Music Theory Question(Intervals)

[LarryClutch]

After looking through the different forums, this one seemed to be the closest match for this question. I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place for this question.

I have decided to finally take the time to learn music theory, and have been moving along nicely until now.

The course I am studying says that Gb to B is a 4th interval(it doesn't state what type of 4th). Since Gb to Bb is a major 3rd then why isn't Gb to B an augmented 3rd? It seems to me that all you are doing is raising a 3rd interval a half step hence augmenting it.

I have read everything I can find online about intervals, but this one still stumps me.

Thanks!

[Mike O]

This should do it: http://www.teoria.com/reference/intervals/06.htm

[henryrobinett]

They would be "enharmonically" the same pitch, but have different names and ultimately have different purposes.

[gabler]

Originally Posted by LarryClutch

After looking through the different forums, this one seemed to be the closest match for this question. I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place for this question.

I have decided to finally take the time to learn music theory, and have been moving along nicely until now.

The course I am studying says that Gb to B is a 4th interval(it doesn't state what type of 4th). Since Gb to Bb is a major 3rd then why isn't Gb to B an augmented 3rd? It seems to me that all you are doing is raising a 3rd interval a half step hence augmenting it.

I have read everything I can find online about intervals, but this one still stumps me.

Thanks!

It should be called a perfect 4th since the Gb is in the B major scale.
The B is in the Gb major scale. Unless I learned something incorrectly.

[henryrobinett]

Actually it should be called Cb instead of "B". In Gb the fourth is C flat, not B.

[BeePee]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

They would be "enharmonically" the same pitch, but have different names and ultimately have different purposes.

In other words Gb and F# are the same pitch.I agree with you it doesn't make sense

When naming intervals one of the parameters is the number of letter names between the notes.Any G to any B should be some kind of 3rd.So you're correct it's an augmented 3rd.

Correctly labeled F#-B is a perfect 4th.

BP

[noiseflaw]

Originally Posted by LarryClutch

After looking through the different forums, this one seemed to be the closest match for this question. I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place for this question.

I have decided to finally take the time to learn music theory, and have been moving along nicely until now.

The course I am studying says that Gb to B is a 4th interval(it doesn't state what type of 4th). Since Gb to Bb is a major 3rd then why isn't Gb to B an augmented 3rd? It seems to me that all you are doing is raising a 3rd interval a half step hence augmenting it.

I have read everything I can find online about intervals, but this one still stumps me.

Thanks!

In the Gmajor scale (Ionion - first mode) the relationship from Gb to B is a perfect 4th.

let us look at the C Major scale and compare


1---2---3--4
C - D - E - F

(Remember the C is the first note of the Major scale and the F is the 4th note of the Major Scale, (therefore C to F = perfect 4th)

Notice the 1/2 Tone step between E and F Tone step from C to D, Tone step from D to E and 1/2 Tone step from E to F.


G Major Scale

1-----2----3----4
Gb - Ab - Bb - B

Again notice the 1/2 tone step between Bb and B.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by BeePee

In other words Gb and F# are the same pitch.I agree with you it doesn't make sense

Oops! I didn't say it didn't make any sense! I think it makes perfect sense.

[Drumsound]

More often one sees the key of F#(not Gb) major and F# to B is a perfect fourth. Its totally semantics though. In theory an augmented third exsists, but not often used in practice.

[tINY]

That's tricky.

In Gb major, a Bb is a 3rd, a B(natural) would be an augmented 3rd, a Cb would be a fourt and a Cbb would be a dimminished 4th.

In Bach's even tempered scale, they all sound the same. But in a Just or Pathygrean tuned organ - they would tecnically sound different (but likely wouldn't all be available).



-tINY

[dcrann11]

In the key of G flat there are 6 flats (beadgc) , C flat is the fourth - you always spell intervals starting with how far apart the letters are including itself - G A B - therefore B natural is a type of third (an augmented 3rd) in Gflat -- to accomodate the key signature , but sounds like a fourth.

[fuzzface777]

I have a different take on it altogether. Gb to B is a 4interval
WHY???? Simply not counting Gb : G A A#B = 4 intervals.
The post of the thread, I believe, mixed up specific/generic/enharmonic intervals because it sounds as if the poster book never mentioned the Key signature at all! Intervals can be confusing, especially huge chords, when interval speed drilling, makes me want to give up! Anyway, standard musical notation is very clear about these distinctions.

Please check out : http://musictheory.net/ -it is free and a nice reference, ear trainers, interval trainers; you can also download a standalone..... make a small donation for Ricci's efforts !

peace

[Ethan Winer]

> Simply not counting Gb : G A A#B = 4 intervals. <

Everyone is correct. It's a floor wax and a desert topping.

I distinguish between a fourth and an augmented third even if they sound the same. The difference is spelling, and it matters for the very same reason spelling is important when writing words. If you say aloud "there" and "their" and "they're" to someone with no context, they can't tell which form you intend. But that doesn't mean all three versions are identical.

My own sticking point with this kind of stuff is what I call a "sharp 4" which has been used in just about every movie score written in the past 20 years. Many people would probably say it's just a flat 5, but that defies its use. Play this scale:

C D E F# G

As a scale, by definition it cannot be spelled like this:

C D E Gb G

Personally, I think a sharp 4 is actually hinting at a Major II chord, but that's another discussion.

--Ethan

[Tone Laborer]

Traditionally sharps are used for C and F, ie C# and F#. And flats for E, A, B, ie Eb,
Ab, Bb. At least that's how I learned it.

[klaukholm]

You are correct in your assumption. B natural to Gb is an augmented third.
This interval is of course enharmonic with a perfect fourth, but the correct label is as you thought.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by Tone Laborer

Traditionally sharps are used for C and F, ie C# and F#. And flats for E, A, B, ie Eb,
Ab, Bb. At least that's how I learned it.

Unfortunately that is incorrect.

[henryrobinett]

There are defintely songs and music written in Gb and Db. I've played a lot of them and written in them too. Sometimes it has to do with nothing more than the confort level some musicians feel reading a bunch of flats to a bunch of sharps. Jazz musicians and sax/trumpet players would rather think Bbm7 long before thinking A#m7. It's just a mental twist that's not welcome.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Wow, I jumped into the fray a little late. It's all been said already.

Yes. Augmented third, technically -- not a fourth. The B is the enharmonic of the Cb.

You could also encounter the B natural in the key of Gb (major, for instance) in the form of a half-step movement in a passing chord. Ethan's right -- it's chord spelling, and it's a bit formal, and yes, enharmonics are the "same notes" in our equal-tempered universe, but the spelling indicates certain things about the note's function in context.

*** I haven't had a music theory course in this decade, so if I'm a little off, feel free to correct me but I believe I'm 100% right here.

[LarryClutch]

Thanks for all of the replies!

The lesson on 7ths is where I ran into this confusion. You can find it in the second paragraph of this page http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/7th-chords.html

I found a list of half-tones that could be used to figure what degree the intervals are. Checking against the chart Gb to B is sure enough a 4th. The problem is that I am of the same understanding as BeePee on the rules for this and I don't understand how to come up with that interval in theory.

Also, thanks for the links. I will check them out.

Boy this theory stuff is a hoot

[dcrann11]

Originally Posted by fuzzface777

I have a different take on it altogether. Gb to B is a 4interval
WHY???? Simply not counting Gb : G A A#B = 4 intervals.
T

the problem with this thinking is that you forgot G#

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by LarryClutch

Thanks for all of the replies!

The lesson on 7ths is where I ran into this confusion. You can find it in the second paragraph of this page http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/7th-chords.html

Other than that (simple mistake? Or purposeful oversimplification?), it's a really cool lesson in 7ths.

Once you do that, do you get a lesson on "color tones?"

Stacking chords is fun stuff. But don't get stuck in stacking 3rds -- open voicings (i.e.: not stacked thirds) are cool on guitar and piano...Inversions, too...

And 1, 3, 7 defines the 7th chord to the listener -- the "5" is implied -- you can take it or leave it. If the bass player's covering the "1," that leaves you with 3, 7, and color tones...yeah, baby! The options are endless!

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

And 1, 3, 7 defines the 7th chord to the listener -- the "5" is implied -- you can take it or leave it. If the bass player's covering the "1," that leaves you with 3, 7, and color tones...yeah, baby! The options are endless!

This means that a tritone defines a dominant 7th -- think E+Bb, for instance -- if the bass is covering C, you've got your C7.

This opens you up to a lot of super-cool ways to do blues chord progressions with tritones. Chromatic passing chord? No problem -- start a fret below and then move into the key (get your bass player to do it with you if you can). And the tritone's symmetrical (as is the full-diminished 7th, which is stacked minor 3rds).

[klaukholm]

this lesson you linked to also calls G# to Bb a second (they don't even specify major or minor second)
Again they misunderstand enharmonicism and labelling. It would be a diminished third which is enharmonic to a major second.

kjetil

[BeePee]

Last week in my Jr College Music Theory 101 class ……we learnded

The interval “number is important for describing the interval function in a chord or scale.
Example:

G-Bb=Minor 3rd Interval
In relationship to a G Minor chord
G= 1
Bb=3rd

G-A#=Augmented 9th (or #9)
In relationship to a G7 #9 chord
G= 1
A#=#9

The intervallic distance between the two notes is their same but the functions in a chord are completely different. Notes are only enharmonic in theory not function…Hence

In the case of a G7#9 …Form follows funktion…booogie down!!

Bee" Grand Master" Pee

[fuzzface777]

dcran11, not really. I forgot to type G# in the line

not counting Gb: G, G#, A, A#, B = equals 5 half steps AND 5 half steps equals a perfect fourth, so of course Gb to B is a P4th. The Key signature isn't given but the key signature is IRREVELANT to understanding insolated intervallic relationships........ sigh

[matt thomas]

Originally Posted by LarryClutch

Thanks for all of the replies!
The problem is that I am of the same understanding as BeePee on the rules for this and I don't understand how to come up with that interval in theory.

Boy this theory stuff is a hoot

Although virtually everyone is right I think they may be missing what larry is misunderstanding. maybe..

if on a piano you start on the black note betwen F and G and play a major scale the fourth note you get to will be a B. Hence they are a fourth apart.

Most of the explanations above are taking into account what key you are in and other points (including the fact that you called it a Gb not an F#), I think that is probably beyond a beginner, although you will understand it in time.

For now: if on a piano you start on the black note betwen F and G and play a major scale, the fourth note will be a B, hence they are a fourth apart.


I like Ethans spelling analogy though!

narco

[alcohol]

The Gb major scale is:

Gb Ab Bb Cb not Gb Ab Bb B

How you call an interval is a matter of spelling and it's spelling is determined by voice leading. You could have a melody line whereby the melody is part of a modulation to the key of C: Gb Ab Bb B C

You wouldn't write the melody Gb Ab Bb Cb C because the note B is a leading tone to C. Cb would not be a leading tone spelling wise.

Gb to B is properly called an Aug 3rd, by spelling

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally Posted by LarryClutch

The course I am studying says that Gb to B is a 4th interval(it doesn't state what type of 4th). Since Gb to Bb is a major 3rd then why isn't Gb to B an augmented 3rd? It seems to me that all you are doing is raising a 3rd interval a half step hence augmenting it.

I have read everything I can find online about intervals, but this one still stumps me.

Thanks!

You have gotten a lot of good answers, and most say pretty much the same thing but in different ways.

Here's my take on it, no different in substance from some of the answers above, just articulated in my own words:

The history of western music can be viewed as the history of intervals (not a great way to view it, but an OK way to view it for the sake of this thread).

Originally, Western music in early church music used only a few and the most consonent of intervals - the unison, the octave, and then the fifth. Then, the fourth was added, not quite as stable as the fifth, but to our ears, at this point in time, every bit as stable. If this was science, these would be elements in their most stable form (some elements are unstable and quickly turn into other things, but these are the most stable).

Thus, perfect fifth, perfect fourth, octaves, and unisons, when they occur, are overwhelmingly stable and powerful creatures. Think of monks chanting in a reverberant church over a thousand years ago - gloria in excelsis deo - and you get the idea.

Over time, other intervals crept in, such as the major third - at one time radical, now the cornerstone of diatonic harmony. Things like sevenths, now absolutely common, were once forbiddon because they were so radically dissonant, but are now an accepted member of the family. Eventually, additional intervals were added until a harmonious collection of them "won" and solidified into the central scale in western music - the diatonic scale.

Other scales / modes also exist, as they always have, and are popular in different musical styles: jazz / rock / etc.

The main thing is this: when you hear the notes you are talking about, whatever you call them Gb to B, F# to B, F# to Cb, E## to A##, etc. etc. etc. you can describe and spell them in all sorts of theoretical ways. But because this is the enharmonic equivalent (i.e. it sounds like) one of the essential, ancient fundamental intervels in western music - the perfect fourth - that is what you hear above all else, and that trumps (in your ear) any other theoretical explanation. It's almost as if some intervals, the fifth, the fourth, the octave, are so basic, that it is like a carnivore eating red meat and having some primitave part of their brain recognize what it is that they are eating and relaxing into mmmmmmmmm meat. When you hear a perfect fourth, no matter how it is spelled, a primative part of your brain recognizes it as a perfect fourth and relaxes into mmmmmmmmmm perfect fourth. Call it what you will, spell it however you like, when your ear hears it, it hears perfect fourth.

So technically, yes, that may be an augmented third under certain enharmonic spellings or using certain modes. But that doesn't matter, because the result sounds like a perfect fourth which is so primal, it all but destroys the notion of augmented third in your ear. Which means that augmented thirds may exist on paper, in theory, as enharmonic spellings, but don't really exist the way other augmented intervals exist because when you augment a third, it turns into a perfect forth. And when you have a perfect forth, its sonority is so powerful, so well-defined in our ears, that all bets are off.

-matt

[alcohol]

Spelling is important to musical context. A perfect fourth and an augmented third might sound the same but how they are used is important to how they are spelled. That distinction is important. English language provides a good analogy. The words 'hear' and 'here' sound the same, but we understand them differently in the their context. The harmonies of Gb, Cb (perfect 4th) resolving to Gb Bb provides a function or voice leading that is very different from a chromatic movement of Gb, B to a C natural. You might read a sentence like "Hear is the rainbow I've been waiting for" and the work "Hear" sounds exactly the same as the word "Here." You understand that though the sound is exactly the same, the meaning or function of the word changes and the spelling of "Hear is the rainbow" is not correct. Enharmonic spelling exist, but the composer or writer of music needs to know the correct spelling of a note for its use within context.

[dcrann11]

Originally Posted by fuzzface777

dcran11, not really. I forgot to type G# in the line

not counting Gb: G, G#, A, A#, B = equals 5 half steps AND 5 half steps equals a perfect fourth, so of course Gb to B is a P4th. The Key signature isn't given but the key signature is IRREVELANT to understanding insolated intervallic relationships........ sigh

I am not sure why you wouldn't count the original tone and create an extra step.

The key signature is absolutley relative to how they function.