WYHIWYG Cab Miking (What You Hear is What You Get)

[85db]

(WYHIWYG = What You Hear is What You Get)

When mic'ing guitar cabs with classic mics like SM57, it takes a lot of futzing around. The problem? IT DOESN'T SOUND THE SAME ON TAPE. There's a big gap between the actual sound and the sound on tape.

Think of it -- this shouldn't be this way. The way it should be: 1) make your amp sound great to your ears, 2) track it. You'll still have to make it work with other tracks -- but that's a legitimate struggle. Given all the complexities of sound capturing and reproduction, this will probably never happen. Yet, I'd like to move closer in that direction.

What mics capture the true tone of a cabinet the best? Obviously, not the SM57.

What mic'ing techniques capture the true tone the best? I'm guessing a multi-mic/multi-location approach would have the best chance here...

[max cooper]

LDC further out in the room.

I think you're not hearing what you get with a close mic because of (a) proximity effect and (b) the closer you are to the source, the less ambient room sound you'll get, relatively speaking.

If your ear were where the mic is, you might hear the same thing.

Your ear is hearing a mixture of room sound and direct sound.

also, a mic right up on the cone is hearing a section of the cone, whereas when you're out in the room, you're hearing all parts of the cone at equal distance (I'm considering the differences negligible) plus the sound of diffraction off of the edges of the cabinet, any ports, open backs, etc. etc.

So if you like what the cab sounds like, put a mic where you're standing. Of course, no mic hears like your ears do, but it's a start.

Maybe try an omni?

I think it was Sam Phillips who said he'd get the band sounding great in the room and then just mic the room.

[Matt Hepworth]

Does your amp sound the way you want when you put your ear right against the speaker?

If so, another mic is the trick. If you want to capture it the way you're hearing it in the room then forego the close mic.

Guitarists, I've found, rarely actually have any idea what their amp sounds like - only what it sounds like in the room - off-axis and bouncing all around.

I mean no offense with the comments.

[joeq]

I use the Beyer M260 on guitar cab a lot. Upon playback, many guitarists say things like- "hey that sounds like my amp!" Of course it helps when the guitarist actually wants it to sound like his amp and not like Thor's amp. (That's the Thor, Norse God of Thunder.)

I think ribbons in general are more WYHIWYG on amps than something like a 57.

Part of the reason may be because I am afraid to stick my ribbon too close and I get more room sound from moving it back a bit, but I agree the "classics" often take too much futzing around.

[gwailoh]

I feel your pain on this one. I can get the amp sounding great in the room, but, so far, I've only been able to capture approximations of that sound. Including omnis, room mics, figure-8s, etc.

Many engineers use multiple close mics. It's not uncommon to see a 121, 421 and 57 all on the same cab. I assume people are using each mic for a particular feel or part of the spectrum. My best results have been with a 122 and 57 close, but the search goes on.

[Flymax]

when recording electric guitars..the speakers in the control room actually become your guitar cabinet..How can you make "your" sound come thru to the recording..
it does take what you call "futzing"to recreate your cabinet sound....mics,eq,compression..multiple mics,different positions..angles..different room..

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by max cooper

LDC further out in the room.

I think you're not hearing what you get with a close mic because of (a) proximity effect and (b) the closer you are to the source, the less ambient room sound you'll get, relatively speaking.

If your ear were where the mic is, you might hear the same thing.

Your ear is hearing a mixture of room sound and direct sound.

also, a mic right up on the cone is hearing a section of the cone, whereas when you're out in the room, you're hearing all parts of the cone at equal distance (I'm considering the differences negligible) plus the sound of diffraction off of the edges of the cabinet, any ports, open backs, etc. etc.

So if you like what the cab sounds like, put a mic where you're standing. Of course, no mic hears like your ears do, but it's a start.

Maybe try an omni?

I think it was Sam Phillips who said he'd get the band sounding great in the room and then just mic the room.

I use this approach a lot. Sometimes when other engineers come in the studio when I'm tracking guitar they'll look at me all crosseyed because of where I have the mic, but the sound always gets a thumbsup

A couple times in addition to having the mic a few inches to a few feet back the best sound has sometimes been when the mic was pretty far off-axis too in addition to being a few feet back (!), so it's most likely picking up a lot of room reflections... but that's where it sounded best in that case, so there we are. Sometimes the room can be beneficial.

Probably not the best way to mike up a nu-metal guitarist or something, but it can work really well if you have a good sounding room. Just experiment until you get something you like. BTW I was listening to the first Jet album the other day and it sounded in a couple songs like Sardy was using a combination of a close mic setup and a room mic that was way far back in the room- sounded huge- you could try that too.

[Gregg Sartiano]

I agree -- try multi-miking the cab. Get an LDC and a 57 on the same speaker in phase (so if you put one out of phase and they're level-matched, the volume drops considerably). Also, if you track these two mics separately, you can adjust blend later to fit the mix.

Read Slipperman's Recording Distorted Guitars thread.

[85db]

Originally Posted by glitch

Does your amp sound the way you want when you put your ear right against the speaker?

If so, another mic is the trick. If you want to capture it the way you're hearing it in the room then forego the close mic.

Guitarists, I've found, rarely actually have any idea what their amp sounds like - only what it sounds like in the room - off-axis and bouncing all around.

I mean no offense with the comments.

What offense are you talking about... Thanks for the reply. I like the tone of my amp when I'm away 5 feet away from it playing guitar. I never put my ear next to the grill. It's too loud.

[85db]

Originally Posted by max cooper

Maybe try an omni?

What model?

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by 85db

What model?

Anything. I use an AT4050 set on omni mode sometimes.

For my latest project, I've been using either a 57/421 or 57/e609 on the grill (depending on which guitarist is recording) suplimented with a AT4050 in the room. If I find I'm losing the "true sound" of the player in the mix, I pull up on the AT4050 fader. If you'd like to get a more natural sound without incorporating too much of the room, try recording in a really dead room or a larger iso booth (with serious bass trapping.) Alternatively, you could move in the room mic to about a foot or two out and try to capture the meat of your tone with it, and use a close mic just to highlight presence/sizzle. You might need to use delay or something like an IBP if you're using multiple mics really close to the amp, tho, depending on which mics you end up using in the end and how you're panning them.

You could also try micing from behind the guitar cabinet (just remember to flip phase!)

[struck27]

For what it's worth comming from a total noobie, I love the sound of my amp when I use a 57 up close and my NT1 about 10 to 18" away. For me the NT1 just captures that feeling of space. And it really sounds close to what it dose in the room.

[warhead]

I think the answer starts with "rib" and ends with "bon".

War

[85db]

Originally Posted by warhead

I think the answer starts with "rib" and ends with "bon".

War

Which rib....... bon?

[warhead]

There are so many that rock.

I reach for the sE Electronics R1 in my place most times.

The AEA R92 is awesome as well.

The Crowley & Tripp Naked Eye or Proscenium rock.

Any of those would likely make one smile.

War

[Harley-OIART]

Ribbon or something from Earthworks

[not_so_new]

For me, my new fav is a R121 blended with a good old 57. Nice combo.

Ya know.... I know I am gonna get allot of flack for this but here goes.

For the most part I don't give a toss about the sound of the amp in the room.

Let me preface that a bit. I do care if there are any strange room modes that might be helped by moving the amp a few feet here or there and I do care if there is a bad cable or a bad speaker etc.

Other than that I realized one day I am actually worried about the sound of the guitar in the studio speakers (no sh*t)! Now I spend my time moving mics (or having someone else move them) and listening from the control room. When I get the mics were I want the I worry about how much distortion and what EQ I need from the control room. What guitar effects that I might put before the amp, I worry about that from the control room. I keep the amp head with me in the CR and do everything from there.

Once I know that the speakers are not ripped, cabinet placement in the room is okay, that there are no problems with cables and what not I don't really ever go back and listen in the room again.

Everyone has a different style I guess.

[drundall]

What style of music are you talking about? I think that affects the answer greatly.

[85db]

Originally Posted by drundall

What style of music are you talking about? I think that affects the answer greatly.

Guitar oriented rock music (think Satriani, Vai, Johnson, etcetera). I'm after a BIG sound that'd fils a lot of space in the mix yet wouldn't be overbearing.

One complicating factor is a multi-amp setup: 1 dry and two wet cabs. Lots of effects/processing used.

I'll probably need to do multi-mic'ing on the dry cab... one near the grill, another in the back (phase inverted), third a few feet away. Would be great to know what mic combinations worked for others.

[swan]

i don't know where i read this, but Ed Cherney puts his thumb on the end of the guitar cable leading to the amp so the amp gives that noise...then he gets down on all fours and moves his ear around the cone until he finds the spot where the noise sounds the 'best' (ie fullest, harmonically rich). That's the spot he puts his mic.

makes sense to me, i just haven't had too much time to experiment with the technique since i heard it, but in the past, i've had luck with the 57/421 combo and an LDC or ribbon wildcard.

[drundall]

Originally Posted by 85db

Guitar oriented rock music (think Satriani, Vai, Johnson, etcetera). I'm after a BIG sound that'd fils a lot of space in the mix yet wouldn't be overbearing.

One complicating factor is a multi-amp setup: 1 dry and two wet cabs. Lots of effects/processing used.

I'll probably need to do multi-mic'ing on the dry cab... one near the grill, another in the back (phase inverted), third a few feet away. Would be great to know what mic combinations worked for others.

Hmmm...
Vai and Satriani are the first to come to mind when I think of a big sound. Johnson maybe. If you have a LDC you can experiment with it back a ways from the cab. Fuller but less in-your-face.

[85db]

What are the LDC mic's that are know for its faithful reproduction and suitability for mic'ing guitar amps? A few choices would be great. My preamps are Vintech Neve clones.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by 85db

Guitar oriented rock music (think Satriani, Vai, Johnson, etcetera). I'm after a BIG sound that'd fils a lot of space in the mix yet wouldn't be overbearing.

One complicating factor is a multi-amp setup: 1 dry and two wet cabs. Lots of effects/processing used.

I'll probably need to do multi-mic'ing on the dry cab... one near the grill, another in the back (phase inverted), third a few feet away. Would be great to know what mic combinations worked for others.

If it were me, I'd start with one on the front of each cab & phase-match the two wet cab mics to the dry one (one at a time, of course). Is your wet cab 100% or mix? If it's running through a digital box to do a wet/dry mix, there's a chance that the unit is inducing a significant delay which will create phase difficulties when mixed with with the dry cab. With a guitar sound, even a 1 millisecond difference between mics will change the tone from thick to cloudy.

If you're going after a big sound that gives you the feeling that the cabinet's tone is coming out of the studio monitors, phase cancellations will be your enemy. I urge you not to join the "hang & fly" crowd -- and really think about how those waves are gonna add up.

Are your wet cabs doing long time-based FX (delay or reverb) or flange/phase/chorus (short) FX? If the cabs are 100% wet and are only long delays or reverbs, the phase issues will be negated somewhat. I have a feeling that this is not the case.

And the "big" sound you seem to be going for is in-your-face and present (i.e.: not distant), so it's gonna be "built" on close micing -- room mics won't be the "heart" of the sound.

Some players do their processing post-mic but before the A/D converter. Not that you need to if you're trying to capture your "live" sound...it's just a thought.

[85db]

Is your wet cab 100% or mix? If it's running through a digital box to do a wet/dry mix, there's a chance that the unit is inducing a significant delay which will create phase difficulties when mixed with with the dry cab. With a guitar sound, even a 1 millisecond difference between mics will change the tone from thick to cloudy.

If you're going after a big sound that gives you the feeling that the cabinet's tone is coming out of the studio monitors, phase cancellations will be your enemy.

That's true... a processor like Eventide will introduce a delay due to A/D + processing + and D/A. Perhaps the dry signal could be run through a standalone delay line? I remember seeing one of those Yamaha rack units... Another thing I could think of is ofsetting the recorded tracks against each other.

Are your wet cabs doing long time-based FX (delay or reverb) or flange/phase/chorus (short) FX? If the cabs are 100% wet and are only long delays or reverbs, the phase issues will be negated somewhat. I have a feeling that this is not the case.

I currently use my wet cabs for three types of effects:

1. Long time-based stereo delay/reverb
2. Short time-based chorus/phase
3. Near simultaneous/concurrent effects. For instance, the wets might do highly processed harmonizing/pitch-shifting (Eventide) while the dry cab does the dry. The tone is hugh and I'd love to be able to capture it faithfully.

Some players do their processing post-mic but before the A/D converter. Not that you need to if you're trying to capture your "live" sound...it's just a thought.

What kind of useful processing can be done after mic before the A/D? The only thing I can think of is EQ or compression.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Read Slipperman's Recording Distorted Guitars thread.

IIRC, Slipperman will only use a 57.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by blackcatdigi

IIRC, Slipperman will only use a 57.

That's just where he elects to start the (one-way) discussion. And he's hopping on tangents all over the place. Of course, with SM, the tangents are the best part.

[KrisNY]

For what it's worth -

I was doing a guitar session this weekend. I've always had success with a 421 + 57 combo, but I'd heard good things about adding an LDC farther back from the cab, so I tried it with an MXL V69. Did not like it at all. Something about blending the "un-natural" close mics with the more "natural" sound of the amp sound felt really weird. I ended up canning the MXL and going with what I'm comfortable with.

[cdog]

I find mics sound pretty unnatural at anything closer than 1' to a cab.

Too much proximity effect.

[tamasdragon]

Beyer ribbons. They are overlooked, but they are fantastic.

Tamas Dragon

[recky]

You're not going to believe this: EV 635a, about 20 cm from the speaker. It's an omni dynamic, i.e. no proximity effect and positioning is easy. If I'm after capturing what I'm hearing in the room (most of the time), this mic gives me just what I want.

I'm not particularly keen on multi-mic set-ups. It's too much hassle when you can get away with using just one mic....

Cheers,

Recky