Close mic'ed snares... do they sound knda flat and lifeless?

[tubedude]

I'm still dealing with the close mic snare thing. It seems no matter what mic I use on what snare, they never really sound much like a snare does from a few feet back. They sound more like a tuned cardboard box.
Do close mic'ed snares just kind of sound a little weird in general?
How about everyone post a sample of one snare hit, close mic'ed, and lets see.
I gotta make a CD of one first and then bring it here, but I plan to before this thread dies (which wont be long)

I challenge one of you bored people with some time on your hands can take my snare sample and make it badass.

[ctms777]

A snare sound usually is a combination of close, overhead and roomics. Consider the drumkit as one instrument. A close-miked snare usually misses something, but your problems could also come from a lot of other factors, such as shitty snare or poor micplacement.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by tubedude

I'm still dealing with the close mic snare thing. It seems no matter what mic I use on what snare, they never really sound much like a snare does from a few feet back. They sound more like a tuned cardboard box.
Do close mic'ed snares just kind of sound a little weird in general?
How about everyone post a sample of one snare hit, close mic'ed, and lets see.
I gotta make a CD of one first and then bring it here, but I plan to before this thread dies (which wont be long)

I challenge one of you bored people with some time on your hands can take my snare sample and make it badass.

Hi Tubedude,
This is a cool thread...the answer is YES, when the close mic is solo'd without any EQ.
Do you want posts of this solo'd close mic snare hit with or without EQ and effect proccessing?

[seaneldon]

first off, it's gotta sound great in the room. if the snare is typically your problem drum, just walk around the room while the drummer is smoking up and hit the drum in different parts of the room. figure out where it sounds "best", and stop walking. put the snare down right there. have the drummer set the rest of the kit up around it.

i like to hang my overhead mics and room mic(s) first. i get an idea of the bulk of the tone the drum is giving off and work with it. if it's not satisfying, i'll start buy tuning the snare a little differently, maybe even different for every song. one song might have the top head looser than the bottom, the next song the other way around, the next song significantly lower pitched, the next song a completely different drum, etc.

let's say you have the drum sounding great in those 3-4 mics you just put up. awesome. more than half the battle is won. now figure out a way to augment or exaggerate qualities of the drum you want that might not be so apparent in the room/overhead mics alone. for instance, if i want a little more snap crackle and pop, i'll stick a mic (i'll leave that decision up to you) on the side of the shell, making sure there's no air holes near the mic. there's your crack. maybe i've got plenty of crack and i want some meat/balls/whathaveyou. this is where the typical "30-45 degree angle dynamic mic 2-3 inches off the drum" technique comes in handy. a combination of the two might be great.

i tend to stay away from bottom micing, especially on a snare drum, just because i don't personally think it does any real purpose. it really just gets the annoying disgusting rattle of the snares and can be distracting if done improperly (which i've found it almost always is). someone who is watching a band is not listening to the bottom of the drum. the drummer isn't listening to the bottom of the drum. why should i record the bottom of the drum?

yeah, using the right mics and mic pres and what have you plays some role in the whole thing, but it's got a lot more to do with the room, the kit, the player, the song, etc.

hope this could be of some help!

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

i tend to stay away from bottom micing, especially on a snare drum, just because i don't personally think it does any real purpose.

This really depends on the part being played. For Country/Americana stuff I often mic the bottom of the snare as soon as the drummer plays a 'train' type snare pattern.

The bottom mic can really bring out the accents and 'ring' of the snare part.

But in general terms I think that much like kick drum, a great snare sound always comes from different places, especially the OHs.

To the original poster: Maybe you spend too much time soloing the snare track? Listen to it in context, not just the whole kit but the whole song.

Substracting EQ can be your friend. I often do it in the mix and maybe take out a lot of 300k on the drum bus.

[dbbubba]

Having mic'd snare drums for many years I'll tell you that a properly mic'd snare drum by itself is almost always wierd sounding to me.
I still have to remind myself while I am gettng the drumsound going to not dwell on the sound of the snare mic by itself.
In fact, my general method is to have the drummer play a solid beat playing ONLY the kick, snare and hi-hat. I'll then deal with the kick mic(s), snare mic(s) and OHs to get a god balance going. I'll have the drummer switch to ride after a while and deal with that side of the cymbal set.

I'll tell you why I never use a bottom snare mic...
The sound of the bottom of the snare brings too much intimacy into play.
In other words, the sound of drumer playing in a room form a listener's normal perspective will not include much of the snare's bottom head sound.
Why should it? In a normal kit that sound points down and isn't heard that much. That is the way it should be balanced in the final perspective, too. There are sounds all over a kit that are not heard (like the wierd sound fro the side of cymbals or a hi-hat in particular.) You don't normally mic those, yet they are there!
It's a case of over mic'ing and done often because the engineer CAN!

Danny Brown

[George Necola]

who cares for real miced snare when you have triggers and drumagog:D

e..

no, in reality for metal, I just put the mics on the side to record the rimshots and the energy. the rest is for drumagog.

cheers

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I'll tell you why I never use a bottom snare mic...
The sound of the bottom of the snare brings too much intimacy into play.
In other words, the sound of drumer playing in a room form a listener's normal perspective will not include much of the snare's bottom head sound.
Why should it? In a normal kit that sound points down and isn't heard that much. That is the way it should be balanced in the final perspective, too.

That 'intimacy' is often the very thing I want. I guess it all started with singers using microphones in live performances. That's also not natural in a way but it creates intimacy and lets you use proximity effect to your advantage.

I think that's the very reason recordings exist. To create an illusion much like you would in a novel or a movie.

But I also try to keep things 'natural' by mixing drums from audience perspective mostly but while the 'natural' sound you hear in the room surely is very important, it never can be fully respresented in a recording.

I guess that binaural micing would be your closest best if you're going for a 'true' sound and it might be great if you're doing say jazz.

[C/G]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

i tend to stay away from bottom micing, especially on a snare drum, just because i don't personally think it does any real purpose.

Sure it does, it makes a real crappy sound.

Mic'ing the side of the shell is a better approach IMO.

[PapillonIrl]

What mics are you guys using for shell micing ? And in what patterns ?

Found any interesting positions regarding usable bleed from hihat or kick beater in same mic, or do you try and get more rejection ?

Thanks,

Nathan

[C/G]

Originally Posted by PapillonIrl

What mics are you guys using for shell micing ? And in what patterns ?

Found any interesting positions regarding usable bleed from hihat or kick beater in same mic, or do you try and get more rejection ?

Thanks,

Nathan

AKG 451 with a CK1 capsule or SM 57. Whatever is left over. Beyer M160 could be cool since it is hyper cardioid or a Beyer M201 will work too.

[chymer]

Originally Posted by Colin Gaucher

Sure it does, it makes a real crappy sound.

Mic'ing the side of the shell is a better approach IMO.

Crappy sound? on its own maybe, but i think its an important part of a snare sound, the wires add alot and enhance the ghosts as well.
If i mic tha back of my guitar cab, which I do always, it sounds crappy on its own but blended in sounds fantastic. but wait, the back faces away from the listener so it should be forbidden!!!!shouldnt it?
I think the bottom should always be miced, yes because it can be, but I think the bottom adds a lot, but I produce rock so maybe its not useful for other styles.
Chymer

[Chris]

Can someone post a picture of shell micing? I miss the crack of the snare more often than not and would like to try it out but I don't know where to mic it. Are we talking an inch away? A foot? Straight at the side of the snare?

[C/G]

Originally Posted by chymer

Crappy sound? on its own maybe, but i think its an important part of a snare sound, the wires add alot and enhance the ghosts as well.
If i mic tha back of my guitar cab, which I do always, it sounds crappy on its own but blended in sounds fantastic. but wait, the back faces away from the listener so it should be forbidden!!!!shouldnt it?
I think the bottom should always be miced, yes because it can be, but I think the bottom adds a lot, but I produce rock so maybe its not useful for other styles.
Chymer

I guess I should have been more clear. On it's own I hate it, even blended I am not a fan, but I mic hihats and a lot of people don't. If we all did the exact same thing, life would be boring.

I like mic'ing the back of cabinets as well, same with open back combos. Mic'ing the under side of snare isn't forbidden, it is just that all the time I have done it, even blending it with the top snare mic I always hate it. I get a bit of the wires by having the snare mic just peek over the rim so I get a bit of the wire's sound bleding in that way. Same with mic'ing the shell (more resonate sound and less splat from the wires). It's just not my bag to mic the underside. I do rock as well. Just different strokes, that's all.

[Musiclab]

When you mic the snare from the top with the mic pointing down on the head, you are close micing the head of the drum, hence head boiing, and snare drum you have to eq
to death. What I do is place the mic as if I'm micing the shell, but then I bring it up so that the capsule is poking over the top of the snare and back about an inch or so. If you just mic the shell you wont get enough attack out of it. But if it pokes just over the top
you get the attack. Then I take a second mic and mic the shell but down closer to the snares. This gives you the top without that ugly ratty ass thing you get from under the snare. There's a picture of this in this thread : Do your snares usually sound flat and weird before major processing?

[C/G]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

. What I do is place the mic as if I'm micing the shell, but then I bring it up so that the capsule is poking over the top of the snare and back about an inch or so. If you just mic the shell you wont get enough attack out of it. But if it pokes just over the top
you get the attack. Then I take a second mic and mic the shell but down closer to the snares. This gives you the top without that ugly ratty ass thing you get from under the snare.

That is what I was trying to describe in my post above but Musiclab did a way better job of putting my thought to print than I did.

[Cheech]

Yeah I guess we all have different methods, because I used to never mic the bottom of the snare, then when I started I was able to get what I felt like I was always missing. I don’t use much of it in the mix, and I always use a condenser to pick up a little more extended top end.

What’s funny is sometimes I find it helps to bring out some attack in the kick as well. I usually gate the bottom, mic, but the kick always comes through, and sometimes when it does its sweet. Not all the time, but sometimes...LOL!

I would not suggest NOT trying a mic out under the snare just because THEORETICALLY speaking it does not make sense. If you have enough channels available, experiment and see what ya get.
Oh you may want to go ahead and flip the phase of that bottom mic also.

Good luck!

[uncle duncan]

If you put a mic out in front of the kit, 4 or 5 feet high, 3 to 5 feet away from the kick, the whole kit comes alive. It helps to put on isolation headphones and find the sweet spot that gets the juicy tone from the snare drum. PZM's on the back wall behind the drummer also help. Without these extra mics the kit is going to sound pretty bland. Room mics from farther away could be helpful, but then you're bringing the room into the picture, and if your room sucks, they won't be useable.

[Musiclab]

I think it goes whithout saying you need overheads and room mics, also sometimes you get some extra top for the snare in the hat mic. You can't think of a drumset as anything but one instrument regardless of how many tracks it takes up. The bleed is a big part, BUT good mic placement will get you a better sound to start with.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by tubedude

I'm still dealing with the close mic snare thing. It seems no matter what mic I use on what snare, they never really sound much like a snare does from a few feet back. They sound more like a tuned cardboard box.
Do close mic'ed snares just kind of sound a little weird in general?
How about everyone post a sample of one snare hit, close mic'ed, and lets see.
I gotta make a CD of one first and then bring it here, but I plan to before this thread dies (which wont be long)

I challenge one of you bored people with some time on your hands can take my snare sample and make it badass.

You'd be surprised how much you can alter the sound of an original snare with the right EQ and compression, or a Transient Designer. That said, usually the close miked sound is there to give you the initial attack. Then you use the overheads and/or room mics to give you the body or explosion of the snare.

[planet red]

I used to hate bottom miking snares til I started backing the mic off the bottom of the drum so its 4 to 5 inches away. Now it adds nice depth and dimension without the papery sound... I prefer a 421 or 441 if theres one around.

Without it (for me atleast) I just get a dead sounding pop that needs tons of eq. With it I get a much fuller more 3d sound..