Converter Showdown: Rosetta AD versus MOTU 828 mk1 (clips inside)

simonv · 23rd September 2006, 12:18 AM

Alright,

I just did this little test today.

You tell me: Which track is the Rosetta AD 48k and which one is the MOTU 828 mk1?

How it was done:
I recorded everything with my neumann KM184 through a Portico 5012 preamp. The main out of the Portico went to the Rosetta, and one of its BUS outputs went to the MOTU. The MOTU was clocked internally.

Therefore, the only differences between the 2 clips were the converters. (and the 2 feet cables going from the pre to the converters)

Here are the chains:

Rosetta Track: Guitar/Voice - KM184 - Portico 5012 preamp XLR out- Mogami XLR - Rosetta AD - SPDIF cable - MOTU spdif IN.

MOTU Track: Guitar/Voice - KM184 - Portico 5012 preamp BUS out - 1/4 jack - Motu 828 line input.

The levels were exactly the same in my recording program.
I didn't use any EQ or compressor. Just volumes and panning, which are exactly the same on both tracks. The guitar is a 400$ takamine classical guitar. The room is my cheaply-soundtreated bedroom.

I'll give the results in a couple days,
Simon

PS - sorry for the so so performance, I didn't care so much for that!
PS - these are 320kbs mp3s. I figured that this should be enough.

papercut · 23rd September 2006, 12:51 AM

Hey,

Thanks for doing this.

Here's my guess.

A is the MOTU and B is the Rosetta. A sounds more muffled to me.

Watersound · 23rd September 2006, 12:54 AM

I would venture a guess that A is Motu, B is Rosetta.

JoshRND · 23rd September 2006, 03:29 PM

The Buss and main outputs of the Portico are not identical. The Buss output on the 5012 is not the same as the line output, but is rather a buss level output meant to be routed through other modules and then brought back up to full line level with other RND designs prior to interfacing with the outside world. This is like the internal buss level of a console, and can be used with the 5043 Compressor or some of the other mixing solutions which are coming down the line, but not meant to be used as a 2nd line output or mult without other gear to bring it up to snuff. I would think that even with level match the MOTU would be at a disticnt disadvantage.

Best,

Josh
www.rupertneve.com

Jeff16years · 23rd September 2006, 03:31 PM

nice job!!

i want to know which converter is better the rosetta 800 or the apogee ad-16

sorry i don't mean to hijack

-jeff

simonv · 23rd September 2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshRND

The Buss and main outputs of the Portico are not identical. The Buss output on the 5012 is not the same as the line output, but is rather a buss level output meant to be routed through other modules and then brought back up to full line level with other RND designs prior to interfacing with the outside world. This is like the internal buss level of a console, and can be used with the 5043 Compressor or some of the other mixing solutions which are coming down the line, but not meant to be used as a 2nd line output or mult without other gear to bring it up to snuff. I would think that even with level match the MOTU would be at a disticnt disadvantage.

Best,

Josh
www.rupertneve.com

Hummm.. I see.
What if I used the 2 buss outs on the back? (to both the Motu and Rosetta)
Even if they're not line-level outputs, at least I would get the exact same signal to both converters and we could judge.

By the way.. I'm not an expert on buss/line levels, but all I can say is that I really didnt have to crank the MOTU that much to get a signal, it seemed as loud as any line-level signal to me.

Simon

mixerguy · 23rd September 2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

nice job!!

i want to know which converter is better the rosetta 800 or the apogee ad-16

sorry i don't mean to hijack

-jeff

You just DID try to hijack the thread

fuzzface777 · 23rd September 2006, 06:19 PM

Simon, I was in Montreal a few ago to experience Montreal and I have to that even you rough " Which ones the best " sample song really has that elusive Montreal Jazzy-folk sound to it! I live in Taiwan, and I forgot about the local Monreal music "sound."

Anyway, I guess that B is the Rosetta. A is more dull, and less phychoacoustics.
B has more transients, you hear the string's sound better, better dynamics, better balance and frequency seperation -especially when the singing commences.

my 2 cents made me a rich man

fuzzface777 · 23rd September 2006, 06:22 PM

I forgot to say that I am suprised the converters at a relatively close quality, both affect the sound that much....eventhough it is only about 1-2 % ,but that 1-2% that adds or subtracts the breathy or airy-ness of a recording! I found high cables to have similar comparison among them..... though many accused or put me down to suggest such a thing.... those idiots...

simonv · 24th September 2006, 01:25 PM

Anybody else wanna guess?
I'll give the results tomorrow.

perun · 24th September 2006, 09:56 PM

Differences are not BIG! IMO they're pretty small on my home HiFi setup. But, whichever this is... B sounds little more clear and more transparent to me. But anyway, I don't like the sound on both of units (read CHAINs)...

cerla · 24th September 2006, 10:34 PM

I hear a huge difference, even on my laptop speakers.

"B" is clearly better, so I'd guess it's the Apogee.

ciao

perun · 24th September 2006, 11:20 PM

Sorry, I listened to them again. My TV was turned on, my girl was in the room. Hmmmm. There is a huge difference, you're right!

B definately sounds better. Opened, transparent. A sounds DULL! With "nose" on it!

Ok. Cheers... I'll go to take the EAR WASH!

P.S. But generaly, both tracks suck!

Bump Music · 26th September 2006, 09:51 PM

Results?

simonv · 26th September 2006, 10:39 PM

,
I've been wanting to give the results... But I completely forgot myself which mp3 is which :) I'll have to reload the project and check again

e

im busy until tomorrow so maybe then!

Booda · 26th September 2006, 10:48 PM

B sounds better to me!

max cooper · 26th September 2006, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perun

my girl was in the room

I know what you mean. When my girl's in the room, I can't tell a Lavry from a lava lamp or a MOTU from a motorbike.

Hey, good going on the test. Gotta listen when I get home.

frugalpole · 26th September 2006, 11:23 PM

well it tooke me quite some work to get to my opinion. i PREFER the sound of B. the differences are ever so slight to my (bad? --> maybe) ears.

i tried A/Bing w/ itunes. didn't really do much. i tried A/Bing in quicktime... again didn't really do much. my trouble was, i didn't hear enough of a difference in the way i was A/Bing them...

so finally i loaded the bad boys into ableton live, gave them each there own track, and assigned them to opposites of the crossfader. and then used the crossfader to make quick changes between the two. i really didn't notice a difference when i would go from A --> to B. but when i would go again then from B --> A i would notice the loss of life. a dulling of sorts would occur. the mids felt a bit warmer, and less flattened/muted on B, and the highs had a bit more depth/detail/sparkle.

either way, i am impressed w/ the conversion quality of the motu.

oh yes, my guess, as well is B. assuming apogee's rep is deserved. :)

simonv · 27th September 2006, 02:19 AM

RESULT TIME!!!

Ok guys, sorry for my incompetence! I forgot what A and B stood for

. I decided to re-Render both files. Here they are, with their real names.

I think that B was actually the MOTU, but I wouldn't put money on it.

I hope that this little test clarifies some hype about convertors....
In my opinion, unless you got all the other stuff covered (instruments, room, mics, pres), convertors won't take you "to the next level".

cerla · 27th September 2006, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simonv

In my opinion, unless you got all the other stuff covered (instruments, room, mics, pres), convertors won't take you "to the next level".

There is a clear difference, IMHO.
Second file is much more defined, in the 1st file transients are ok, but sound is grainy.

Multiply this difference x 16 channels, you will have a MUCH WORSE mix with the MOTU.

my (bin 00000010) cents...

Bump Music · 27th September 2006, 03:33 AM

I agree. It's not a matter of that one track... it's the 40 bg vox, 20 drum tracks, 20 guitar tracks etc etc. And THEN the 16 or 24 channels of D/A for mixing. Although I much prefered the Apogee track, this experiment doesn't make me want to run out and get one.

simonv · 27th September 2006, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bump Music

I agree. It's not a matter of that one track... it's the 40 bg vox, 20 drum tracks, 20 guitar tracks etc etc. And THEN the 16 or 24 channels of D/A for mixing. Although I much prefered the Apogee track, this experiment doesn't make me want to run out and get one.

I agree with all of that. I'm more or less being the devil's advocate.

But, many people on Gearslutz are just here to know what's the overall best interface they could get for their home-studio. And after reading opinions left and right, they start to believe that conversion is really the holy grail of all things.

This test was between a MOTU mk1 (officially the worst sound piece of shit you could buy, considereing the better stuff you can buy nowadays), and an Apogee AD (A very well respected piece of gear). The difference was, in my opinion, very small. None of our girlfriends would see the difference on their IPOD even they tried hard.

I just hope that this test will rectify the perceptions of some people about conversion, and about what it means sonically.

Now, I did this test with a Portico 5012 and a Neumann KM184, which are awesome and expensive pieces of gear. To those of you who are just lurking: don't think that by getting a MOTU 828 all your dreams will come true

.

The performance is what really matters.

And mine quite sucked on there! hahaha

alright good night.

6strings · 27th September 2006, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simonv

Ok guys, sorry for my incompetence! I forgot what A and B stood for

. I decided to re-Render both files. Here they are, with their real names.

I think that B was actually the MOTU, but I wouldn't put money on it.

I hope that this little test clarifies some hype about convertors....

simonv · 27th September 2006, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6strings

About this: "I think that B was actually the MOTU, but I wouldn't put money on it."
What I'm saying is that I dont remember if when I rendered the Rosetta, I called it A or B.

I stand by the other lines you quoted, please clarify that

if you feel like it.

jayman · 27th September 2006, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simonv

About this: "I think that B was actually the MOTU, but I wouldn't put money on it."
What I'm saying is that I dont remember if when I rendered the Rosetta, I called it A or B.

I stand by the other lines you quoted, please clarify that

if you feel like it.

I would guess that the face means "what a dadgum waste of time, if you're not 100% sure which was which."

Don't mean to be a jerk, but it really is pointless if you're not absolutely certain.

j

goldphinga · 27th September 2006, 08:08 AM

what a f--k up of a thread!

FULL-DUPLEX · 27th September 2006, 09:09 AM

After listening the tracks here is my result:

A sounds worst (Motu 828 MK1)

B sounds best (Apogee Rosetta)

So which is the best...? The Rosetta is the best... More detail, 3Dnes and other psychoacustic things happen here better.

If you are hearing the first 10 seconds of theses tracks you can here the difference.

Regards,

F.D.

perun · 27th September 2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simonv

I think that B was actually the MOTU, but I wouldn't put money on it.

I hope that this little test clarifies some hype about convertors....

No it doesn't... Both of those tracks sound like shit. The only question is which one stinks "harderrr".

simonv · 27th September 2006, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayman

I would guess that the face means "what a dadgum waste of time, if you're not 100% sure which was which."

Don't mean to be a jerk, but it really is pointless if you're not absolutely certain.

j

Oh, I see, no problem!
I though you were somehow insulting my ears or somethings.

That's why I reuploaded,
Simon

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23rd September 2006, 12:54 AM	#3
Watersound Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Jersey/Nashville, TN Posts: 535	I would venture a guess that A is Motu, B is Rosetta. __________________ JD

23rd September 2006, 03:31 PM	#5
Jeff16years Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Weymouth, MA U.S.A. Posts: 687	nice job!! i want to know which converter is better the rosetta 800 or the apogee ad-16 sorry i don't mean to hijack -jeff __________________ www.sonicdisorder.com

24th September 2006, 09:56 PM	#11
perun Gear addict Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 382	Differences are not BIG! IMO they're pretty small on my home HiFi setup. But, whichever this is... B sounds little more clear and more transparent to me. But anyway, I don't like the sound on both of units (read CHAINs)... __________________ Atelje Trag Group www.ateljetrag.com Emmett Brown Technologies www.emmett-brown.com

24th September 2006, 11:20 PM	#13
perun Gear addict Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 382	Sorry, I listened to them again. My TV was turned on, my girl was in the room. Hmmmm. There is a huge difference, you're right! B definately sounds better. Opened, transparent. A sounds DULL! With "nose" on it! Ok. Cheers... I'll go to take the EAR WASH! P.S. But generaly, both tracks suck! __________________ Atelje Trag Group www.ateljetrag.com Emmett Brown Technologies www.emmett-brown.com

23rd September 2006, 12:51 AM	#2
papercut Gear Head Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 52	Hey, Thanks for doing this. Here's my guess. A is the MOTU and B is the Rosetta. A sounds more muffled to me.

23rd September 2006, 03:29 PM	#4
JoshRND Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 108	The Buss and main outputs of the Portico are not identical. The Buss output on the 5012 is not the same as the line output, but is rather a buss level output meant to be routed through other modules and then brought back up to full line level with other RND designs prior to interfacing with the outside world. This is like the internal buss level of a console, and can be used with the 5043 Compressor or some of the other mixing solutions which are coming down the line, but not meant to be used as a 2nd line output or mult without other gear to bring it up to snuff. I would think that even with level match the MOTU would be at a disticnt disadvantage. Best, Josh www.rupertneve.com

23rd September 2006, 06:19 PM	#8
fuzzface777 Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 888	Simon, I was in Montreal a few ago to experience Montreal and I have to that even you rough " Which ones the best " sample song really has that elusive Montreal Jazzy-folk sound to it! I live in Taiwan, and I forgot about the local Monreal music "sound." Anyway, I guess that B is the Rosetta. A is more dull, and less phychoacoustics. B has more transients, you hear the string's sound better, better dynamics, better balance and frequency seperation -especially when the singing commences. my 2 cents made me a rich man

23rd September 2006, 06:22 PM	#9
fuzzface777 Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 888	I forgot to say that I am suprised the converters at a relatively close quality, both affect the sound that much....eventhough it is only about 1-2 % ,but that 1-2% that adds or subtracts the breathy or airy-ness of a recording! I found high cables to have similar comparison among them..... though many accused or put me down to suggest such a thing.... those idiots...

24th September 2006, 01:25 PM	#10
simonv Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 476	Anybody else wanna guess? I'll give the results tomorrow.

24th September 2006, 10:34 PM	#12
cerla Gear Head Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 51	I hear a huge difference, even on my laptop speakers. "B" is clearly better, so I'd guess it's the Apogee. ciao

26th September 2006, 09:51 PM	#14
Bump Music Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 614	Results?

26th September 2006, 10:39 PM	#15
simonv Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 476	, I've been wanting to give the results... But I completely forgot myself which mp3 is which :) I'll have to reload the project and check again e im busy until tomorrow so maybe then!

26th September 2006, 10:48 PM	#16
Booda Gear Head Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 69	B sounds better to me!

26th September 2006, 11:23 PM	#18
frugalpole Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: minneapolis Posts: 193	well it tooke me quite some work to get to my opinion. i PREFER the sound of B. the differences are ever so slight to my (bad? --> maybe) ears. i tried A/Bing w/ itunes. didn't really do much. i tried A/Bing in quicktime... again didn't really do much. my trouble was, i didn't hear enough of a difference in the way i was A/Bing them... so finally i loaded the bad boys into ableton live, gave them each there own track, and assigned them to opposites of the crossfader. and then used the crossfader to make quick changes between the two. i really didn't notice a difference when i would go from A --> to B. but when i would go again then from B --> A i would notice the loss of life. a dulling of sorts would occur. the mids felt a bit warmer, and less flattened/muted on B, and the highs had a bit more depth/detail/sparkle. either way, i am impressed w/ the conversion quality of the motu. oh yes, my guess, as well is B. assuming apogee's rep is deserved. :) Last edited by frugalpole; 27th September 2006 at 12:17 AM.. Reason: clarification

27th September 2006, 03:33 AM	#21
Bump Music Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 614	I agree. It's not a matter of that one track... it's the 40 bg vox, 20 drum tracks, 20 guitar tracks etc etc. And THEN the 16 or 24 channels of D/A for mixing. Although I much prefered the Apogee track, this experiment doesn't make me want to run out and get one.

27th September 2006, 08:08 AM	#26
goldphinga Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 785	what a f--k up of a thread!

27th September 2006, 09:09 AM	#27
FULL-DUPLEX Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 509	After listening the tracks here is my result: A sounds worst (Motu 828 MK1) B sounds best (Apogee Rosetta) So which is the best...? The Rosetta is the best... More detail, 3Dnes and other psychoacustic things happen here better. If you are hearing the first 10 seconds of theses tracks you can here the difference. Regards, F.D.