Tom mics minimal bleed
Old 2nd October 2013
  #1
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Tom mics minimal bleed

I've been using 57s & audix D2s forever on toms. They get by, but the bleed for modern pop & metal is no good. Most of the time I sample replace. Gates are too touchy and lose ghost hits, etc...

I'm looking for something with a very tight & focused pickup pattern with a small footprint.

Any recommendations without breaking the bank???
Old 2nd October 2013
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_gant View Post
I've been using 57s & audix D2s forever on toms. They get by, but the bleed for modern pop & metal is no good. Most of the time I sample replace. Gates are too touchy and lose ghost hits, etc...

I'm looking for something with a very tight & focused pickup pattern with a small footprint.

Any recommendations without breaking the bank???
m201
Old 2nd October 2013
  #3
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edva's Avatar
Atm 250.
Quote
1
Old 2nd October 2013
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
m201
+2
Old 2nd October 2013
  #5
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How bout the EV N/D468? I haven't used many tom mics, but these really did it for me - especially concerning the bleed.

Only other that I liked better was the Oktava 012's. Great sound, but I believe you won't like the bleed.
Old 2nd October 2013
  #6
WKG
Gear addict
M179's are very nice on toms and have great rejection. Not real small but easy to work with.
Old 2nd October 2013
  #7
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Dynamics can be nice for a bit more isolation, but they don't sound nearly as good as many large diaphragm condensers (speaking generally), or a Josephson e22s (small diaphragm but perfectly tailored for close drum micing).

Are you working on a DAW? Why not just delete between the hits of each drum? I've done that for years and once you bring up the overheads and the mix it sounds very natural.
Old 2nd October 2013
  #8
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421s with a primacoustic crash guard
Old 2nd October 2013
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Atm 250.
+1 these are really good

the older AT25 work well also
Old 2nd October 2013
  #10
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If you can afford the Josephssons E22S, that's probably as far you can get for this.
Old 2nd October 2013
  #11
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Give more attention to placement. With cardioid dynamics, you can angle each tom mic away from the adjacent drum.

Bi-directional mics provide excellent, almost scary rejection in the nulls. Some condensers in figure-8 can do the trick as long as you have some place 'good' to point the back side of the mic at. A well-treated room, IOW.

I remember a guy showing me a technique for placing tom mics that involved hitting tom A while you moved tom B's mic around for the 'most rejection'. I thought it was interesting, but "best pickup" trumps "most rejection" in my book.

Another thing my book likes to say is "embrace the bleed". Learn to work with it. Choose mics with good off-axis response. Good Bleed is not only better than Bad Bleed, it can be better than No Bleed at all. Up to a point, a bit of bleed gives your drum kit size and power.
Old 2nd October 2013
  #12
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If a cymbal is 180 degrees behind a super/hyper card, you'll get more bleed than with a regular cardioid. Watch that ass end...
Old 2nd October 2013
  #13
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I've had good luck with hypercardioids. Usually Sennheiser 441. On the current session a bunch of Beyers - M88 on floor tom and 201s on the racks - are rejecting cymbals pretty well.
Among LDCs, the AKG 414 offers a lot of different patterns (9 on the current model) to solve placement problems. And it sounds good.
Old 2nd October 2013
  #14
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Good, workhorse, affordable, durable, small-footprint, supercardioid mics that reject bleed really well, great for toms and snare: Shure Beta56A

These also have a good deal of upper mids which help accentuate drum attack. Great for pop, rock or metal in any case. I use these for my live kit and also sometimes for recording. They're indestructible and very easy to position. They always deliver the goods.

Though more often for recording I use Sennheiser MD421s on toms. These are technically cardioids and thus theoretically have a wider pick-up pattern than a super or hypercardioid, but for whatever reason they seem to reject a lot of bleed anyway. In assorted tests, the 421s seemed to have rejected way more bleed than just about any other cardioid tried and in some cases nearly matched the bleed rejection performance of some super and hypercardioids.

I use the 421s more often for recording because they yield a more natural tom sound overall, very flattering to well-tuned toms. Nice beef and punch. No hype. The Beta56As are a bit heavy in the attack which could be seen as "hype", which always works for pop or metal in any case... and with a bit of eq-ing will work for anything really. The 421s are just a bit more "fine" and "accurate", better for classic rock, jazz, prog, etc.

But the 421s also cost over $200 more each than the 56s, which makes the 56s an incredible value. I think I have like ten or more 56s in the locker, they're just great to have around, true "swiss-army drum mics". For toms and snare they'll work every time, on stage or on tape.

With either the 56s or 421s, in some cases I still need to clean some bleed out of the tom and snare tracks, depends.

Also make sure that your room is treated well because a poorly treated room can GREATLY contribute to drum mic bleed. This is a big deal, don't overlook it. If you have hard surfaces nearby (low ceiling, nearby walls) that are not covered with proper heavy absorption, you'll have a mic bleed-fest no matter what mics you use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
...Give more attention to placement....
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pulse View Post
If a cymbal is 180 degrees behind a super/hyper card, you'll get more bleed than with a regular cardioid. Watch that ass end...
....and this too!

Old 4th January 2014
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctorgun View Post
421s with a primacoustic crash guard

How does that mount? I have a crash guard but it is designed for sm57 type mics. Do they make one specifically for the 421?
Old 4th January 2014
  #16
Gear Head
I've been digging my Beta 181 (s) on toms lately. Really minimal bleed on a floor tom track even with the ride positioned about 3.5 inches above the rim. Very small too, so positioning is a breeze.
Old 6th January 2014
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nu-tra View Post
How does that mount? I have a crash guard but it is designed for sm57 type mics. Do they make one specifically for the 421?
yep! theres a 421 specific model.
Old 6th January 2014
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPower View Post
I've been digging my Beta 181 (s) on toms lately. Really minimal bleed on a floor tom track even with the ride positioned about 3.5 inches above the rim. Very small too, so positioning is a breeze.
I'lll second the 181's on toms! Ive been using them with the hypercardioid caps and love it.
Old 6th January 2014
  #19
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 666666 View Post
Good, workhorse, affordable, durable, small-footprint, supercardioid mics that reject bleed really well, great for toms and snare: Shure Beta56A

These also have a good deal of upper mids which help accentuate drum attack. Great for pop, rock or metal in any case. I use these for my live kit and also sometimes for recording. They're indestructible and very easy to position. They always deliver the goods.

Though more often for recording I use Sennheiser MD421s on toms. These are technically cardioids and thus theoretically have a wider pick-up pattern than a super or hypercardioid, but for whatever reason they seem to reject a lot of bleed anyway. In assorted tests, the 421s seemed to have rejected way more bleed than just about any other cardioid tried and in some cases nearly matched the bleed rejection performance of some super and hypercardioids.

I use the 421s more often for recording because they yield a more natural tom sound overall, very flattering to well-tuned toms. Nice beef and punch. No hype. The Beta56As are a bit heavy in the attack which could be seen as "hype", which always works for pop or metal in any case... and with a bit of eq-ing will work for anything really. The 421s are just a bit more "fine" and "accurate", better for classic rock, jazz, prog, etc.

But the 421s also cost over $200 more each than the 56s, which makes the 56s an incredible value. I think I have like ten or more 56s in the locker, they're just great to have around, true "swiss-army drum mics". For toms and snare they'll work every time, on stage or on tape.

With either the 56s or 421s, in some cases I still need to clean some bleed out of the tom and snare tracks, depends.

Also make sure that your room is treated well because a poorly treated room can GREATLY contribute to drum mic bleed. This is a big deal, don't overlook it. If you have hard surfaces nearby (low ceiling, nearby walls) that are not covered with proper heavy absorption, you'll have a mic bleed-fest no matter what mics you use.




....and this too!

He's recording metal bands....edit the toms!
How the heck is the room sound having a major effects on the Tom mic rear rejection?
Old 6th January 2014
  #20
Gear addict
I edit the tom tracks as well.

Got to say that the Sennheiser laser gate system looks pretty cool.

I am very tempted to give it a go
Old 6th January 2014
  #21
Two things:

- cymbal position
- CAD 179s, and play with the exact polar pattern to dial out the cymbal bleed
Old 6th January 2014
  #22
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666666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blindjoni View Post
He's recording metal bands....edit the toms!
How the heck is the room sound having a major effects on the Tom mic rear rejection?
Editing (chopping out) or automating down the spaces between tom hits is a given, the "spaces" are not a problem.

But often you might have a tom hit that immediately follows a cymbal hit or possibly even tom hits that occur at the same time as cymbal hits. Might seem uncommon but I've experienced this a lot of times. So what happens is that when the tom hit occurs, you suddenly have this tremendous cymbal bleed popping through at the same time and it can create an unacceptable "artifact".

So, again, it's not the spaces between tom hits to be concerned about, it's the actual tom hits... that's where you can get nasty bleed popping through.

Treating the room well can make a very noticeable difference in terms of cutting down on this type of problem, can reduce it by at least 50%. In an untreated room, you have high-frequency cymbal content just bouncing all over the place, the cymbal content has a longer decay, it's coming in at the mic from all sides as it bounces around, etc, etc. If the room has heavy absorption, the cymbal content pretty much just disappears, no close reflections, no extra decay, etc. It can really help, especially in a smaller room with somewhat low ceiling.

Old 6th January 2014
  #23
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Heil PR 28s sound great and have max rejection.
Old 6th January 2014
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred View Post

Are you working on a DAW? Why not just delete between the hits of each drum? I've done that for years and once you bring up the overheads and the mix it sounds very natural.
That.
It'a a bit tedious, but doesn't really take that long. I've been hand cleaning tom tracks for years. Works like a charm. And you don't have to compromise tone for rejection.
Old 6th January 2014
  #25
Gear interested
 

I always use dynamics (on top at least, sometimes an LDC underneath when I have the chance) and while I try and minimise bleed during positioning I'll still aim to put them where they sound good instead of right up on the drum and have ugly sounding close mics. Apart from stripping silence and fading the close mics out quickly before the next crash hit, you'll occasionally have to paste a clean tom hit sample in if there is a large amount of cymbal coming through - china in the floor tom mic is a killer especially. Every pro engineer I talk production with does this too. I always sample a few hard hits of each drum right before tracking each song and leave them at the end of the song session so I can grab them and drop them over nasty sounding hits during pre-mixing if needed.
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