Mic Positioning vs. EQing

[soupking]

Hi all,

I've read on this forum that good mic placement can make up for a lot of later required EQing.

I assume I understand what this means in regards to live recording. A signal may be distorted and diffused by the time it reaches the microphone in a live situation. However, in a controlled environment how would EQing help? Is it just fine tuning? I know a lot has to do with ear, but I kind of feel like a kid at a brand new chemistry set, the more I mix the more I get mud.

I want to make sure everything sounds like it's in a space but how does one keep from overdoing it? I want to get the most from my sound, but I don't want to end up in tweekville especially by the time I get to the mix.

Any suggestions? Anybody know what I'm talking about?

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by soupking

Hi all,

I've read on this forum that good mic placement can make up for a lot of later required EQing.

I assume I understand what this means in regards to live recording. A signal may be distorted and diffused by the time it reaches the microphone in a live situation. However, in a controlled environment how would EQing help? Is it just fine tuning? I know a lot has to do with ear, but I kind of feel like a kid at a brand new chemistry set, the more I mix the more I get mud.

I want to make sure everything sounds like it's in a space but how does one keep from overdoing it? I want to get the most from my sound, but I don't want to end up in tweekville especially by the time I get to the mix.

Any suggestions? Anybody know what I'm talking about?

It's both. Mic placement comes first. Get that as right as you can. Then resign yourself to the fact that you may have to fix it with EQ.

Put a mic in front of a guitar amp, singer, instrumentalist...whatever, and have the musician play/sing.

Listen to the monitor mix, and take note how there is inevitably some overall EQ balance which will factor in your final overall mix.

Listen, then ask yourself, "Will this work well?"

That's how you start. It's a process, and there are not easy formulas we can call out to you. I hate to say this, but you really have to use your ears.

You have to move that/those mic(s) around until you get a sound that's somewhere in the ballpark of what the overall sound is you're shooting for.

There are several variables in that regard:
1) which sorts of mics and their pickup patterns
2) distance
3) axis
4) room aspects

You will want to work with those aspects until you get a sound you feel is right, then hit record. Because time's a-wasting, and you don't want the talent sitting around all day while you futz with mic placement.

Hopefully, your mic placement choices will yeild some nice sounds, but you will probably want to EQ them in the mix anyway. And that's fine and OK, because if you've gotten good sounds in the tracking stage, because you took some time to place those mics well and good, then your post-tracking EQing can be a pretty easy endeavor. It will most likely consist of some low-shelf cuts, to get rid of the remaining mud. Or not.

Do what you gotta do, at both the tracking stage and the mixing (EQing) stage. Experiment, listen, and trust your instincts. Don't beat yourself up over every little thing.

Pick a mic placement, and hit record.

Come mix time, EQ that track, and bounce the fukker.

[soupking]

Cool, thanks for taking the time to respond so in-depth Curve.

I'm thinking that EQing might be the easiest to do once in the mix. That is after carefully miking signals to the best of my novice ability.

As for miking, I'm definitely just going to do what I can to get what I think is a clear signal before the mix and not worry about EQing ahead of time. I tend to plan too much. Your feedback definitely helps put things in perspective. Again GS rocks. Thanks again.

[RCM - Ronan]

Great engineering is all about mic placement. Get it right at the source and EQ as little as possible (especially if you do not have access to amazing EQs) Try doing your mixes with only EQ cuts instead of boosts. You will be amazed at how fast your mixes improve.

[squeegybug]

Originally Posted by soupking

I've read on this forum that good mic placement can...

.... take up to 6 hours.

Steve

[tINY]

And piss off the singer.....



-tINY

[blaugruen7]

as a jazz saxophonist i can tell you that i like it when the engineer first listens to the sound of my instrument in the room and then leaves into his control room an THEN creates the sound on his monitors.
i have played saxophon solos for friends and then in the end there was a COMPLETE differrent saxophone sound.
i understand the engineers motivation but i can tell you its scary when you look into the mirror and see a different person!!!
:-)

[edvdr76]

Originally Posted by rcm

Great engineering is all about mic placement. Get it right at the source and EQ as little as possible (especially if you do not have access to amazing EQs) Try doing your mixes with only EQ cuts instead of boosts. You will be amazed at how fast your mixes improve.

Well said! I'm also a HUGE fan of subtractive eq. I try to not eq too much on the way in. I try to move the mic around to get my sound. When I do eq, its mostly taking out rather than adding.

[soupking]

Cool, that seems to make a lot more sense, using the EQ in terms of deductive reasoning as opposed to additive. To my logic, I would think that would just alter the signal rather than improve it.

Sounds like to me that it's all about good mic placement and EQ trimming around the signal based on where the frequency resides, like a gentle coat of some kind.

Thanks everybody, great input. Believe it or not that helps me figure out what I DON'T need to do when facing a ton of equipment and nobs etc.

[absrec]

Your biggest offenders are going to be on the drumkit. For me, almost every time out, it's the kick and the overheads. If those two things have too much 300Hz-500Hz, I find myself constantly turning other things up because I can't hear them and then not being able to hear the kick and cymbals. The reason for this, I believe, is that you put a lot of mics on a drumkit and they all posess a lot of the same frequencies. 400Hz will build up fast on anything if you put more than one mic on it. Vocals, guitars, bass, keys, etc. you should be able to get away with cutting flat provided you have a good solid source.

I know this has turned into a big "use your ears" thread already, but I wish someone had clued me in to some of this stuff when I first started out.

Good luck,
-Aaron

[warhead]

I think the whole "only use subtractive EQ" is a concept that probably gets thrown around a bit too much on some of these forums. If it sounds good, turn the knob either way you like is my opinion on it. The idea of making somebody gun-shy on the + side of the knob is a little strange.

Do whatever sounds good.

War

[Tukar Studio]

Right on Warren,
I was always afraid of using too much additive EQ. Then one day I had a local mastering engineer (Doug Milton - great guy) over to help me improve my mixes and the first thing he did was go to the kick track and put about +10db small q at about 60hz which really brought out the fullness. He said don't be afraid to EQ the crap outta something if it needs it. Thanks Doug!

[mixer]

Originally Posted by Tukar Studio

Right on Warren,
I was always afraid of using too much additive EQ. Then one day I had a local mastering engineer (Doug Milton - great guy) over to help me improve my mixes and the first thing he did was go to the kick track and put about +10db small q at about 60hz which really brought out the fullness. He said don't be afraid to EQ the crap outta something if it needs it. Thanks Doug!

there is no right and wrong....first step is the mic...if you get that wrong everything you do after that is reconstruction...you also need a good understanding of how instruments create sound..it is not always what you think and sometimes very complicated. you can have the best mic in the world but in the wrong position it is crap..

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by rcm

Great engineering is all about mic placement. Get it right at the source and EQ as little as possible (especially if you do not have access to amazing EQs) Try doing your mixes with only EQ cuts instead of boosts. You will be amazed at how fast your mixes improve.

I think rcm pretty much nailed it.

Regarding the boost versus cut EQ issue. Just be aware when boosting a signal, especially in broad bands, that the signal also gets louder. But louder sounds often better, so there is the risk especially for beginners to fool yourself with those nice sounding broad boosts and it might still end in a muddy mix. Just make sure that you do a volume matching betwin the unprocessed and processed signal. If you do EQ cuts and the processed quiter signal sounds still better than the unprocessed, chances are relatively small that you've done a wrong eqing.

Andreas

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by rcm

Great engineering is all about mic placement. Get it right at the source and EQ as little as possible (especially if you do not have access to amazing EQs) Try doing your mixes with only EQ cuts instead of boosts. You will be amazed at how fast your mixes improve.

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

[u b k]

there's certainly no reason to fear additive eq, and there's definitely no reason to not do whatever it takes to make something work.

and still, ime, there is nothing on the planet that sounds as good as a mix where everything was recorded exceptionally well and the eq was minimal and generally subtractive in nature. these productions tend to have wonderful arrangements and performances behind them as well, which makes the minimal approach that much more possible.

mixes where everything is carved, sculpted, and shaped using extremes can be wonderful, they can be exciting, they can all kinds of things, but rarely are they as euphonic as the less-is-more productions.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Musiclab]

To me they are 2 different things when you're tracking you want to get a great sound, in the mix you have to get it to fit right, then it's eq time. Unless your Michael Wagner, he played a mix last AES show Gearslutz party that he said had no eq that sounded perfect.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by warhead

I think the whole "only use subtractive EQ" is a concept that probably gets thrown around a bit too much on some of these forums. If it sounds good, turn the knob either way you like is my opinion on it. The idea of making somebody gun-shy on the + side of the knob is a little strange.

Do whatever sounds good.

War

I think this whole thinking started because people were using cheap / poorly designed EQ's. On a POS EQ it can make a difference.

I am from the camp that says do what you got to do to make the track sound good but.... between raising 4k up 10 db or lowering 2k or 1k or 500 hz by 10 db I would go with the latter. I think that is because I started out using such crappy EQs myself.....



To the original thread, yes I always reach for mic position, or a different preamp or microphone before EQ. Again because I started out my career on junk EQ my first inlclanation is to get it right at the source. Now that I do have some nice EQ I still think it is better to use that as a last resort to all the other changes you can make before it.