SR NAB call.

PhaTT !



steve

[numrologst]

ohhh this is so hard.

It's like i have my conscience on my shoulder... An angel on one side, a devil on the other.

The angel is saying your mxes sound good, buy the tg1 limiter and germanium tone control. You have fast effecient work flow, just keep digital, just keep digital. I mean my 16x's really do sound phenomenal.

The devil is saying...Sure your mixes sound okay, but it's digital, analog is better. Get that 2" machine, it will rock your world.

Then I am in the middle with all the people here saying they love tape, and others saying that they couldn't imagine recording with it anymore... I'm going to scream

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by numrologst

ohhh this is so hard.

It's like i have my conscience on my shoulder... An angel on one side, a devil on the other.

The angel is saying your mxes sound good, buy the tg1 limiter and germanium tone control. You have fast effecient work flow, just keep digital, just keep digital. I mean my 16x's really do sound phenomenal.

The devil is saying...Sure your mixes sound okay, but it's digital, analog is better. Get that 2" machine, it will rock your world.

Then I am in the middle with all the people here saying they love tape, and others saying that they couldn't imagine recording with it anymore... I'm going to scream

Don't trust any of us here; for the most part we don't know what we're talking about.

What are your favorite recordings? Are they digital or analog? I bet most of them are digital.

I hope you have less money than sense.

Jim

[rainsinvelvet]

As a owner of a MM1200 and a PTHD I can say that I like the sound of the analog machine better. It's also much easier to mix things off the analog machine even if I dump to PT.

Now, 98% of the clients that come throught the studio DON'T use the analog machine. The could care less. They look at tape cost and editing capabilitys and just go for PT. Whatever, I wish they used the 2", but I feel I can make it sound good either way.

I guess what I'm telling you is don't expect to bring a ton of clients in based on having a 2". For your own projects its alot of fun, and to me the only way I want to record. So....

Yes, you should get one, but remember:
*It will cost a lot more than you think for parts, ect (depending on what you buy)
*It's not as easy to edit, tweek like PT
* it will NOT hold any re sell value.

But,
Go for it. You already want one, whats it going to hurt?

ERic

[numrologst]

Most of the modern bands that I listen to are recording to tape ie:

Wilco, Kings on Leon, The Shins, The arcade fire, angels and airwaves, white stripes, The Raconteurs, etc...

And I mean of course my favorite record of all time: Harvest...

So much of my musical taste comes from recording tracked to 2"... But hey I am young, i should probably just roll with digital.

[Lectra]

If you don't try it you don't know what you're missing.
Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.
You just have to find out.

To each his own...

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by runamuck

Don't trust any of us here; for the most part we don't know what we're talking about.

What are your favorite recordings? Are they digital or analog? I bet most of them are digital.

I hope you have less money than sense.

Jim

That's funny because all of my sonically favorite albums are from tape. I seriously think that there is a big difference, analog is so much more organic and smooth. Of course there are bad analog recordings as well. But if your going for the very best sound then tape almost always wins with discerning listeners. I think eventually digtial technology and engineer's knowledge will get to the point that it can sound as good or better but I love listening to a CD, yes a CD that was originally recorded analog. Again take the same band U2 and listen to Joshua Tree, Unforgetable Fire etc and then listen to they're recently digitally recorded stuff, it's like night and day, the analog stuff sounds so much better. But digital is easier but easier doesn't produce a superior product and that sounds like what your going for.

Check out this link, this is the S-VHS deck that I have. What I do is record everything digitally then when I have the final vocal I solo it into this deck. Then I play it back into the digital domain. It always comes out sounding better aka: phatter, smoother, creamier...

http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?model...thId=49&page=2

bcgood

[numrologst]

interesting bcgood...

By the way, the machine I am looking at is a 1987 Sony badged jh-24... So no red sockets...

Heads were relapped in 1998...Head report says 85% on record and repro...90% on erase...

I am negotiating with the seller right now, but it looks like I can get the machine for around $2600-$2800

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by bcgood

That's funny because all of my sonically favorite albums are from tape. I seriously think that there is a big difference, analog is so much more organic and smooth. Of course there are bad analog recordings as well. But if your going for the very best sound then tape almost always wins with discerning listeners. I think eventually digtial technology and engineer's knowledge will get to the point that it can sound as good or better but I love listening to a CD, yes a CD that was originally recorded analog. Again take the same band U2 and listen to Joshua Tree, Unforgetable Fire etc and then listen to they're recently digitally recorded stuff, it's like night and day, the analog stuff sounds so much better. But digital is easier but easier doesn't produce a superior product and that sounds like what your going for.

Check out this link, this is the S-VHS deck that I have. What I do is record everything digitally then when I have the final vocal I solo it into this deck. Then I play it back into the digital domain. It always comes out sounding better aka: phatter, smoother, creamier...

http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?model...thId=49&page=2

bcgood

You may not like the music, but listen to either of James Taylor's most recent albums, Hourglass or October Road, and tell me that those don't sound just as creamy and smooth as tape. In the right hands and with top quality equipment,
digital is beautiful. There is absolutely nothing grainy or harsh about those two albums at all.

On the other hand, Harvest was mentioned as a great recording to tape. It's certainly a matter of taste of course, but I think that album is not well engineered at all.

Jim

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by runamuck

You may not like the music, but listen to either of James Taylor's most recent albums, Hourglass or October Road, and tell me that those don't sound just as creamy and smooth as tape. In the right hands and with top quality equipment,
digital is beautiful. There is absolutely nothing grainy or harsh about those two albums at all.

On the other hand, Harvest was mentioned as a great recording to tape. It's certainly a matter of taste of course, but I think that album is not well engineered at all.

Jim

I'll check them out.

bcgood

[Lek]

To the original poster...
I'm in a similar situation, and I'm going to go for it as well - to tape that is. I've had a mixdown deck - ampex atr102 for a year now, and I like just recording direct to it - to me it blows away digital, and I'm using top end pres and a/d's - cranesong.

To my ears, the difference is astounding, not even close. To me, it's not just that tape is smoother and more organic, it just sounds like a completely different universe (not just better, I just mean it sounds DIFFERENT)

Everything I've learned has come out of experimenting, why not experiment with tape? - as long it doesn't put you on the street, at the worst it will give you invaluable experience, even if it means going back to digital.

[drBill]

With a JH24, prepare for professional help. Unless you have the services of a tech on a fairly regular basis, you're not going to be really happy with a 2" machine. Even my tech who specialized in MCI's spent LOTS of time under the hood trying to figure out why it wasn't working. Plus there's lots of parts that are extremely expensive (thank Sony for that) that are hard to find. Book some time in an analog studio on your next project and see how you like it. See if it's really worth it to you. There's so much "nostalgia" about analog tape these days and a lot of it is coming from people who have never even threaded a tape machine. There is definately something to the sound, but as a long time owner of 2" machines, I would not go back. Well, I might go back, but only if I had a pretty large commercial facility with a tech on staff that was good with those machines.

I take the strengths of digital and go with it - the weaknesses, I try to find ways around them and turn it into strengths. Many are all google eyed about analog tape, but they forget (or never knew) the bad things - dropout on tape, high end that starts to erase the next playback after recording, edge tracks, cross talk, nd on and on. Make sure that it's really what you want. While I often get nostalgic about the old days....I'm not looking back.

Now....don't try to take my analog console away though!!!

[numrologst]

everyone has amazing words of wisdom... I have no reason not to experiment, but I definately don't need the mind**** of getting the machine going... There is no tech where I am located... I'd have to fly someone in... But I was hoping that with the state of this machine I want to buy, It won't need serious tech upkeep...

I know obviously it will need regular maintenance and upkeep that I should be able to do... But as for serious problems... I won't be able to adress them, and it will cost a pretty penny to get a tech here. That's my only real reservation... But I just have a feeling that I will be able to wing it somehow...

I want to be in another universe...

[Roland]

Jim's right, October Road sounds great!


Outside of the maintainance issues and the benefits of recording to analogue (drums particularly benefit from that slight push you can get on tape), almost everyone here has glossed over the downsides, thing like that fact that tape can be fiddly, particularly if you are syncing things up, frustrating waiting for reels to rewind, time consumming to line up.

I remember my frustration at times about how the sound would change from the channel live sound, to what would come back, sometimes this is great and exactly what you want, often it can be a pain.

Regards


Roland

[drBill]

Originally Posted by numrologst

everyone has amazing words of wisdom... I have no reason not to experiment, but I definately don't need the mind**** of getting the machine going... There is no tech where I am located... I'd have to fly someone in... But I was hoping that with the state of this machine I want to buy, It won't need serious tech upkeep...

I know obviously it will need regular maintenance and upkeep that I should be able to do... But as for serious problems... I won't be able to adress them, and it will cost a pretty penny to get a tech here. That's my only real reservation... But I just have a feeling that I will be able to wing it somehow...

I want to be in another universe...

If that is your situation - that you would have to fly a tech in - then I would not get a 2" machine and certainly not unless it is completely refurbished and restored. Even when my JH24 was in good shape I had logic problems, autolocator problems, ghosts in the machine, etc.. I'm serious. I owned one. For years. People complain about the cost of upgrading PT all the time. That is childs play compared to keeping a 2" machine running and in good shape. Although I love the sound, I would not do it again without a tech. Sorry to be a groove buster. I have find that you just HAVE to do it. Buy a studer, have it shipped to a killer tech, spend another 10-15 grand and have him completely go through it. Then have it shipped to you and have him fly in and commission it. Other than that, if you need analog, rent a studio and let someone else have the headaches and downtime.