Drum Micpre selection-- you decide???

[ron florentine]

I recently sold a bunch of gear only to buy some new Mic Pre's and compressors.Unfortenatly I do not have access to a drum kit to experiment with combinations.I have 2 very imortant session in about 10 days with session guys on the clock for my client....The music is Adult Alternative(al la Tori Amos ,Coldplay)
I generally will mic the Kick,Snare top/bottom.3 toms,hi hat and 2 overheads and one room mic --total 10 mics on kit.I am looking for some opinions on different combinations that would yield the most favorable results.
Mic Pre's are.......Api 3124 (4 mic pre's),Langevin DVC(2 mic pre's +limiter+shelved hi & low EQ),Avalon 737(1 mic pre + comp +EQ) Leftover mic pre's-24 channels of Soundcraft Ghost console Pre's +.....Compressors available Al Smart C2,Avalon 747 (comp + graphic EQ),Joe Meek SC2 all are stereo units.I was considering not using any of the stereo compressor for tracking only mixing.
Since there are so many different possibilities,any suggetions are greatly Appreciated and thanks in advance for your time!
My choices were Kick- Api #1 to Smart C2 (channel 1)
Snare Top-Api#2 to smart C2 (channel #2)
Snare bottom -Avalon 737
Low Tom-Soundcraft ghost
Mid Tom-Api#3
Hi Tom-API #4
Hi Hat-Soundcraft ghost
R& L Overheads-Langevin DVC with EQ & Limiter
Room Mic-Soundcraft Ghost
Dont razz me about using too many mics on a kit I like to have my options open at mixdown.It is also a smaller room 11 x 13 x8 foot ceilings.
Thanks Ron

[Rick Sutton]

Hi Ron, Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. the only thing that I would probably change is to use the board pres on the toms and free up two channels of the API for the overheads. I have an API 3124 also and wish I had a a couple more to completely cover my drums. I use the API on close kick(421) far kick (47fet) snare top (sm57) and the last pre for under snare, when I need it. Toms always go through my board (Otari 54). Just my $.02 Rick

[studjo]

Yeah what Rick said. Free those APIs up for some more important stuff than toms.
Kick-API
Snare top-API
Snare-btm-API
Room-API or Avalon
Toms-Desk
Oh-DVC
Hat-Desk or Avalon

You're quite save with those Pres. Do what your stomach (SP?) would do

Jo

[Jason Poulin]

that's about right Studjo

Your toms should be meaty enough from your OH's especially if you're using the Recorderman setup.

Goodluck

Jason

[ron florentine]

Thanks for the insight so far........Would the Langevin DVC or a couple of the API mic pre's be better for overheads?My feeling on this is since the dvc has an EQ +limter I could adjust the brightness and overall sheen of the overheads.While the API may be a little to beefy and dark for the overheads......am I completly off base here.

Thanks Again Ron

[ron florentine]

I forgot one thing...........Are most people double miking the kick and if yes, where is the close kick in relation to the far kick. I always just put one kick drum mic a few inches right outside the kick drum with (I thought) good results.
Thanks Ron

[NathanEldred]

I'd use the API's on the overheads, they are going to give you more character than the DVC. Listen for clipping on the API's, they can overload easily at times though especially with a hot microphone output. I'd use an inline pad before I used the pad on the preamp itself first if necessary.

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Ron...

API 1 = kik
2 = Snr top
3&4 = O/H

Avalon= Snare shell/ top mic #2... piss off the idea of a bottom mic
DVC = toms

sound craft pres for the rest..

CHECK PHASE!!!!!
Perhaps use the C2 on OH to bring level up a frag and consistency if the drummer isnt that good.. but i doubt you will have that problem if he's a session cat. I was gona sugges the avalon but it depends on the song, cos the attack/release on them is pretty useless if its a fastish song or one with dynamics and mass tempo changes

Joe meek on the room

Let us know how it goes
Wiggy

PS... nathan was spot on about the API's they have WAY too much gain and need padding badly on drums.. i pad the outputs cos they sound better than padding the input before the mic transformer.... they like to get lotsa level ino the transformer to make API's sing like a mofo.

[ron florentine]

Wiggy......Pardon my ignorance but how do i go about padding the outputs of the API 3124.........and when I pad my outputs ,wont my led's on the input of the 3124 be in the red and breaking up at the mic pre input......wont I be getting distortion at my input stage if I just pad the outputs?????
Is there much of a sonic character loss just using the 20 db pad button on the micpre itself?

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Ron..

as cool as the 3124 is and dont get me wrong i loved mine to bits... it has WAY too much gain when the preamp control pot is at 0. If the source is causing it to peak and clip the front end most people woudl choose to engage the pad on the unit which pads the input going into the mic pre and the transformer. IMHO this changes the tone significantly compared to using a pad source on the output. This can be either an inline pad of 20-40dB which is what i have used successfully, or another arrangement with a passive pot like the A-designs ATTY... which would work VERY well and will help control the out put level.

The reason i ran my 3124 like this is, as i loved it on kik and snare, both of which have lots of dynamics and low energy which is where teh API excells IMHO.. To pad the input of the mic pre means that these frequencies are also being attenuated allong with the level that is going into the preamp. So if the output is attenuated severly i can crank the input gain much harder and get the bottom end pumping and glowing once it has gone through the transformer at a much higger gain... this is amplifiying the signal and the tone... so the bottom end is getting FATTER as opposed to attenuating it , as a pad would do on the input. The transformers really need to be gassed with gain to get allt he phatness and harmonics out of the circuit. the out put pad and pot will then control the level that is going to the recording medium. OH.... and dont worry about preamp distortion int he API cos its freakin nigh on impossible to get the pre to distort cos of the stupid gobs of gain and headroom that they have.. however tehy will fry a lot of input on digital interface cos of the gain an dheadroom and is yet anothe reason to get an attenuating device like an ATTY or a line input/insert of a good analgoue console that can cop that sort of level..

make them drums go boom!

Cheers
Wiggy

[Beech]

So you say pad the mic Wiggy. I've recorded my last two drum sessions using the Glyn Johns four mic technique and also put up a Soundfield for a more 'hifi' sound if needed.
I used the API for the kit left and right mics which were U87s. It worked very well except for the fact that I had to pad one of the mics pres. After the session when I investigated why there was such a difference in level, it became clear that my U87s were TOTally different! The newer (dark color) one has much more gain and indeed top and bottom. The older (silver) one which takes a battery is weak in comparison. The old has been back to Sennheiser recently so I have to guess that it's probably as good as it's going to get.

So, pad the mic and not the pre seems to be the moral of the story.
Does anyone have any opinions on the U87 issue? I really need to have a matched pair in this kind of stereo drum setup, so I guess I'm going to have to dig deep and get another of the newer U87s

Sorry for drifting off topic.

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Beech....

The pad or passive pot/controller is placed on the API's XLR outputs not on the mic.. as padding the mic is the same as padding the mic input IMHO and not good..

As for the u87 level thingy.. yes they all end up being different like U47's, the old purple badges sound better than the newer AI's IMHO but the AI's are more consistent across the range and have that extra gain.. which really isnt needed these days in the realm of most decent pre's being able to squeeze 60dB of gain at most if not more... also things should need to be that cranked in most applciations.

Cheers
Wiggy