Convince a digital slut to become or not become a tape slut

[numrologst]

drbill-

I appreciate you being the groovebuster... I need to hear it... I don't want to put $10k into a machine right now... Maybe after another year or two... The max I can afford to spend is the cost of the machine and a commission..

Perhaps I need to do exactly what some other slutz have said and focus on the music and the art...not the medium

[vernier]

I'd go smaller than 2" ... four or eight track and track drums to that, and/or use it in other ways. As for calibration, you set it and leave it nowdays cuase nobody goes from studio to studio with analog anymore.

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by drBill

With a JH24, prepare for professional help. Unless you have the services of a tech on a fairly regular basis, you're not going to be really happy with a 2" machine. Even my tech who specialized in MCI's spent LOTS of time under the hood trying to figure out why it wasn't working. Plus there's lots of parts that are extremely expensive (thank Sony for that) that are hard to find. Book some time in an analog studio on your next project and see how you like it. See if it's really worth it to you. There's so much "nostalgia" about analog tape these days and a lot of it is coming from people who have never even threaded a tape machine. There is definately something to the sound, but as a long time owner of 2" machines, I would not go back. Well, I might go back, but only if I had a pretty large commercial facility with a tech on staff that was good with those machines.

I take the strengths of digital and go with it - the weaknesses, I try to find ways around them and turn it into strengths. Many are all google eyed about analog tape, but they forget (or never knew) the bad things - dropout on tape, high end that starts to erase the next playback after recording, edge tracks, cross talk, nd on and on. Make sure that it's really what you want. While I often get nostalgic about the old days....I'm not looking back.

Gee, you never mentioned all of this when I bought your JH-24.

Actually, it wouldn't have changed my mind anyway. I just refinished recapping the whole machine and power supplies, installing new gold-plated Millmax IC sockets in all the critical areas, resoldering all the Molex pins on the motherboard (this is the area that causes most of the problems), and other maintenance that's needed on a 26-year-old piece of electronics. I found a new set of heads for an excellent price, and have been working under the guidance of Steve Sadler at Blevins, who offers a subscription service for tech support via phone or email for $150.00/yr. My first email to him saved me more than that. What he doesn't know about these machines (and anything MCI) can't be known by mere mortals.

Since I finished up all the soldering work last week, Steve has guided me through a complete transport setup. The guy I'm buying the heads from worked with Steve at MCI and is coming up to do the head install, and will also show me how to align the deck at the same time.

I understand that if someone had to pay for all the labor I did myself, it wouldn't be worth it. When I got into recording, I decided that I needed to learn as much about electronics as I could because that's one of the ways to make running a small studio like mine financially viable in today's business climate; that is, I knew I couldn't afford to have a tech come out to fix my stuff every time an indicator light went out. I also live in a rural area and this just isn't feasible.

With that in mind, I took my knowledge of tube electronics (I've built and repaired a lot of guitar amps) and went full steam ahead into the solid-state stuff. Since then, I've recapped and fixed previous crappy "tech" (man, I use that term loosely) work on my Neotek Series II, which hasn't gone down ONCE in the three years since I finished it. I've also built six 1176 compressors, one LA2A, and two GSSL stereo compressors. These were built using the wonderful assistance on the Prodigy DIY forum. While I don't remotely know everything about electronics and never will, I know enough to repair what I have in my studio, and I also know when to take advantage of the vast knowledge offered by folks like Steve, especially when they offer it for such a reasonable rate.

All in all, to use one of Fletcher's lines, it aint' rocket surgery to keep this stuff going, but I've had a lifetime of experience fixing and restoring things (mostly old cars), so I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty. Yeah, I might be "google eyed" and marginally delusional, but because ALL of the music I enjoy was recorded to tape I just want to hear the sound of it coming back at me through my Neotek desk just once before I die. Call me a sentimental old fool if you like.

What gets me is all the talk in the digital world about how this and that "sounds just like analog." People jump on the latest things like lemmings rushing to the cliff because it's touted as being able to add "tube" and/or "tape" warmth. Yeah, right. Why are so many so focused on trying to duplicate archaic technology if it's so bad? Frankly, I have yet to hear ANY digital recording that has as nice a high end to it as I've heard coming from tape. All of it sounds as brittle as Momma Cass' bones.

Oh, and another thing. I read a LOT more grief stories about DAW meltdowns, software incompatibilities, hardware incompatibilities, new operating "updates" that f00k up everything, etc. ad nauseum than anything analog. Maybe that's because there aren't many studios running tape anymore, but to claim that analog is more troublesome than digital? Now who's delusional?

When I'm done with this deck, I'll have about $2500.00 in it. I'll let you know if it's worth it in a couple of months when I have it fully integrated into my studio.

YMMV.

Cheers,
--
Don
Idyllwild Brewing Company
Fine home-brewed beer, tube guitar amps, and recording services

[numrologst]

I was under the impression that jh-24's are gonna keep running once they are setup right. I had heard that from multiple people, but now many people are talking about them being maintenance *****s.

I feel like i should just forget about it.

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by numrologst

I was under the impression that jh-24's are gonna keep running once they are setup right. I had heard that from multiple people, but now many people are talking about them being maintenance *****s.

I feel like i should just forget about it.

I've also heard from a lot of who say that once the known troublesome areas are addressed, they're very reliable. John French told me his JH-24 has been rock solid for years after he resoldered the Molex pins on the motherboard.

My best advice: If you can't work on it yourself, don't get it. These things are like keeping a cool old British motorcycle or car on the road. You have to love doing it and live with the occasional spot of oil on the driveway and garage floor.

Cheers,
--
Don

[drBill]

Originally Posted by idylldon

IMy best advice: If you can't work on it yourself, don't get it. These things are like keeping a cool old British motorcycle or car on the road. You have to love doing it and live with the occasional spot of oil on the driveway and garage floor.

Cheers,
--
Don

Don - good to hear from you!!! I'm glad you're taking care of your (my-ex) adopted child! New heads? Cool. That and the work you put into it should keep you going for awhile.

I hope I didn't mislead you when you bought the machine. I recall us talking quite a bit about your level of expertise in fixing things - and my caveat about the technical hurdles that the machine had.

When you say "motherboard", are you talking about the big circuitboard under the transport? If so, I can remember the tech working on that area of the machine a lot. Maybe I should have had him put in the new molex connectors....

Anyway, I have to disagree with you about the amount of maintainence on a DAW vs 2" machine. Well.....maybe not. They both take maintainence, but with a computer/DAW, there's tech support, or running out and getting a new $1500 computer to keep you up and going. With a JH24, there's no running down to comp USA to get a new capstain motor, or a set of heads, or an alignment tape, or ...... etc. In my line of bus, when I'm on a project, I can't afford to loose even a single day or I'm doomed. Plus, no one works on analog anymore in the film biz. Pro Tools only now....

Your above quote is the best advice I've seen given on this thread. If you're not committed to techie stuff (and I'm not, I'm a composer turned engineer turned composer again) then you shouldn't own one unless you have the knowledge, skill and time to keep it up and running. I didn't. Sad, but true, I tried, but just didn't have what it takes to keep her up and going. In their nostalgic glossy analog dreamland, people forget one little thing. These machines are OLD. Most of them 30+ years old. It's not like buying a vintage mic. There are basically no moving parts on a mic other than a switch or maybe 2. On a tape machine there are dozens of moving parts and thousands of electrical components that are nowhere near as reliable as surface mount technology in the 2000's. Sound better? Yes. Is it worth the investment in time, knowledge and $$$? Well, that's an answer that each of us has to face on our own. And decide if the journey is worth the effort and the cost.

Now, one last thing for numerology - don't let Don fool you. He is skilled and knowledgeable about electronics and has no hesitation about jumping in and fixing, modding and twiddling. How many 1176's or tube mics have YOU built??? I wouldn't have sold him the JH if he hadn't shown me his knowledge in that. Oh, and one last thing, the deal with Steve Sadler at Blevins is VERY COOL for anyone considering a machine. That deal is worth it's weight in gold. I don't know how he can do it so inexpensively.

Way to go Don. Somebody has to keep the torch going, and from what I've seen, you're just the guy to do it! Carry on!!!! Best of luck in the analog world.

Cheers,

Bill

[duckyboard]

ive been dying to get an old ampex machine

[drBill]

[QUOTE=idylldon;922902You have to love doing it and live with the occasional spot of oil on the driveway and garage floor.

Cheers,
--
Don[/QUOTE]


PS - I still have some spots on the floor that I can't seem to get out. Next time you're cruising by, want to stop in and help me with them?

Best,

bp

[numrologst]

now that I think about it, for the cost of my new daw(nuendo, apogee 16x's, lynx aes, custom computer, cabling) I could have had 2 jh-24 restored and functioning at 100% and still have enough money left over to fly in a tech 2-3 times.

but i guess i wouldnt have any business without my daw

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by numrologst

ohhh this is so hard.

It's like i have my conscience on my shoulder... An angel on one side, a devil on the other.

The angel is saying your mxes sound good, buy the tg1 limiter and germanium tone control. You have fast effecient work flow, just keep digital, just keep digital. I mean my 16x's really do sound phenomenal.

The devil is saying...Sure your mixes sound okay, but it's digital, analog is better. Get that 2" machine, it will rock your world.

Then I am in the middle with all the people here saying they love tape, and others saying that they couldn't imagine recording with it anymore... I'm going to scream

I think you should go for it. The experience alone will be worth it and its fun commiting to tape. sounds to me like there are no financial worries so its really a thing you need to get out of your system. coming from a digital back ground you will probably think tape sounds dull to start with and your mixes will sound fluffier. Not saying thats a bad thing and the tape machine with your very decent console would give you very nicey results.

go for it, at the very least when your 60 you wil be able to say you actually used tape

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by numrologst

now that I think about it, for the cost of my new daw(nuendo, apogee 16x's, lynx aes, custom computer, cabling) I could have had 2 jh-24 restored and functioning at 100% and still have enough money left over to fly in a tech 2-3 times.

but i guess i wouldnt have any business without my daw

Not really true. There's a few 'all analogue' studios around. I think the new Racantours CD was done mostly in this manner, as was the White Stripes "Elephant", and there's quite a few other people who will pay handsomely for all digital. I'd keep around a Protools rig or whatever and keep it so that you can pull it into the room and hook it quickly to your console in case it's needed, but if anything I think that an all analogue studio could be a selling point in a market that's currently getting harder and harder to stick out (and survive) in.

[Mixing Louder]

Hello All,

This is my first post.

I am a 2" lover that hasn't used a Multitrack in 2 years. The sound of a well calibrated 2" machine always brings a smile to my face. But the Studer doesn't have Beat Detective, or Autotune, or the editing features that I have depended on to make the records that I have in the past few years. Sure, I've used a yardstick to edit drums on tape, and used the H3000 to tune vocals, but it was because that's all we had to use. My experience is that, if you can keep it on tape, do it on tape. Otherwise, it can become a headache very quickly. I have a 1/2" Ampex ATR 102 that I print every mix to. This might be a good avenue for you. Learn about how it works, and then move to the multitrack.


Good Luck!!!

Mixing Louder

[stevep]

Originally Posted by numrologst

now that I think about it, for the cost of my new daw(nuendo, apogee 16x's, lynx aes, custom computer, cabling) I could have had 2 jh-24 restored and functioning at 100% and still have enough money left over to fly in a tech 2-3 times.

but i guess i wouldnt have any business without my daw

I think you should GO FOR IT !

I have those 16X s and there is no comparison to the sound from my Studer 820

As far as the tech work you can and will learn what you need or want / can do yourself.



steve

[mahasandi]

do it!

i started analog went to digital kept digital and have added/went back to

analog


ahhhhhh thats what i was missing .


do it!!!!!

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by drBill

I hope I didn't mislead you when you bought the machine. I recall us talking quite a bit about your level of expertise in fixing things - and my caveat about the technical hurdles that the machine had.

You didn't mislead me at all, Bill, and I think I got a very fair deal on this machine. No worries here, mate, and I knew full well what I was getting into, and you were dead honest about the machine, its condition, and the maintenance required to keep the reels spinning.

When you say "motherboard", are you talking about the big circuitboard under the transport? If so, I can remember the tech working on that area of the machine a lot. Maybe I should have had him put in the new molex connectors....

Yes, the one all the other cards plug "on" to. It seems that MCI embraced wave soldering early on, but the pins and solder pads on the motherboard didn't reach a hot enough temp to get good solder joints (I've read that they didn't do any preheating), so over time they can cause problems. I just desoldered all of the pins then hit them with some fresh solder using a large iron.

Anyway, I have to disagree with you about the amount of maintainence on a DAW vs 2" machine. Well.....maybe not. They both take maintainence, but with a computer/DAW, there's tech support, or running out and getting a new $1500 computer to keep you up and going. With a JH24, there's no running down to comp USA to get a new capstain motor, or a set of heads, or an alignment tape, or ...... etc. In my line of bus, when I'm on a project, I can't afford to loose even a single day or I'm doomed. Plus, no one works on analog anymore in the film biz. Pro Tools only now....

In your situation, a DAW makes perfect sense for sure. I don't have to operate under the time constraints that you do, which gives me the chance to work with tape to see how it goes.

Your above quote is the best advice I've seen given on this thread. If you're not committed to techie stuff (and I'm not, I'm a composer turned engineer turned composer again) then you shouldn't own one unless you have the knowledge, skill and time to keep it up and running.

After I posted my comments last night, I thought of a couple of other things. I've always been the sort of guy who likes to keep old things running, and I've been that way my whole life. It's a hobby, and having a machine like this and an analog console just fits my need to tinker with stuff, and I like learning how things work. This is surely not for everyone.

Another thing I was thinking about is that I'd love for some young musician to come into my studio someday and hear the tape and be inspired to become involved in analog recording. You know, keep the spirit and technology alive. Yeah, it's a bit of a romantic and idealized scenario, but I think it'd be cool to keep some of these decks recording for as long as possible.

I didn't. Sad, but true, I tried, but just didn't have what it takes to keep her up and going. In their nostalgic glossy analog dreamland, people forget one little thing. These machines are OLD. Most of them 30+ years old. It's not like buying a vintage mic. There are basically no moving parts on a mic other than a switch or maybe 2. On a tape machine there are dozens of moving parts and thousands of electrical components that are nowhere near as reliable as surface mount technology in the 2000's. Sound better? Yes. Is it worth the investment in time, knowledge and $$$? Well, that's an answer that each of us has to face on our own. And decide if the journey is worth the effort and the cost.

Absolutely agreed. Also, you're under far more time pressure than I'll ever be. The movie/TV world is a tough mistress, and you've managed to do well for a long time in that venue, which speaks a great deal about your talent, skill, and professionalism.

Oh, and one last thing, the deal with Steve Sadler at Blevins is VERY COOL for anyone considering a machine. That deal is worth it's weight in gold. I don't know how he can do it so inexpensively.

Well, next year his rates are going up, but I don't know how much. My guess is that it'll still be a good deal for someone in my situation. He's he's been very responsive and has an amazing ability to talk anyone through complex processes.

Way to go Don. Somebody has to keep the torch going, and from what I've seen, you're just the guy to do it! Carry on!!!! Best of luck in the analog world.

Well, I hope I can keep it going for a long time, though I'm sure there'll be some rough sections on the trail! Whenever you're ready to take a break, get some fresh air, and visit the ol' MCI, come on up and I'll buy lunch.

Cheers,
--
Don

[drBill]

Originally Posted by idylldon

Whenever you're ready to take a break, get some fresh air, and visit the ol' MCI, come on up and I'll buy lunch.

Cheers,
--
Don

thumbsup thumbsup

I may just do that! Throw my motorcycle in the back of the truck and come up! Take care,

Bill

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by numrologst

Obviously a tape machine is more complex and harder to work on, but I think I could figure out at least the basics to intermediates...

I can't imagine why you would think this. Recording to tape is far easier and faster than protools.

I know the MCIs are supposed to sound good, but I'd go with Otari or Studer whihc should give you fewer maintnence issues.

[eligit]

personally i am still waiting for the first really amazing sounding digital recording of a non classical band.

i wish just ONE of my favorite sounding albums was done digitally. that would make me happy.

[willythekid]

Don't know if you already knew about it, but over at homerecording.com they have a forum about analog recording. these guys can answer all questions. If you can afford it, i definitely think you should try out analog recording. It's no myth, it just sounds so much better.

[numrologst]

i totally agree with everything everyone is saying

It's not like I haven't been around tape before, just never engineered a session

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by runamuck

You may not like the music, but listen to either of James Taylor's most recent albums, Hourglass or October Road, and tell me that those don't sound just as creamy and smooth as tape. In the right hands and with top quality equipment,
digital is beautiful. There is absolutely nothing grainy or harsh about those two albums at all.

On the other hand, Harvest was mentioned as a great recording to tape. It's certainly a matter of taste of course, but I think that album is not well engineered at all.

Jim

I did quite a bit of research and couldn't find any documentation stating that October Road was all digital, could you provide a link or something that shows how they recorded this?

bcgood

[Slipperman]

Tape is King sonically for rock stuff.

Maintainance is minimal once you get it flying.

SM.

[Capstan Cappy]

hmmm lot of complaining about the MCI's , never had a problem with that machine , yeah maybe pull a card out once a while and put it back when i lost a track , DAMN, where did the basedrum go, lol. , the studers do have a slightly more reliable transport though but sonically i love em both, but i wouldn't buy a machine if you see it like a little science project,, cause u'll get bored very soon, the advantage i think of a machine is that u can repair it,with digital hardware u have to send it to the manufacturer for repairs or if u have a service contract it will be replaced in 24 hours,or whatever.... you say u always wanted to record bands on tape, then my question is WHY!?!?!, you must have some thoughts? is it because it gives you the feeling of REAL recording engineering??old school style? , it is romantic though, i own two sony MCI's 24tracks , one i used the other not , , a year ago i bought the transistor version build in 74? or 75 or was it 78 can't remember e, but that's gonna be my baby with DBX150 type 1 NR , further a ampex MM1000 16 track wich i did a live recording with in a discotheek, now that was fun, getting that thing down the steps LOL, 350 kilos...anywayzz, choosing a tapedeck and using it takes dedication and love , don;t expect to hook it up with a single firewire cable before u can use it u'll have ur share of work done , but then comes the satisfaction when u record, oh man what a sound

[numrologst]

well Im gonna make the plunge

[Mike Caffrey]

You'll be fine. Alignment is very easy and I'd highly recommend putting on a tape with somehting on it and tweaking the alignment screws during a playback so you can hear how big a deal (or not) it is if the alightment is off. There are certain contexts where it can be big, but 95% of the way people use tape today, it's going to be pretty insignificant unless it's way off.

One other thing to check out is passing a drum signal through the tape machine and into you digital system simultaneously and look at the meters.

What you'll see is that the kick and snare level will be perfect for digital and look way too low in analog. That's the sluggishness of VU meter ballistics. Highly transient signals need to have a much lower meter level.

Also, in my opinion, tape saturation is a very bad thing. You get the "tape sound" without printing to hot.

[numrologst]

thanks for the tips mike.

Lately I've been trying to get in the habit of using the vu's on my console more than the meters in my daw... Obviously I use both... But it seems to be translating much better than it used to(visually).

Im also a fan of headroom. I will probably overdo the drums a little bit at first, but I know i'll get the hang of it... Now I just need to decide on which machine to buy

[deejay2x]

You'll get a lot of problems especially if you don't deal with tape. Theres a lot of things to think about. The cost of tape is expensive, they wear overtime, and maintaining the machine isn't as easy. Recording to tape too is totally different from digital. I would probably use the tape deck mainly for drums & bass. It has that nice warm sound. Maybe some vocals as well. I would then back up the session and go from tape to your DAW. It will have that warm sound...

[drpeacock]

I don't know if this makes any difference to you or not, but here's my 2 cents worth:

I am not an engineer. I am a musician. I have recorded two records completely analog, and one as a combination digital/analog. The combination record included some songs that tracked drums and bass to tape first and then flew them to PT, and some of the drums were tracked 100% digital.

According to my ears there is no comparison. Tape just sounds better for "live" music - if you are going to be using a bunch of sampled stuff, who knows, but if you and your clients are actually going to be playing the preponderance of instruments you will hear, tape is my recommendation (again, remember that I am not an engineer and the guys I worked with were capable of doing their own maintenance on the machine - some people have posted some very valid practical reasons to leave tape alone; I am speaking only to the sonic tastiness of it).

But if you got a machine and learned how to maintain it, it could provide you with a differential marketing advantage - if the nearest tape machine is that far away, you would be the only kid on the block with one, right?

Case in point - I'm getting ready to record some material & have a choice of three studios to track in (true story). One has a working 16 track 2 inch machine & the other two do not. They are the same price. Guess which one I will be using, even though it is an hour farther away from me?

Just one client's perspective...

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by numrologst

yeah, I have a console. I have a 32 channel neotek elite 2... Not too worried about anything in the process other than getting the tape machine working properly and in use. Like I said, I'm not trying to fix a problem or find a magical sound. I just want to be able to make use of it before machines aren't around anymore

By the way, I am leaning towards a sony jh-24.

I have the money to do it now, so i am leaning towards it... I'm not worried about it being my cup of tea... It's always been my aspiration to have a machine.

I guess Im just gonna go for it.. But I am open to some more words of wisdom

I would not get the Sony. Go for a Studer, Ampex or MCI. Otaris are also OK, but have the head bump a bit higher than it should be, making you work harder on your kick sound than other machines. I heard they fixed that in their last model though. Otaris are pretty easy to maintain.

[squidsquad]

This thread is three years old. I'm sure the advice you're offering is good, but perhaps not relevant to the original poster any more.