clocking issues (help please)

[StaticStudios]

argg....

Ive got a motu 828mkII an Focusrite OCtopre w/Digital card, and now an API A2D.

Ive always had trouble clocking the octopre via the internal clock in the Motu.. (would get clicks or pops) so the fix was to have the octopre be the master clock.
All done via ADAT light pipe octopre -> Motu828.

Now ive got the API connected to the spidif ins on the 828. AND EVERYONE wants to be the master clock!
When the motu is the master both motu and API click.
When the API is master the octopre clicks.
When the octpre is master the API clicks.

The whole point of the A2D was to use the spidifs ( this is my only inputs left.)

How can I get this to work.

Im guessing Word clock connections??

The motu had Word Clock IN / Out

The Octopre ONLY had Word Clock IN

The API only had SUPER Word Clock IN

Will having the clock come via spidif from the API and then with a BNC word Clock connection, connect the 828 to the focusrite work.

Will that correct clocking pass thru the 828 from the spdif outs from the API... into the octopre work/fix this issue.. or im I completely confused.

I think Im confused, myself...

Any help would be appreciated.

[max cooper]

What's your DAW?

Did you set the clocking source in your DAW?

That would pretty much fix it if you didn't.

[StaticStudios]

no, thats not it. its a hardware thing...
This all happens before any daw is involved. thanks though....

anyone with experience with using word clock?

wicked stressed out.....

[Roland]

Conventional wisdom says that ideally your first device should be your master, ie, in the original scenario the Octopre should be master and the Motu slaved to it. It is possible that by using your API as master, syncing your Motu to it and then slaving your Octopre to the motu it will work, try it. In this case think of it as a midi signal. However it is fairly common when there are multiple devices involved to move to a central clock systems such as Big Ben, Roesendhal etc come into their own. In your case, before you go out spending money on a dedicated clock system I would experiment. Have you tried feeding the Octopree or the API's analogue signal into the Motu, how does that sound? The truth is that wordclock isn't the best thing for clocking, it's a complicated, somewhat involved issue, for more explaination on it, have a look at the articles on the RME website.

Regards


Roland

[max cooper]

Yes, some, but not with that particular combo of devices. I know the API has W/C in, and AES and SPDIF out.

Have you tried setting up the API spdif to 828 only? And it clicks? Where do you set the 828 clock source? On the device or in the computer?

Who did you get the API from? Because I'd be on the phone with them.

[StaticStudios]

API as master into the just the motu828, things are fine.

Just as Octopre as master into just the 828, things are fine.

The whole point of this is to use the 8 ANALOG inputs of the 828 (2xSytekpres)
then 8ch of octopre into the ADAT on the motu for 8more (yes the Octopre sucks, but I need those few extra channels. Usually running toms thru it.)
AHHH now ive got my API, 2ch but ID like to use them when tracking. (overheads or kick or snare)
So yes Ideally id like to get all this running together.

The plan was to get the Apogee AD16x and run 16ch of my pres into it. Perfect. Money is the issue there.
So for now I picked up the API to just give that little extra edge.
anyway... blabla bla....

So buying an external clocking system would suck! and defete the reason for my API purchase.

Originally Posted by roland

It is possible that by using your API as master, syncing your Motu to it and then slaving your Octopre to the motu it will work, try it.

Thats what I first tried. That makes the octopre click.
If you're rerefuring to the addition of the BNC connection of the Motu and the OCtopre, will that work you think? yes ,no ?

....

Originally Posted by max cooper

Who did you get the API from? Because I'd be on the phone with them.

vintageking
yes its late now and friday at that.. so I though that the massive knowledge here would help.

Motu support was really no help at all..... waste of the afternoon, just like I thought it would be.

[max cooper]

Things usually like to clock in order of appearance in the signal chain, or at least that's been my experience.

That's why the API to the 828 works and the Octopre to the 828 works.

like so:

Originally Posted by StaticStudios

When the API is master the octopre clicks.
When the octpre is master the API clicks.

You could have ten inputs clocked to the API if you used the analog outs from the Octopre into the analog ins on the 828 and then run the API spdif to the 828. I'm sure you know that, but just in case. I'll bet the 828 converters are OK clocked off the API, and I'll bet they're better than the converters in the Octo, so you're probably better by a notch.

Actually, I think the 828 may have two mic pres in addition to eight analog ins, right? So that would gross you twelve. That'd be a pretty good solution.

[Jules]

I have written this before - it may be of NO USE whatsoever, or it might.

In my experience digital devices that are plugged in and APPEAR to have all the correct settings / configurations / boxes checked in software etc SOMETIMES DON'T WORK.

What can 'wake up' the devices - is to toggle away from and then back to, the correct settings..

Ie if the DAW is MEANT to be set to INTERNAL sync - with the gear all plugged in and switched on (monitors down of course) toggle it AWAY from that setting to EXTERNAL sync - THEN BACK TO INTERNAL!!!!

Same goes for any switches that have to do with word clock - don't just settle for them sitting there - toggle them back and forth a little.

This sort of digital witchdoctor stuff can save the day sometimes..

Just because all the settings all LOOK 'correct', they STILL may not work... Screw around with everything - it might 'wake the beast'

Good luck.

[StaticStudios]

just go over the ch setups here:
________________

2 4ch sytek pres (8ch) are going into the ANALOG ins on the Motu

8 ch of octopre into adat light pipe of the motu. (only one or two of which in need or use)

API into the spidif ins on the 828

The pres on the front of the motu are CRAP! and never use them. its bad enough that I use the A?D converters, blah...

I monitor via spidif outs to a Apogee mini DAC
_________________

Ya the analog ins and the API spidif that all works great!
when you through in the octopre it all goes to hell. or vis versa.

im looking for possible ways to correct this, too get them all working peacefully

Thanks Jules Ill give the toggleing a shot

fix me damit

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by StaticStudios

2 4ch sytek pres (8ch) are going into the ANALOG ins on the Motu

OK. I missed this.

[StaticStudios]

the funny things is, I could maybe get away with the octpre clicking.
If im just using it for toms.

the little pop/click that happens, happens ever few seconds to 5 secs randomly. whats the chance that happens during a tom hit? ya I guess thats not a good idea, it probably would catch a few toms here and there. long tom riffs and rolls

oh it still sucks...

[Dave Peck]

Originally Posted by StaticStudios

the funny things is, I could maybe get away with the octpre clicking.
If im just using it for toms.

the little pop/click that happens, happens ever few seconds to 5 secs randomly. whats the chance that happens during a tom hit? ya I guess thats not a good idea, it probably would catch a few toms here and there. long tom riffs and rolls

oh it still sucks...

The clicking could be a few things, but it is often happening because the receiving device is not actually running from the sending/master clock - it is still actually running off it's own internal clock, and the clicking is a result of the incoming signal not being perfectly sync'ed with the clock of the second device. Verify that all devices you are trying to sync from an incoming clock are really set to run off an external clock, not their own internal clock.

DP

[StaticStudios]

Originally Posted by Dave Peck

The clicking could be a few things, but it is often happening because the receiving device is not actually running from the sending/master clock - it is still actually running off it's own internal clock, and the clicking is a result of the incoming signal not being perfectly sync'ed with the clock of the second device. Verify that all devices you are trying to sync from an incoming clock are really set to run off an external clock, not their own internal clock.

DP

Yes... AS far as I know there is now setting on the octopre to set this for ADAT connections.
EXCEPT when using the word clock connection. there is a push button EXT SYNC.
Pretty sure it has to do with the word clock anyway.
Gonna check further into this.

thank you


It may be the only way that the octpre can be drivin by an external clock, period.

that would explain why the octopre always had to be master. It would never work with it as slave (connected via adat)

[Roland]

Hi Static,

With your set up, and without going to the expense of an external clock your only possible solution is to connect a BNC from the word out of the Motu to the word in of the Octo-pre and press the ext sync button. If this doesn't work external clocking is the only other way. It is for sure, that the clicking you are hearing is caused by lack of sync clock, I have to say it really suprises me that niether he API or the Focusrite has a clock out (apart from the audio stream).

Regards


Roland

[Snatchman]

What about one of those "Adat Extenders" from Hear Technology.? These things " split" the lightpipe signals which you could use your Motu and Focusrite via lightpipe. They sale for about $59/60 dollars ea. You need an In and Out. The "In" has one parallel lightpipe out, the" Out" has two lightpipe out. So..a total of three lightpipe signals going out from one Master out..!

[jhg]

8 ch of octopre into adat light pipe of the motu. (only one or two of which in need or use)

API into the spidif ins on the 828

I monitor via spidif outs to a Apogee mini DAC

With all these crystals a buzzing a master clock source, or a wordclock DA could tighten everything up.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by jhg

With all these crystals a buzzing a master clock source, or a wordclock DA could tighten everything up.

A master clock could (unless there are other things wrong) only improve one thing and that would be the input device that he plans to clock through the daisy chain effect. There was a lot of stuff being attributed to the benefits of external clocks in the industry until Bob Katz and a few others pointed out that in almost all instances they must be worse than either clocking from the original signal or that "source" devices clock. A similar thing has happened recently over the summing box issue. Subsequent to a few people posting some real life comparisons between ITB and summed stems the interest in these boxes has wained.

regards


Roland

[StaticStudios]

IT WORKED! IT WORKED

The BNC word clock from the 828 to the octopre w/ the sync switch engaged.

So its all clocked by the API A2D Digital spidif output into the 828 spidif input. That clock passes thru the 828 to the octopre via the BNC word clock. The LOCK light is lit on the OCtopre to show its synced.
NO CLICKS, NO CLICKS


thanks everyone for the tips and igniteing thoughts in my head

I could'nt be anymore thrilled!

[StaticStudios]

oh, by the way...

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by StaticStudios

oh, by the way...

cool!