Apogee/Ensemble - answers please

[goldphinga]

Ive got my ensemble, havent used it yet as im still finishing projects on my old system.

Thing is im reading reports of this audio offset business and its not good. If this is true then it makes the box useless for me, and ill be asking for a full refund.

I know we are on beta drivers but this is a problem with the apple driver in general it seems?? So who is gonna take responsibilty and sort it out?????Its taking too long especially if you like to get work done. I want to get mine up and running soon.

Correct me if im wrong please.

I want to know why apogee and apple are being so quiet on this. as a fully paid up and registered customer, myself and others deserve better than this.

A- when will the full driver come out?
B- when will random offset and other problems be fixed ?

Answers pronto please.

[Sizzleboy]

Have you contacted Apogee? They really do have fantastic customer support.

[goldphinga]

No i havent contacted them as they used to have a regular presence on this site. There doesnt seem to be an ensemble users forum on the apogee site so this is why most users post on here.

the ensemble has been out for a while now and id like to know whats going on with the driver development.

The serious issues should have been solved by now but from what i know they havent.

I know the ensemble sounds great but they need to get the beta driver binned and bring out the proper one.

Max?

[markchatwin]

Goldphinga - I'm in the same boat. I have mine brand new in the box and have not opened it. I can still return it hassle free until I open it. Firstly I know that Apogee will be very good with support. They always pick up the phone and a gentlemen there, Leon, has assured me they will do everything possible to help should things not run smoothly for me.

The grey area for me is this. My retailer laid it out quite well. If I open the box and it has bugs and glitches I can return it within 30 days. If the product is defective then full refund. If it is buggy and glitchy for me but the Ensemble works for their Tech Dept on their computer then I face a 20% restocking fee. With imperfect drivers the situation is dicey. My experience with the computer-based recording game is that when multiple pieces of hardware talk to each other funky stuff can happen. The same funky stuff may not happen to someone else's rig. So therefore the soundness of the driver is extremely important.

For example I have a Firewire harddrive in my G5 FW800 port. The driver does not support that. However Leon said that even though they state that in the limitations they have not seen a problem with something else in the FW port. And he actually encouraged me to try it out and keep close contact with him.

The hardest part is that the Ensemble fits my workstream the best out of any converter/pre. I like the integration and "all in oneness" and I don't need more than this. But I work in the studio alot these days and don't have time to deal with a potential "buggy" device.

My jump in the computer-based recording world was last March with a G5 2.7 along with Motu Midi interface, Logic Pro, Mackie Control Universal, ESI Juli@ PCI card. The first month and a half was riddled with bugs, endless time on the phone with Apple Care, and a huge learning curve. I'm over it, it works great but now the limitations of the ESI card are affecting my studio's quality. I need the Ensemble or something like it up and running but I'm afraid to open the box.

Your posed questions cannot be answered right now. Leon could give me no answer as to when Apple will deliver the final appropriate driver. Random offset he could not comment on except to say he has not experienced it. He did promise he and the company would be there for us until we're happy with the Ensemble.

The answer seems simple - I don't have time for hassles now, Ensemble is brand new with a Beta driver, why would I open this box? Cause I waited a long time for this piece of gear that will suit me perfectly

[markchatwin]

Also Goldphinga - How do you know the Ensemble sounds great? Did you listen to one? I'm trying to get that question answered myself. One guy on this Forum said it sucks and is selling it or something. If I could find some folks somewhere who are using it and liking it that might sway me.

[GCL]

I sold my Rosetta 200 and have been using 2 Ensembles (on different Macs) for over a month. Sounds great, no problems, got plenty of work done so far, no discernable sound quality differences between the Ensemble and Rosetta 200 for me.

[Jonsey]

Originally Posted by GCL

I sold my Rosetta 200 and have been using 2 Ensembles (on different Macs) for over a month. Sounds great, no problems, got plenty of work done so far, no discernable sound quality differences between the Ensemble and Rosetta 200 for me.

Well, I actually sent my ensemble back, not because there was anything wrong with it as I think it’s a great sounding all rounder. I sent it back because I borrowed a Rosetta 200 and was using it for many months until the Ensemble turned up. IMO the Rosetta wins on sound quality, however, the ensemble offers a great deal for the money and it does sound good for its price point. I have since opted for the Rosetta 200 & a DA16x, which I’m more than happy with.

[Sizzleboy]

Originally Posted by Jonsey

I have since opted for the Rosetta 200 & a DA16x, which I’m more than happy with.

Hey Jonsey,

That's a strange setup. 2 inputs and 18 outputs. Are you using other converters for tracking?

[Jonsey]

Originally Posted by Sizzleboy

Hey Jonsey,

That's a strange setup. 2 inputs and 18 outputs. Are you using other converters for tracking?

I make house music, only ever use two inputs for guitar, vocals or bass, I have only one synth and the rest are plugs (2 outs on the Rosetta are redundant). My DA16x is plumbed into a NEVE 8816 summing mixer. It may sound strange but actually it sounds lovely!

[s o l v e n t]

Originally Posted by goldphinga

Ive got my ensemble, havent used it yet as im still finishing projects on my old system.

Thing is im reading reports of this audio offset business and its not good. If this is true then it makes the box useless for me, and ill be asking for a full refund.

I know we are on beta drivers but this is a problem with the apple driver in general it seems?? So who is gonna take responsibilty and sort it out?????Its taking too long especially if you like to get work done. I want to get mine up and running soon.

Correct me if im wrong please.

I want to know why apogee and apple are being so quiet on this. as a fully paid up and registered customer, myself and others deserve better than this.

A- when will the full driver come out?
B- when will random offset and other problems be fixed ?

Answers pronto please.

hi...

i think if you want or expect an answer/solution pronto, you should probably just return the ensemble because i don't believe we will be getting an answer anytime soon.

the random offset problem still exists - it has not been fixed - and yes, it is unacceptable

i can tell you for a fact that apogee is still present on this forum, they are just not answering this question.

when i posted some questions on an earlier thread here, leon replied to me directly (we had already been in contact over email) instead of via the forum... so that is proof that they are reading

what i really don't appreciate about dealing with apogee directly is that they won't acknowledge this driver /random offset issue. leon sent me an email and said that he had never heard of other customers experiencing this problem... which is obviously not true considering he has read the threads here

i certainly wish i could return my ensemble

bye, jason

[goldphinga]

Can somebody say for sure that this issue is a real problem?????

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally Posted by s o l v e n t

what i really don't appreciate about dealing with apogee directly is that they won't acknowledge this driver /random offset issue. leon sent me an email and said that he had never heard of other customers experiencing this problem... which is obviously not true considering he has read the threads here

Wasn't the issue that a group of disgruntled mLAN users who have a problem with Apple's driver joined Gearslutz in order to use the publicity for the Ensemble as a way to get attention and a fix for their own problem? They are assuming that their problem with random offset will also be a problem with the Ensemble since both rely on the Apple driver.

And so the Apogee people get suddenly silent.

So my guess is that the Apogee folks are investigating the extent to which the clever publicity-leveraging mLAN folks are correct.

So if the mLANians are correct, and the problem also effects the Ensemble, then the Apogee folks are probably working like hell to expedite a solution. Thus, the mLANian's strategery will have worked for them.

But it's also possible that it's a tempest in a teapot, and the problem for the Ensemble is nonexistent, negligeable or easilly dealt with.

So I guess we're waiting for the Apogee folks to resurface and let us know what's up. And it's likely that they're waiting for the Apple folks to resurface and let them know what's up.

-matt

[s o l v e n t]

Originally Posted by goldphinga

Can somebody say for sure that this issue is a real problem?????

yes, *i* can tell you that it is... do i not count?

y'all should re-read the thread. there is only 1 guy who came to the thread as a "disgruntled mLan user" -- i have never used mLan -- i am an Ensemble user who noticed the offset and went to came to this forum looking for answers

if you read the thread more thoroughly, you will discover that 100% of Ensemble users who tested their unit for the random offset problem confirmed that it does exist. (it didn't bother everybody, but they DID at least acknowledge that it's true).

there were also users who compared the offset to other units on the market that DO NOT rely on Apple FW Audio drivers (eg, MOTU) and found that the offset was greater with the Ensemble.

i compared it to the Presonus Firebox and found that it had a comparable random offset issue, because the Presonus also relies on Apple FW Audio drivers.

if offset which compares poorly to much cheaper audio interfaces on the market, &/or random offset, are unacceptable to you, then you should return or avoid buying an Ensemble until (or IF) Apogee steps up and tells us when this driver issue will be resolved. or you can be in the same boat as me, owning a $2G piece of hardware with a "beta driver"

bye, jason

[Schmacko]

Doesn't the firewire card for Prism ADA8-XR use Apple's firewire driver? Now, they should be super pissed - all 7 people that own them <img src="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/winknudge.gif">

[ToddS]

From my experience with Apogee, I would bet that they are doing everything they can to address it, which, since its Apple's driver, is probably not much except to push Apple to fix it.

[flwehr]

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

Wasn't the issue that a group of disgruntled mLAN users who have a problem with Apple's driver joined Gearslutz in order to use the publicity for the Ensemble as a way to get attention and a fix for their own problem? They are assuming that their problem with random offset will also be a problem with the Ensemble since both rely on the Apple driver.

And so the Apogee people get suddenly silent.

So my guess is that the Apogee folks are investigating the extent to which the clever publicity-leveraging mLAN folks are correct.

So if the mLANians are correct, and the problem also effects the Ensemble, then the Apogee folks are probably working like hell to expedite a solution. Thus, the mLANian's strategery will have worked for them.

But it's also possible that it's a tempest in a teapot, and the problem for the Ensemble is nonexistent, negligeable or easilly dealt with.

So I guess we're waiting for the Apogee folks to resurface and let us know what's up. And it's likely that they're waiting for the Apple folks to resurface and let them know what's up.

-matt

IMO tempest in a teapot is about right. Sorry, but the only way 20-30 sample offset (<1 msec) is going to be audible is if you are patching out to outboard gear.

This is a beta driver. I haven't had any of the instability problems that solvent reports, and I can understand his frustration with those. But keep in mind - no one knew about this offset issue until the mLan folks (who have a much more serious problem with 1000s of sample random offset) flagged it. And the reason is that no one can hear it.

As an experiment, drag a drum loop into your sequencer, pan it hard left. Drag another loop at the same tempo into an adjecent track, pan it hard right. Listen. Offset track B by 30 samples. Listen again. This is the sonic equivalent of standing between two percussionists - one on your left side, one on your right - and leaning slightly to one side.

And, in the event that it is an issue, all you need to do is spend about 2 minutes at the start of a session measuring the offset and adjusting for it in Logic. If you don't reboot your computer or Ensemble, there is no issue within a session - the driver is sample-accurate. So it is negligible, and there is a workaround.

All the newsgroup bandwidth about the Ensemble is being chewed up with this issue. I'd love to see some A/B comparisons of mic pres and A/D - I can only speak from my personal experience which has been uniformly positive, both in terms of stability and - especially - how it sounds.

-Fred

[s o l v e n t]

Originally Posted by flwehr

IMO tempest in a teapot is about right. Sorry, but the only way 20-30 sample offset (<1 msec) is going to be audible is if you are patching out to outboard gear...... As an experiment, drag a drum loop into your sequencer, pan it hard left. Drag another loop at the same tempo into an adjecent track, pan it hard right. Listen. Offset track B by 30 samples. Listen again. This is the sonic equivalent of standing between two percussionists - one on your left side, one on your right - and leaning slightly to one side.

20-30 samples? in my experience, it is closer to 200-300. try that -- i can certianly hear it...

i have been recording with the ensemble using your workaround of adjusting the offset at the start of my sessions... it's time consuming and IMO unacceptable.... i mean i guess if Apogee would say, "this will be resolved within the next few weeks" then i could live with it, but i'm wondering if we are ever going to get beyond the "beta driver" stage.

i'm happy for you that this is negligible to your ears... but for those of us that expect better-than-beta performance out of a $2G unit, i think the more bandwidth on this subject, the better --- it will hopefully convince people to avoid buying this product until it has proper drivers... IMO the issue needs to be brought to the attention of potential customers of any unit that is using Apple's FWA drivers

if i come off like i'm bashing Apogee, it is only because I think it was a bad decision for a company with such a professional reputation to not do their homework on Apple's history with FWA driver support..... i know that Apple is the real problem here, but i really wish Apogee would come clean on the subject.... i suppose it is the case that they are not even able to do so, legally

PS for those of you who are still wondering if this issue is "real" or not, consider this: where are the reviews of the Ensemble in all of the recording mags? i have yet to see one... coincidence? if i had've had a chance to read a review, i likely would have been informed by the reviewer of the Ensemble's performance issues.... surely these reviewers would've inquired on an ETA for the final driver... hey Apogee, if you stand behind this product as you claim you do, please tell us when we can expect to read a review in Sound On Sound, Tape Op, EQ, etc....?

bye, jason

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by s o l v e n t

20-30 samples? in my experience, it is closer to 200-300. try that -- i can certianly hear it...

i have been recording with the ensemble using your workaround of adjusting the offset at the start of my sessions... it's time consuming and IMO unacceptable.... i mean i guess if Apogee would say, "this will be resolved within the next few weeks" then i could live with it, but i'm wondering if we are ever going to get beyond the "beta driver" stage.

i'm happy for you that this is negligible to your ears... but for those of us that expect better-than-beta performance out of a $2G unit, i think the more bandwidth on this subject, the better --- it will hopefully convince people to avoid buying this product until it has proper drivers... IMO the issue needs to be brought to the attention of potential customers of any unit that is using Apple's FWA drivers

if i come off like i'm bashing Apogee, it is only because I think it was a bad decision for a company with such a professional reputation to not do their homework on Apple's history with FWA driver support..... i know that Apple is the real problem here, but i really wish Apogee would come clean on the subject.... i suppose it is the case that they are not even able to do so, legally

PS for those of you who are still wondering if this issue is "real" or not, consider this: where are the reviews of the Ensemble in all of the recording mags? i have yet to see one... coincidence? if i had've had a chance to read a review, i likely would have been informed by the reviewer of the Ensemble's performance issues.... surely these reviewers would've inquired on an ETA for the final driver... hey Apogee, if you stand behind this product as you claim you do, please tell us when we can expect to read a review in Sound On Sound, Tape Op, EQ, etc....?

bye, jason

I will give you 1K for it right now.

[flwehr]

Originally Posted by s o l v e n t

20-30 samples? in my experience, it is closer to 200-300. try that -- i can certianly hear it...

Jason - Whoa, have you measured 200-300 sample offset? If that is the kind of variation you are experiencing, you're right - that is going to be audible and unacceptable. But I am surprised to hear that, since on the other thread you said that your measured offsets doing the loopback test were similar to what I posted:

-180 --
-150 30 samples
-175 25 samples
-175 0 samples
-172 3 samples
-100 72 samples

I am going to run a few more tonight just to see if these offsets are representative.

I do not disagree with anything you say about Apogee and Apple's responsibility regarding this issue. And maybe it is in our interests to keep the pressure on - I agree that it should be fixed prior to final release. I suspect Apogee really really wishes they didn't have to release this box late, with a beta driver.

My intent is not to be an Apogee fanboy, but I do think that, based on my experience with the Ensemble, this issue is being a little overblown, from a practical point of view. I cannot help but think either (1) for some reason you are getting larger random offsets on reboot than I measured or (2) you've got something additional going on that's causing timing problems.

-Fred

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally Posted by s o l v e n t

i'm happy for you that this is negligible to your ears... but for those of us that expect better-than-beta performance out of a $2G unit, i think the more bandwidth on this subject, the better --- it will hopefully convince people to avoid buying this product until it has proper drivers... IMO the issue needs to be brought to the attention of potential customers of any unit that is using Apple's FWA drivers

I'm sorry you're having these difficulties too and don't mean to sound like an Apogee apologist either. Personally, I wouldn't buy an Ensemble with a beta driver. I'd like one for sure, but it just made sense to me to wait until the unit shipped with all of its arms, legs, and fingers attached.

Apogee didn't pretend that it's beta was an alpha. It was between a rock and a hard place and decided to level with customers and give them the option of accepting their hardware with an un-final version of the software. My choice was to wait. Your choice was not to wait. Your expectation for "better-than-beta" performance out of a 2k unit is misplaced. It could cost 200k. The software is beta no matter how much you paid for the hardware. Beta is beta is beta. So why the surprise when the software is... beta?

Again, I'm sorry for your problems but Apogee didn't lie to you and you accepted the unit with eyes wide open. And obviously, the problems will be fixed, it's just a matter of time. How much time? Apogee is in the same boat you are in. You are both waiting for Apple.

Originally Posted by s o l v e n t

if i come off like i'm bashing Apogee, it is only because I think it was a bad decision for a company with such a professional reputation to not do their homework on Apple's history with FWA driver support..... i know that Apple is the real problem here, but i really wish Apogee would come clean on the subject.... i suppose it is the case that they are not even able to do so, legally

They did their homework and the partnership with Apple is a real coup. This seems like a really great product and when the software catches up to the hardware, this will all be water under the bridge.

If you needed a mission critical interface, you shouldn't have bought something on the bleeding edge with a beta driver. You should have waited. Even so, Apogee seems like it is trying to make its customers happy, and there are a number of Ensemble owners who seem happy. A lot of the unhappiness is being driven by a contingency of mLAN owners who have exploited the spectacular interest in the Ensemble to draw attention to their own problems.

And for all I know, the handful of folks who joined Gearslutz solely to participate in the Ensemble thread, with post counts of 2 or 3 could all be the same person. The main mLAN guy who joined the thread was both cunning and successful at manipulating the thread to focus on his own personal concern. I have no idea if the other new users are also him and provide a clever mechanism for him to create a fake back and forth. The thread had over 40,000 views, he pops up, and all of a sudden the thread is all about him, with a cadre of new Gearslutz (who have no history outside of that thread) accomodating his point of view.

Which is not to say that the mLAN guy and the other new users are all entirely on the level. It's just that I have no way of knowing.

Originally Posted by s o l v e n t

PS for those of you who are still wondering if this issue is "real" or not, consider this: where are the reviews of the Ensemble in all of the recording mags? i have yet to see one... coincidence? if i had've had a chance to read a review, i likely would have been informed by the reviewer of the Ensemble's performance issues.... surely these reviewers would've inquired on an ETA for the final driver... hey Apogee, if you stand behind this product as you claim you do, please tell us when we can expect to read a review in Sound On Sound, Tape Op, EQ, etc....?

My view as a potential reviewer would be the same as a potential customer: I would not review or buy a beta version.

You had the option to buy beta. it's a free country, more or less, so all the power to you if you want to buy beta. But if you do, how can you complain that it's beta?

Finally, believe me that mLAN is not Apogee. There is not all that much interest in catering to mLAN, but Apple is interested in making the Ensemble work and establishing a marriage of hardware and software to compete with ProTools. That is why the mLAN folks are exploiting interest in the Ensemble rather than vice versa.

-matt

[flwehr]

Ran the offset test a bunch (15) more times. Average random offset = 33 samples, minimum 9, maximum 80. So largest meaured in ~20 tests is less than 2 msec, average is less than 1 msec. Sample accurate in successive Logic sessions, unless either the Ensemble or Mac is restarted.

Needs to be fixed - yes, absolutely. I think Apogee can be pretty sure that, after all of this bruhaha, their customer base will pay careful attention to the final (non-beta) driver performance, and these offsets better be gone. But it is not like you can't use the Ensemble as it is.

I had a session over the weekend with a experienced studio artist - he and I are working up some arrangements for a concert in Alexandria later in the year. He recorded some of his material with a AKG414 on vocals, 2xKM84s on the acoustic gtr neck plus a LR Baggs pickup DIed, all recorded into the Ensemble preamps. Both of us were just amazed by the quality of what were supposed to be "scratch" tracks - absolutely beautiful.

-Fred

[Schmacko]

At this point, the Ensemble's Beta driver is the ONLY drawback to this interface - it's just too good to give up. But, at the same time, it's dissapointing on the consumer side of things to observe development at such a "stand-still". We're midway through September and have only seen one driver update way back at the end of July.

I'm not knocking the Ensemble, or Apogee; but, I also don't think I'm alone in thinking that the Beta driver phase would progress more rapidly with a steady communication between developers and consumers.

If the random sample offset is only 1-2 samples currently with Ensemble, I can deal with that DURING BETA PHASE. We just need to get things moving; i.e., support up to 192k sample rates, and being able to switch on/off the Ensemble without shutting down our whole system. I expected at least that by now.

[flwehr]

Originally Posted by Schmacko

At this point, the Ensemble's Beta driver is the ONLY drawback to this interface - it's just too good to give up. But, at the same time, it's dissapointing on the consumer side of things to observe development at such a "stand-still". We're midway through September and have only seen one driver update way back at the end of July.

I'm not knocking the Ensemble, or Apogee; but, I also don't think I'm alone in thinking that the Beta driver phase would progress more rapidly with a steady communication between developers and consumers.

If the random sample offset is only 1-2 samples currently with Ensemble, I can deal with that DURING BETA PHASE. We just need to get things moving; i.e., support up to 192k sample rates, and being able to switch on/off the Ensemble without shutting down our whole system. I expected at least that by now.

I agree. And I suspect it is the Apple factor that is rate limiting. Anyone remember Logic 7.0?

[s o l v e n t]

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

Apogee didn't pretend that it's beta was an alpha. It was between a rock and a hard place and decided to level with customers and give them the option of accepting their hardware with an un-final version of the software. My choice was to wait. Your choice was not to wait. Your expectation for "better-than-beta" performance out of a 2k unit is misplaced. It could cost 200k. The software is beta no matter how much you paid for the hardware. Beta is beta is beta. So why the surprise when the software is... beta?

you made the right choice, i made the wrong choice... no disputes about that!

i guess my experience with stuff like this lead me to believe that if i company releases a product with a bad driver, they will work quickly to fix the problems, and will also keep the users informed on the status... this is a very different situation, where the company responsible for fixing the problem (Apple) probably doesn't care about this issue much if at all. i am sure that if Apogee could resolve this issue, they would do so ASAP

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

And obviously, the problems will be fixed, it's just a matter of time. How much time? Apogee is in the same boat you are in. You are both waiting for Apple.

"obviously", huh? if i could be assured that this issue *will* be resolved, then i wouldn't be so worried... i bet there were mLan users who were pretty confident that their issues would be resolved too.... 2 years later, they are not.

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

This seems like a really great product and when the software catches up to the hardware, this will all be water under the bridge.

make that "when" an "if".... anyway i hope you are right.

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

A lot of the unhappiness is being driven by a contingency of mLAN owners who have exploited the spectacular interest in the Ensemble to draw attention to their own problems.

And for all I know, the handful of folks who joined Gearslutz solely to participate in the Ensemble thread, with post counts of 2 or 3 could all be the same person. The main mLAN guy who joined the thread was both cunning and successful at manipulating the thread to focus on his own personal concern. I have no idea if the other new users are also him and provide a clever mechanism for him to create a fake back and forth. The thread had over 40,000 views, he pops up, and all of a sudden the thread is all about him, with a cadre of new Gearslutz (who have no history outside of that thread) accomodating his point of view.

ElmerFudd is the only mLan user who contributed to the thread. i felt that he did a good job of trying to present some facts without taking the thread too off-topic towards the mLan-specifics.... as for myself, i'm a recording artist (www.solventcity.com) -- check my "studio" setup -- no mLan or Yamaha gear there, period... i just switched over from a MOTU 828

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

You had the option to buy beta. it's a free country, more or less, so all the power to you if you want to buy beta. But if you do, how can you complain that it's beta?

i can accept that it's beta for now, but won't accept that it may still be beta 1 year or more from now...

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

Finally, believe me that mLAN is not Apogee. There is not all that much interest in catering to mLAN, but Apple is interested in making the Ensemble work and establishing a marriage of hardware and software to compete with ProTools. That is why the mLAN folks are exploiting interest in the Ensemble rather than vice versa.

please put an end to all of this "mLan folks" conspiracy stuff... it is completely ridiculous and unfounded. i hope you are right that Apple really has a serious interest in this product. my feeling is that if they really did care, they would've delivered a working driver by now.

btw, i just contacted the editor of Sound On Sound about this issue (Apple's FWA drivers' poor performance), and he told me that he has heard about this from several people, and that he has asked Apple to provide an answer...!

bye, jason

[ElmerJFudd]

I stumbled across this thread today...
I tried to avoid getting offended by MattiMatt's accusations. But by the time I reached the bottom of his post, I realized he most likely intended to offend anyway (or at least be slanderous). It's OK, I'll live... but I will comment...

What MattiMatt is doing is attempting to discredit me (not really just me, but you get the idea). By doing so, he makes my integrity (and the integrity of others who also experience "random offset") the focus of the discussion and draws attention away from the issue that really matters - Does Apple's Firewire Audio Driver suffer from "Random Offset" as it has been documented and described in many threads across the audio forums?

Its a very old strategy really, and Matti has executed it with such finesse that it is I, now, who have grown suspicious of Matti. Matti, do you work for Apogee? No? Ah, Apple perhaps? You must! I mean, you have gone to such great lengths to make sure that we don't perceive you as an "apogee apologist". And comments like, "Personally, I wouldn't buy an Ensemble with a beta driver" are really effective at throwing us off the scent. But let's look closer at your points...

"Apogee didn't lie to you and you accepted the unit with eyes wide open."

"...the partnership with Apple is a real coup."

"obviously, the problems will be fixed, it's just a matter of time."

"Apogee is in the same boat you are in. You are both waiting for Apple."

My my... I think I changed my mind again, its not Apple... you work for Apogee, don't you? Come on... it's Apogee, right?

OK, enough of this game... MattiMatt I don't really think you are a corporate plant, and even if you are, I don't care. But know this...

Just because many customers of Presonus, Fucusrite, Yamaha, Apogee, Behringer, Roland, etc. have not delved deeply enough into their gear to uncover a serious flaw does not mean that said flaw does not exist. However, I acknowledge that manufacturers are far less likely to spend R&D resources on issues that very few are complaining about (even if they are entirely aware of the problem).

Knowing there was something wrong in my rig, I spent a considerable amount of time documenting the behavior and asking others to confirm in an effort to help Apple help us. After much investigation it appears that "us" may very well be a wider group of users than I first suspected - encompassing customers of several manufacturers. Thankfully, the figures being reported by Ensemble users are considerably smaller than what I have seen in my rig - even with these beta drivers.

I don't really have much more to add than that. I have no doubt that the issue now known as the "random offset" is being investigated by all parties concerned (manufacturers and customers alike). Hopefully a fix is forthcoming.

On a side note, I second Jason's comment, enough with the conspiracy theories. If you are a fan of firewire for audio and you want to see it succeed as a viable alternative to USB, ethernet, PCI, etc. then you should care about what your fellow users are saying and stop attempting to belittle a problem or brush it under the table.

[s o l v e n t]

Well, well... I just got an email from Apogee (a registered user email, not a personal 1) that a new driver has been put up on the site... Haven't had a chance to check if it is still a beta version or not and likely won't have a chance until later this week, but looking forward to seeing what this is....

bye, Jason

[bejeeber]

Originally Posted by s o l v e n t

please put an end to all of this "mLan folks" conspiracy stuff... it is completely ridiculous and unfounded....

Have to agree - it is a conspiracy theory that's starting to seem a bit on the bizarre and paranoid side.

[Puppeteer]

I don't want to hijack this thread further than it already has been, but I wanted to jump in here in support of Elmer J Fudd. The random offset issue was something that took a long time to identify on the mLAN system, and even longer for Yamaha to acknowledge. It affects us all, and I for one don't want to see it swept under the carpet.

Have a read of this thread http://www.01xray.com/forums/showfla...&fpart=23&vc=1 for a bit of history on this, and the extent of testing that myself, and others did to verify this.

At first, I didn't notice this, and it was only after sequencing some intricate drum patterns that I really noticed this problem as my drum patterns turned to mush. Going in, and manually re-aligning the recordings, brought the pristine drums back.

Some systems (including mine) couldn't even be calibrated because the act of calibrating caused the mLAN driver to reset, and that was a real problem.

It's certainly true that you can work around these issues, but the fact that you need to kind of defeats the entire point of PDC, especially with external effects loops, using hardware.

On XP, Yamaha finally fixed this with v 1.5.5, of the driver, but the problem still exists in OSX. Initially we thought that this was a problem with the mLAN driver, but it became increasingly clear as time went on that this problem was deeper than that, and users of firewire interfaces from many manufacturers, including Apogee were also experiencing similar problems.

For mLAN, we know that Yamaha understand this problem, and that they know how to fix it and are willing to fix it, because they did it with the XP driver. This indicates to me, that either this problem cannot be fixed on the mac, or that it's not within Yamaha's power to fix.

Regardless of what audio interface I use, the fact that audio being recorded is moved relative to other audio is seriously annoying, regardless of whether this occurs within the same session, or over subsequent sessions. It adds an extra step into the recording process that should be unnecessary, that being to manually align the recordings, or to calibrate your system every time you start work.

Ensemble users are lucky in that the random offsets are relatively small, and difficult to hear, but even a 30 sample offset is enough to cause serious phase problems. If you understand the problem, then it is fairly easy to work around.

The facts are this. The random offset problem is real for OSX, on mLAN, and has not been fixed despite being identified a year ago. Ensemble users that have tested for this also appear to have the problem, as do users of other firewire intefaces that rely on Apples FW driver. There is a workaround, but it is annoying, and you need to understand the nature of the problem in order to implement the workaround. This problem does not exist on similar systems under Windows XP, or even OS9. Under OSX, interfaces using the apple FW driver are not sample accurate across sessions.

Apple has been synonymous with professional audio, and is generally highly regarded in this area, but currently there are better solutions available using an OS of their competitor. mLAN users are fortunate because we can move our equipment to a PC to fix this problem. Unfortunately Ensemble users don't have this option, and if I owned and Ensemble, I'd be pretty upset about this.

For the sake of all of us, I dearly hope that it doesn't take another year before we see a fix for this problem. It's one of the issues that's preventing me from moving across to OSX in my studio, despite already owning a mac, for this purpose.

[goldphinga]

got an email from apogee tech support with driver version 1.16.

Does anyone know what the enhancements are?

[Sizzleboy]

Originally Posted by Jonsey

I make house music, only ever use two inputs for guitar, vocals or bass, I have only one synth and the rest are plugs (2 outs on the Rosetta are redundant). My DA16x is plumbed into a NEVE 8816 summing mixer. It may sound strange but actually it sounds lovely!

Ah, very nice!