Mixing costs

[kats]

Hey simonv. I think your getting bent out of shape over nothing, and your attitude (although probably justifed) will bite you in the ass.

The way I see it is that a $1500 budget is not a serious committment to begin with and your fighting over nothing. You said it, it's her project. Give your advice and then let it go.

The main thing for you is that you enjoy her music and that your a positive influence in the enviroment. Try to get the most out of it for yourself and make sure you don't lose any friends over this. And make sure you don't do the "I told you so" thing at the end.

[andymixer]

You get what you pay for. Time costs money, tools cost money, as does talent. If you want a great mix you've got to pay for all of them. If you leave any single one out, your mix will suck. Do the math.

[quincyg]

seems like the bottom line is that her bottom line is too low to do a really pro project...but it sounds like you want to take a crack at it for $1500. i think this could be good for both of you. on the other hand for $1500 i'm not sure how much time and effort you would want to put in.

the best advice i can give is not to worry too much about it. let her do her project how she wants and don't get overly involved. ultimately if the songs and playing are great then a mediocre recording will still convey the message.

also i think that budget would really only cover mastering. even with a pretty small time guy. i think the guy i use charges $125/hr and works out of a bedroom. took 6 or 7 hrs to do a quickie on our last album.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by redddog

Singer and producer are idiots. Cut and run.

I agree 1000%!!! $1500 will only get you one day in a decent SSL room. You'll never get the stuff mixed, it will sound like crap, and everyone will be pissed. People like your singer and producer will either trust and listen to you or want to do it their way. We all know their way is a disaster waiting to happen, so cut your losses unless they somehow get an epiphany and start trusting you.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Offer $1500 plus back end and a production split. If no mixers take you up on it, maybe you really SHOULD let the project run its course without completely investing yourself in it.

If a mixer believes that you can sell even 500 or 1000 copies hand-to-hand, at shows, or over the internet, tell him/her that you'll pay out installments -- every 100 copies you sell, he/she should get a $500 check until the balance of the bill is paid. I mean, a $3000 mix and $1000 master is reasonable, probably, so you're talking about selling 25 CD's a week for seven months -- and if it's a $10 CD, it's only half the money.

Or guarantee a $500 check once a month and make it the band's goal to earn that money through CD sales. If it's a mixer you trust, maybe leave a guitar or mic or something at his/her studio until the bill is paid.

If you pull this off once and get known as a stand-up, trustworthy guy who'll keep those $500 checks coming, then you'll be able to use this leverage for the NEXT project.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by quincyg

hey ubik,
you have a website i can check out or some of your mix work i can check. i am looking for a mixer coming up. for a hip hop project.

pm sent.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[simonv]

Originally Posted by kats

Hey simonv. I think your getting bent out of shape over nothing, and your attitude (although probably justifed) will bite you in the ass.

The way I see it is that a $1500 budget is not a serious committment to begin with and your fighting over nothing. You said it, it's her project. Give your advice and then let it go.

The main thing for you is that you enjoy her music and that your a positive influence in the enviroment. Try to get the most out of it for yourself and make sure you don't lose any friends over this. And make sure you don't do the "I told you so" thing at the end.

Yep, you're totally right.

I had the wrong attitude about the whole thing. I spent all afternoon and all evening talking with the singer, and we clarified a couple things..

I convinced her that we should practice a lot more a get a whole lot more musician magic in this project instead of once a week like we do right now.
She explained to me that she doesn't have enough experience to "know" when things are right and things are wrong, and that's why she hired a producer for the album.

But after a lot of discussion, I convinced her that a LOT more practice and much less talk would get us where we both want to be in this project.

Bottom line is that we'll start practicing a lot more from now on, and that when we start recording, both her worries and mine will probably be solved.

When the music is right, nothing else can really go wrong.


I understood that my fears were really about the fear of creating a bad album! The root of all that is: bad playing! not bad studio gear.... Now that we'll start practicing, I'll regain all that lost momentum and I'll be so happy just playing my damn guitar that no piece of gear will change my mindset for a second.

thread close

[Jim Williams]

Don't go into debt on a project.

First, do you have a record deal?, distribution? pending sales?

No? What are you doing this for? Why spend $1500 on something you just may end up giving away?

Without a plan and direction, you might as well do it at home and save the money. $1500 isn't going to do it any commercial way, you will find out quickly that time flies when you are spending money. Or, money flies when you are spending time...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[simonv]

nah, actually it's governement money, so either we spend it on the album, either we don't have it at all :)

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by simonv

nah, actually it's governement money, so either we spend it on the album, either we don't have it at all :)

Correction: It's not the governments money, it's the taxpayers money, mine included.

Can't you take that check to Vegas? You may find a better return on it there....

How do I get one of those $1500 spend it on a studio or it's gone checks from the government?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[seaneldon]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

How do I get one of those $1500 spend it on a studio or it's gone checks from the government?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

how? easy. mix this dude's record for $1500. he'll hand the check right over to you if you want.

[kats]

How do I get one of those $1500 spend it on a studio or it's gone checks from the government?

Move to Canada, that's how you do it

But when yous see your tax bill in the end, you might feel like staying in the USA and just paying for your studio time....might be cheaper that way

[thenoiseflower]

Dude, jim, hes canadian, they get money to produce art, Id like my taxpaying dollars going to that,

[simonv]

The cash we have comes from a program that is meant to "encourage the creation of new businesses"... It's a very flexible program (although still hard to get into), but they will accept all types of projects if you're really well structured and know where you're going.

The cash comes from the unemployment funds or wellfare funds that we pay.

So Jim, unless you pay taxes to the province of Quebec I don't think you're giving me anything :)

[kats]

they get money to produce art, Id like my taxpaying dollars going to that

If you saw what % of that money was going to major established artists compared to young new talent, you'd be shocked

[Gregg Sartiano]

I wonder if the SBA in the U.S. does similar kinds of things?

[thejook]

Originally Posted by tgrokz

this would be true if anything he said was in any way constructive and wasn't in an asshole tone

but enough about that. back to mixing costs

Tgrokz: meet Fletcher.

He's probably one of the most insightful people here, and knows more than most of us will ever know about recording (along with a handful of others here that I apologize for not listing). He's *lived* the industry you're getting into, and if his advice sounds harsh, well, wait.

He writes what he writes because (and correct me if I'm wrong, Fletcher), it *bothers* him that schools like this do not do much to equip a person for a career in engineering (as they claim) the way say, a degree in electrical engineering might equip one to be an...electrical engineer.

Thruth is, anyone here would learn more in an internship at Mercenary than an 'engineering school,' and it'd be free. You might get yelled at, but consider it boot camp. When you get out into the real war, you'll be happy you had Sgt. Fletcher for basic.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by thejook

He writes what he writes because (and correct me if I'm wrong, Fletcher), it *bothers* him that schools like this do not do much to equip a person for a career in engineering (as they claim) the way say, a degree in electrical engineering might equip one to be an...electrical engineer.

Why don't film schools spend half the year teaching kids how to make films/understand film theory and the other half of the year teaching them how to sell them? Frankly, the budget isn't the most important thing, it's the ONLY thing. "Give me the pictures...I'll make the war." Non-L.A. types may not get this, but if you've ever heard a kid ask, "I just wanna know how it works in the innnnndustry...?" as if the industry is some monolithic collective and not the dark, chaotic money trench a la Hunter S. Thompson -- you know what I'm talking about.

Don't get me started on music schools...they're not stuck in the LAST century; they're stuck in the century BEFORE (I love Chopin as much as the next guy, but anyway...).

[picksail]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

I wonder if the SBA in the U.S. does similar kinds of things?

This actually veers closer to one of the programs offered by the National Endowment For The Arts.

Read the application sometime.

One is more likely to be struck by lightening than qualify for their program.

[andymixer]

I just wanted to bring up the fact that people who save their budget for mastering over mixing are clueless, I know I'm not the only person out here who has been paid to mix a record they spent a couple weeks on only to find out that the project paid 4 times as much to have it mastered, which takes about half a day. I don't care who it is or what kind of gear they have, the mastering process is useless without a good mix, especially if someone values the music. I guess my point is people's priorities are totally wack these days, always getting sucked into some false magical perception of what can make their record better. In the end all that makes great records is great everything from start to finish. And skimping on cash 99.9 percent of the time will not make great records.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by andymixer

I just wanted to bring up the fact that people who save their budget for mastering over mixing are clueless, I know I'm not the only person out here who has been paid to mix a record they spent a couple weeks on only to find out that the project paid 4 times as much to have it mastered, which takes about half a day.

Been there, done that, got the $3 T-shirt. I had one of >THE< mastering guys moan and groan to me about his lifestyle and how maybe he'd rather be doing recording and production...and I'm staring at his TEN-million sales plaques knowing his rate and knowing he's been overbooked for...umm...TWENTY years (!) and thinking...if you wanna produce so badly, f'n take a couple of weeks off and do a record! Or buy a studio and quit mastering, dammit!

Why do they get so much, anyway? A typical mastering rate is AT LEAST 4 times a typical studio + engineer rate. I'm not saying 'everybody can do it,' but, dammit, not everybody can mix, either, and mixing involves a seemingly endless chain of creative decisions, whereas mastering is (comparably) a largely technical discipline.

I think a lot of people who blow $$$ on "name" mastering would just as soon get the "name" mixer, but can't find his/her number, let alone afford it. There are entire topics on GS along the lines of "how do I get a [name] mixer to work on my record?" Even A-list mastering is accessible to people who would never be able to even dream about getting A-list mixing.

And, Andy, you know I feel your pain when it comes to rates. Tell me: How does it feel to have a platinum artist grind you on pricing while asking for 100% priority on scheduling?

[picksail]

I'm glad we're all on the same page!!!

I think it's safe to say that the logistics of this industry have been misconstrued as much as the Bible and all it implies. (please, don't flame me over the seeming sacrilegious metaphor)

So much misinformation floating about.

I think Andy, Brian and myself have this conversation on a daily basis.

[thejook]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Been there, done that, got the $3 T-shirt. I had one of >THE< mastering guys moan and groan to me about his lifestyle and how maybe he'd rather be doing recording and production...and I'm staring at his TEN-million sales plaques knowing his rate and knowing he's been overbooked for...umm...TWENTY years (!) and thinking...if you wanna produce so badly, f'n take a couple of weeks off and do a record! Or buy a studio and quit mastering, dammit!

Why do they get so much, anyway? A typical mastering rate is AT LEAST 4 times a typical studio + engineer rate. I'm not saying 'everybody can do it,' but, dammit, not everybody can mix, either, and mixing involves a seemingly endless chain of creative decisions, whereas mastering is (comparably) a largely technical discipline.

I think a lot of people who blow $$$ on "name" mastering would just as soon get the "name" mixer, but can't find his/her number, let alone afford it. There are entire topics on GS along the lines of "how do I get a [name] mixer to work on my record?" Even A-list mastering is accessible to people who would never be able to even dream about getting A-list mixing.

And, Andy, you know I feel your pain when it comes to rates. Tell me: How does it feel to have a platinum artist grind you on pricing while asking for 100% priority on scheduling?

I dunno...a great mastering engineer can save your a$$ on a dodgy mix.

[picksail]

Originally Posted by thejook

I dunno...a great mastering engineer can save your a$$ on a dodgy mix.

But why?

From my perspective, what Gregg is saying, in a nutshell, is that if the mix requires significant work at mastering then it's not mixed.

I agree 100%

The mastering engineer's job is not to repair a sh*tty mix, but to enhance it, make it compatible on all sound reproduction systems and compete within a commercial market. ( Yes, of course you all do more than just that, but I was generalizing.)

It's no different than a mix engineer having to 'produce' a record. If the record was truly produced then the mixer wouldn't be the guy who is expected to salvage it. So much of this exists in the editing process anyway. Specifically within a contemporary rock/hip-hop/R&B context, where AutoTune/Melodyne, Vocalign, soundreplacement etc. are considered major components of these productions. When I'm hired to mix, editing isn't included unless discussed prior to the agreement. And I can assure that my contracts leave no room for discrepancies.

I refuse to buy into this fiction.

[andymixer]

Ahmmmm, what mastering engineer has ever saved a mix? Show me, I have yet to see it. My girlfriend can pump or cut the bass in her car so something sounds better in that environment and still that doesn't change the mix. MAstering can make something sound more or less pro, but it can't remotely save what can only be called shit, which is what you get if you don't get something mixed well. Just like a mixer can't save a shitty song. etc. They can make things better, but not save it if it was messed up to begin with.


P.S. and half the time, mastering make things worse. People are paying for something they were falsely led to believe from the start: that a million dollar mastering engineer will give me a pro sounding record.

[Ernest Buckley]

Originally Posted by simonv

Hi all..

How much does it cost (more or less) to get an album mixed on an SSL with great outboard gear and good monitoring?

I've never had an album mixed out the box before.

The band leader of one of my bands wants to cut costs on tracking and invest more in mixing, but I've been telling her that it's not a good idea..

Our budget for mixing is around 1500$.. For that kind of money, for a 10 song album, do you think we can get anything exept a dude in a crappy room with cracked plugins?


Any insights appreciated,
Simon

Hi Simon,
SoundEQ gives some great advice. I would emphasize once again as someone else did that "The BIG 3" being songs, arrangement & performance should be your first priority and those are all FREE! Obviously you`ll have to work.

I would also say that once you have those "Big 3" Tracking is where you should spend the money to get The BIG 3 down onto tape.

Great mixes do not necessarily make great songs but great songs are very forgiving of lousy mixes. So spend the money tracking drums in a great room with the band playing along. You can always overdub somewhere else like home with some decent gear. Again, if the tunes are good, the less than steller sound will not hinder your efforts all that much.

When it comes to mixing, find someone who likes your music, be honest with them about your goals and your budget and see what they can do for you.

$1500 is not a lot of money but if you have it, I firmly believe you need to spend in tracking, not mixing.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by picksail

But why?

From my perspective, what Gregg is saying, in a nutshell, is that if the mix requires significant work at mastering then it's not mixed.

I agree 100%

The mastering engineer's job is not to repair a sh*tty mix, but to enhance it, make it compatible on all sound reproduction systems and compete within a commercial market. ( Yes, of course you all do more than just that, but I was generalizing.)

It's no different than a mix engineer having to 'produce' a record. If the record was truly produced then the mixer wouldn't be the guy who is expected to salvage it. So much of this exists in the editing process anyway. Specifically within a contemporary rock/hip-hop/R&B context, where AutoTune/Melodyne, Vocalign, soundreplacement etc. are considered major components of these productions. When I'm hired to mix, editing isn't included unless discussed prior to the agreement. And I can assure that my contracts leave no room for discrepancies.

I refuse to buy into this fiction.