Adding length to a snare...

imacgreg · 21st November 2003

I'm currently mixing a hard rock/punk band demo in PT6 and I'm having problems with my snare sound. I have plenty of pop, but I was talking to my boss and he said I need more length to the snare sound, and not reverb. I did mic the top and bottom of the snare, both with 57s. The bottom mic has plenty of the snares, but like my boss said, I think it's too short.

What do you guys do to lengthen a snare sound after the fact? I want the snare drum to be loud and present in the mix, but right now, to get that happening I have to have my snare way too loud. Do you guys add samples that have some length? Any compression tricks? Is this where I might want to reamp the snare?

Thanks...

Ian

**mwagener** · 21st November 2003

try the SPL transient designer. With the attack knob fairly far to the left and the sustain knob fairly far to the right, should do the trick. Re-amping is always an option too. Make sure the re-amped snare and the one on tape are tuned favourably.

swede · 21st November 2003

Mult (or copy) the snare channel and put a compressor on it.
Adjust for no(zero) attack ,high ratio,slow release.
Now you should only hear the snare ambience because the compressor turns down the attack and then raise the ambience from the snare.
This will make the snare sounding longer
Mix to taste.

chrisso · 21st November 2003

I agree with MWagener......who wouldn't?
Additionally I've found the Spectrasonics 610 adds a lot to snare sounds.
I see a few people trigger 'tails' samples instead of using reverb also.
I sometimes mult the snare into a box like the Tech21 which has a strange kind of internal compression. It's also mid rangey and you have complete control over how much grit and dirt you want to add.

Jules · 21st November 2003

All good tips, I will toss the Sony TransMod onto the suggestion pile too!

jbuntz · 21st November 2003

The waves one works okay too. Never used the SPL one though. If the snare track is simple enough, you can mult it with a sample. That works better than anything when it works. When it doesn't work it sounds like a drum machine. You can't undampen an already recorded snare.

BobbyPeru · 21st November 2003

You can always side-chain gate 1 or 2 room mics with it as well.

Bobby Peru
Milwaukee, WI

imacgreg · 21st November 2003

All good ideas. I really want to try the transient designer (or work-alikes) but I don't have access to one. Bummer... Any other cool ideas?

ian

silkysmell · 22nd November 2003

there is vst on www.digitalfishphones.com called dominion it should do the trick too.....

imacgreg · 22nd November 2003

Ok, so in the future, when I am tracking, how do I capture the right length in the first place? I am using 57's on both top and bottom of the snare. Should I compress the bottom with a fast attack, slow release to tape? How would tuning the drum change the length? I assume I would loosen the snares? I'm not a drummer, so tuning drums is quite foreign. Maybe I should try something like a SD condenser on the bottom.

Ian

Schnert · 22nd November 2003

The "lenght" must be in the snares in the first place. You may amplify the decay with compression though.
I don't like the crack-attack of bottom mics on snare, so if I need more snares I'd compress the hell out of the attack on such a mike (If you need more snares I'd suggest using a mike on the side of the drum instead, sounds better there :-)
For some artificial lenght on a snare, you might try to use white noise, or whatever noise you find suitable, and let the snare open a gate/expander for this.

DirkB · 22nd November 2003

Quote:

Ok, so in the future, when I am tracking, how do I capture the right length in the first place?

Well, try not to dampen the batterhead with anything, let it ring. I find it easier to shorten the sustain than to lengthen it. Also, recording a room mic and compress it to pieces can help...

Good luck,
Dirk

ixnys · 22nd November 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by DirkB
Well, try not to dampen the batterhead with anything, let it ring. I find it easier to shorten the sustain than to lengthen it. Also, recording a room mic and compress it to pieces can help...

Good luck,
Dirk

Definately!!! The mic snare might just be to pick up that initial attack and twat, but a nuked room mic pushed up just a bit under the drums will give you that snare length. For example, just recently I took my room mic and put it in the bathroom and nuked it. When I raised it under my drum tracks it gave the snare a natural smooth decay and reverb.

mac black · 22nd November 2003

Here is a good one, merge the snare track into a new file and time stretch that file by 200-400%. On the stretched file insert a compressor and key that compressor to be triggered by the original short snare track. Play with the attack and release and with the knee to get a perfect longer snare.

If you cant get the snares to perfectly fade into one another then you make a new file from the ducked snare and chop it to start every time the original snare has finished and cross fade them for a.... perfect long snare.

If you still can’t get the snare longer perfectly then ...I have to go to bed now, it’s late and you probably on a new session so have a nice weekend

Mac

thethrillfactor · 22nd November 2003

This approach has worked for me in the past:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthre...01&pagenumber=3

thethrillfactor · 22nd November 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
This approach has worked for me in the past:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthre...01&pagenumber=3

Sorry, maybe this works better:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...1&pagenumber=3

Fletcher · 22nd November 2003

I don't have a 'transient designer' [though I should have one in the next week or two]... but I do have several RNC's... I usually go with a quick attack, a slow release and a ration of 6:1 or higher... bring the return back on a separate fader (maybe even add a tad of reverb from the "compressed/envelop modified" signal)... blend to taste... move on.

Sofa King · 22nd November 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisso
I agree with MWagener......who wouldn't?
Additionally I've found the Spectrasonics 610 adds a lot to snare sounds.
I see a few people trigger 'tails' samples instead of using reverb .

Ilike this, do it often

Jules · 23rd November 2003

I'm looking forwards to hearing about Fletchers experience with the Transvetite Designer!

Jay Kahrs · 23rd November 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Schnert
For some artificial lenght on a snare, you might try to use white noise, or whatever noise you find suitable, and let the snare open a gate/expander for this.

Bingo. Patch the white noise into a gate and key the gate off the snare. Then you have complete control over the length of the snare sound. EQ the noise to taste and you should be golden. If you need more sustain from the top head ring then it can be controled with a compressor.

imacgreg · 24th November 2003

Ok, here's how we ended up getting a good snare sound. It turns out my bottom snare sound was way too "rattley", so we used a gate to tame the excess rattle. Then we compressed the top of snare mic and adjusted the attack to get the proper crack. Then, I added a sample of a pretty balanced snare to just help it out a little. Turned out to be a pretty damn good snare. Thanks for the suggestions.

ian

JordanDRUM · 24th November 2003

and if none of this works, have some someone overdub a vocal where they are either yelling "pop" with the snare hits or coughing with the snare hits.

seriously though, you can use the harvey gerst trick. overdub a cowbell hitting with snare drum (2 and 4 - the backbeats) and then mix it where it is just audible and then pull it back a little more. your snare will suddenly have an incredible body and new life. it really works.

Cabo Robo · 24th November 2003

I agree w/ Michael. I'm able to do things now with my Transient Designers that are totally amazing. This box is has become a must have for me. Also, I have been selling these like crazy. If someone in the area wants to borrow one for demo, let me know.

Thanks
Rob Dennis
Rack-N-Roll Audio,Inc
Nashville,TN
615-244-6499

petermeechanuk · 24th November 2003

I had a transient designer for over two years and used it in a mix once.

I found it didn't really work in the situation described in this thread. If there's nothing there to start with, you can't make decay out of thin air. It will make the decay that's there louder but I never found the results in adding decay/room that pleasing.

It was much better (obviously) at removing room/decay. However my preference to get it right at record stage meant I only needed it once. On this occasion it did however work wonders. A room mic somehow (actually I know how but won't admit it) got merged in with the HiHat mic at record stage. I was able to remove the rooom sound completely with a combination of EQ and Transient Designer.

-Peter

henrybob · 24th November 2003

The Triple C in Envelope Mode does something comparable to the SPL Transcient Designer .

21st November 2003	#1
imacgreg Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Echo Park, Los Angeles Posts: 440 Thread Starter	Adding length to a snare... I'm currently mixing a hard rock/punk band demo in PT6 and I'm having problems with my snare sound. I have plenty of pop, but I was talking to my boss and he said I need more length to the snare sound, and not reverb. I did mic the top and bottom of the snare, both with 57s. The bottom mic has plenty of the snares, but like my boss said, I think it's too short. What do you guys do to lengthen a snare sound after the fact? I want the snare drum to be loud and present in the mix, but right now, to get that happening I have to have my snare way too loud. Do you guys add samples that have some length? Any compression tricks? Is this where I might want to reamp the snare? Thanks... Ian __________________ ---------- Ian MacGregor http://twitter.com/#!/blackwatchsound www.standard-audio.com - Home of the Level-Or, 500 series Level-loc inspired limiter Visit Standard Audio on Facebook

21st November 2003	#2
mwagener High End Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Music City USA Posts: 3,582	try the SPL transient designer. With the attack knob fairly far to the left and the sustain knob fairly far to the right, should do the trick. Re-amping is always an option too. Make sure the re-amped snare and the one on tape are tuned favourably. __________________ Michael Wagener http://www.michaelwagener.com Next Production Workshop scheduled for February 4th through 10th, 2012 Please read reviews about the production workshops here Click here for production workshop DVD updates.

22nd November 2003	#14
mac black Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: london Posts: 2,787 2 Reviews written	Here is a good one, merge the snare track into a new file and time stretch that file by 200-400%. On the stretched file insert a compressor and key that compressor to be triggered by the original short snare track. Play with the attack and release and with the knee to get a perfect longer snare. If you cant get the snares to perfectly fade into one another then you make a new file from the ducked snare and chop it to start every time the original snare has finished and cross fade them for a.... perfect long snare. If you still can’t get the snare longer perfectly then ...I have to go to bed now, it’s late and you probably on a new session so have a nice weekend Mac __________________ "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil" ... - Thomas Mann

22nd November 2003	#17
Fletcher member no 666 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 9,464	I don't have a 'transient designer' [though I should have one in the next week or two]... but I do have several RNC's... I usually go with a quick attack, a slow release and a ration of 6:1 or higher... bring the return back on a separate fader (maybe even add a tad of reverb from the "compressed/envelop modified" signal)... blend to taste... move on. __________________ CN Fletcher Professional Affiliations: R/E/P Professional Recording Engineer and Producer forums - serious hobbyists welcome TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik SoundPure.com mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33 We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light

24th November 2003	#22
JordanDRUM Gear interested Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: LONE STAR STATE Posts: 25	and if none of this works, have some someone overdub a vocal where they are either yelling "pop" with the snare hits or coughing with the snare hits. seriously though, you can use the harvey gerst trick. overdub a cowbell hitting with snare drum (2 and 4 - the backbeats) and then mix it where it is just audible and then pull it back a little more. your snare will suddenly have an incredible body and new life. it really works. __________________ Hey buddy, Lose the 'tude and roll the tape.

21st November 2003	#3
swede Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 43	Mult (or copy) the snare channel and put a compressor on it. Adjust for no(zero) attack ,high ratio,slow release. Now you should only hear the snare ambience because the compressor turns down the attack and then raise the ambience from the snare. This will make the snare sounding longer Mix to taste.

21st November 2003	#4
chrisso Gear Guru Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oz Posts: 15,356	I agree with MWagener......who wouldn't? Additionally I've found the Spectrasonics 610 adds a lot to snare sounds. I see a few people trigger 'tails' samples instead of using reverb also. I sometimes mult the snare into a box like the Tech21 which has a strange kind of internal compression. It's also mid rangey and you have complete control over how much grit and dirt you want to add.

21st November 2003	#5
Jules Gearslutz.com admin Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A Yank in London, UK Posts: 17,356 1 Review written	All good tips, I will toss the Sony TransMod onto the suggestion pile too!

21st November 2003	#6
jbuntz Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,716	The waves one works okay too. Never used the SPL one though. If the snare track is simple enough, you can mult it with a sample. That works better than anything when it works. When it doesn't work it sounds like a drum machine. You can't undampen an already recorded snare.

21st November 2003	#7
BobbyPeru Gear addict Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 402	You can always side-chain gate 1 or 2 room mics with it as well. Bobby Peru Milwaukee, WI

22nd November 2003	#9
silkysmell Gear interested Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: berlin, germany Posts: 28	there is vst on www.digitalfishphones.com called dominion it should do the trick too.....

22nd November 2003	#11
Schnert Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 148	The "lenght" must be in the snares in the first place. You may amplify the decay with compression though. I don't like the crack-attack of bottom mics on snare, so if I need more snares I'd compress the hell out of the attack on such a mike (If you need more snares I'd suggest using a mike on the side of the drum instead, sounds better there :-) For some artificial lenght on a snare, you might try to use white noise, or whatever noise you find suitable, and let the snare open a gate/expander for this.

22nd November 2003	#15
thethrillfactor Gear Guru Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 14,176	This approach has worked for me in the past: http://gearslutz.com/board/showthre...01&pagenumber=3

23rd November 2003	#19
Jules Gearslutz.com admin Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A Yank in London, UK Posts: 17,356 1 Review written	I'm looking forwards to hearing about Fletchers experience with the Transvetite Designer!

24th November 2003	#23
Cabo Robo Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nashville,TN Posts: 51	I agree w/ Michael. I'm able to do things now with my Transient Designers that are totally amazing. This box is has become a must have for me. Also, I have been selling these like crazy. If someone in the area wants to borrow one for demo, let me know. Thanks Rob Dennis Rack-N-Roll Audio,Inc Nashville,TN 615-244-6499

24th November 2003	#24
petermeechanuk Gear Head Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: NYC (Originally from London) Posts: 62	I had a transient designer for over two years and used it in a mix once. I found it didn't really work in the situation described in this thread. If there's nothing there to start with, you can't make decay out of thin air. It will make the decay that's there louder but I never found the results in adding decay/room that pleasing. It was much better (obviously) at removing room/decay. However my preference to get it right at record stage meant I only needed it once. On this occasion it did however work wonders. A room mic somehow (actually I know how but won't admit it) got merged in with the HiHat mic at record stage. I was able to remove the rooom sound completely with a combination of EQ and Transient Designer. -Peter

24th November 2003	#25
henrybob Gear nut Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 83	The Triple C in Envelope Mode does something comparable to the SPL Transcient Designer .

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