Heavy guitars tuning issue when recording

[SLy_drums]

I've been recording a thrash metal band for a 4 songs demo and now that it's done, I can hear the guitars are not properly in tune.

I'm not a guitarist and do not really have the ears (I really must work on that) to know if it's right in tune or not.

We have been using a Les Paul Studio guitar with classic EMG pickups. Les Pauls are known for their detuning properties, and even more if they are tuned low.

Here's a raw drums/guitars extract (except some awful plastic sounding triggers on the drums and some slight EQ on the guitars) :
http://sylvain.raulin.free.fr/Meltdawn.wav
And the levels are saturating, that was just a quick bounce.

What do you think ? Do I have to retrack the guitars ?
May I use another guitar with thicker strings ?
What would you do if you were me ?

[Blast9]

Hey Sylvain,

I can't listen to your track at work right now, but I had a similar problem in the studio both with a Tele and a PRS. (I was the artiste being recorded)

As usual, the main intonation problem was on the G string.

We resolved the issue by putting heavier strings on and adjusting the intonation, and constantly tuning up between takes

Try .60 on the low E up to .12 on the high E, maybe a .24 wound G ?

Dave Grohl from the Foo Fighters uses .60 on all his gibsons' low E strings

If it is 2 different guitars it can be a real bitch, so you may consider using just 1 guitar and changing amp settings.

[fastlane]

Originally Posted by SLy_drums

I've been recording a thrash metal band for a 4 songs demo and now that it's done, I can hear the guitars are not properly in tune.

I'm not a guitarist and do not really have the ears (I really must work on that) to know if it's right in tune or not.

We have been using a Les Paul Studio guitar with classic EMG pickups. Les Pauls are known for their detuning properties, and even more if they are tuned low.

Here's a raw drums/guitars extract (except some awful plastic sounding triggers on the drums and some slight EQ on the guitars) :
http://sylvain.raulin.free.fr/Meltdawn.wav
And the levels are saturating, that was just a quick bounce.

What do you think ? Do I have to retrack the guitars ?
May I use another guitar with thicker strings ?
What would you do if you were me ?

Just had a listen there. It sounds to me like the guitars are in tune but the guitarist was either bending the strings a touch or hitting the strings too hard when he strikes some chords. I imagine it's a bit of both.

The only way to get it perfect is to do a retake but you could try using a quality pitch changer on the first strum of the out of tune chords. This will be a pain in the ass to get right and you can sometimes get a slight click if it's not done right. The adjustment would be - 15 to -25 percent of a semitone. I've done it before and it worked, anymore that + or - 25 and the character of the notes change too much!

On a positive note, what is it like when the bass and vocals are on there?? It might give the song a touch of character when everything is playing!! Sometime perfection isn't always best for a song.
Best of luck with it!
If you have time post the full song too

[SLy_drums]

Thanks guys, your answers are really useful !

I don't think we are going to re-record all the parts, but I'll take care very muc more next time.
And i'm going to try the pitch correction soon.

fastlane : that's what a friend of mine said, that error can also have something musical to it. But i'll try to avoid that at all prices, by using a completely checked guitar with thicker strings next time

[stevep]

This is the classic example of what happens when a player grows up using a tuner instead of tuning by ear.


learn to tune by ear and you will not be able to stand and wont miss out of tune tracks.

as an engineer we want the record to be the best it can be, but it is the job of the player to tune his instrument

so.........

Blast9 .What would you do if you were me ?

If its just a demo i wouldn't worry to much, you can ask them if they want to spend more $$ to re track

what does it sound like with the bass

what do the vocals sound like ?

is it worth putting the extra $ $$$ into fixing the guitars if all the vocals do is scream and do grunting cookie monster sounds




Its all about the feel ! Remember its rock n roll .... let it rock !



As far as sharing guitars and amps thats a no no ....

You can get a way better sound with 2 separate rigs.

you should always check tuning before every song or overdubs
(and have everyone use the same tuner)




It really boils down to does the band want to spend the $$ to re track.

[e-cue]

Hmm... kinda sounds like messed up guitar intonation to me...

Got a strobe tuner?

[fastlane]

Originally Posted by SLy_drums

Thanks guys, your answers are really useful !

I don't think we are going to re-record all the parts, but I'll take care very muc more next time.
And i'm going to try the pitch correction soon.

fastlane : that's what a friend of mine said, that error can also have something musical to it. But i'll try to avoid that at all prices, by using a completely checked guitar with thicker strings next time

One word of warning, if you use much thicker strings then the guitar will have to be completely setup again! The intonation will change and you might get some fret buzz. On a Les Paul studio (if it's setup right) you should need to use more than a set of 10's. Anything heavier than 11's and you could get more problem than you solve.

If it's you guitar bring it into a good guitar shop and see if they can set it up for you, use the same gauge strings from then on.
A mate of mine had a Gibson les paul studio and it didn't hold the tuning well, so he bought the best Gibson machine heads he could find, brought it to a guitar shop and got them professional fitted as well as getting the guitar fully set up, now it can't go out of tune unless you spend all day bending the f$#k out of them.

[numrologst]

the best thing you can do is have the artist tune to the key they are playing in. After every cut, retune.

Get a good strobe tuner. And make sure they tune every cut, and tune to the key they are playing. It makes the world of differnce

[dirren]

Originally Posted by fastlane

It sounds to me like the guitars are in tune but the guitarist was either bending the strings a touch or hitting the strings too hard when he strikes some chords.

I just had similar probs and re-tracked. Don't think you'll get a good result in retuning. It might be the guitarists neck hand that's not pressing down the strings at a proper angle.

/Matt

[Kiwiburger]

Something worth thinking about is the fact that the pitch of a string rises with amplitude. So when you strike it hard, the pitch goes way up, then settles down.

(Great example is Helter Skelter - Beatles White Album - for the most aggressive playing in the history of rock).

When using a tuner, most people look at the needle when the string settles down. But if you are recording fast, heavy guitar playing this will cause sharp intonation. Tune according to the type and speed of playing.

Also - don't tune to open notes, unless you are playing a lot of open notes.

Tune often, and tune to the chords you are using. Tuning by ear or to a piano can be better than a tuner. Especially if you have a piano in a mix - they are often stretch tuning anyway.

[Thumper]

While you're tracking, have the muso keep an eye on a tuner. Like a Korg rack tuner or something. If it's a little sharp, have him let up on the strings a little bit, or not strum as hard. If it's flat, have him press the strings down more.

That's the only way that I know of to keep guitars in tune while tracking... Unless they're just really really good guitar players...

[max cooper]

I've owned two Les Paul standards that had problems with the G string staying in tune.

They both visited numerous techs over the years, but the problem remained.

[Blast9]

It seems the only solution to get your guitar spot-on is to use the Buzz Feiten* compensated nut, or that weird "wiggly frets" system which Steve Vai uses on a couple of his guitars.

otherwise, as suggested by others, and what I resorted to: Tune the guitar by ear once you're "in tune" according to the part of the neck you're playing any different sections of a song.

* That's similar how piano tuners work --- certain notes slightly flatter or sharper than absolute pitch, because it sounds good, or as it should: CF "Tempered Tuning"

G-string: notoriusly hard to tune!

[Led]

Kiwiburger hit it on the head. Music with a lot of fast percussive attacks on any plucked instrument will be a bit sharp compared to any tuner. If it's a demo and they think it's ok live with it if not retrack. Make them listen to each other if you do (oh dude, so that's what you play in that song, man I've never heard it before)

[nathanvacha]

I have problems with the g-string on my gibson as well. it's an sg, not an lp though. I find i really just have to listen for it while i'm playing and pay close attention to my fretting.

If it's a young band, i blame musicianship and not just tuning... esp. heavy guitar music... they're probably not used to what they should be listening for.

go for feel.

I can't listen to it right now either, so keep that in mind if you read my answer.

[BrettPortzer]

The Les Paul Studio is especially problematic with this, in my experience.

In three separate tracking situations, with 3 separate players, all using different Les Paul Studios, I have had the same problems.

[dasoundjunkie]

Have the guitars checked by a guitar tech who knows his shit and use heavy guage strings, no less than starting at .11, preferably .12.
Good luck

[octatonic]

It can also come down to the particular player.
An experienced player will hit the fretboard with the same amount of force no matter how technically difficult the part.
An inexperienced player might "really get into it" in the easier parts, hitting the fretboard harder and stretching the strings out of tune slightly.

Same thing with over/underbending- I hate it when someone is "really going for it" only to underbend a tad. Nails on a chalkboard.

[studilaroche]

I have a '63 Gibson 125 that's set up for 11's with a wound G - makes all the difference.
Ben

[dtucker]

Yeah, if a guitar's intonation is off you'll have to do start with a tuner and then fine tune by ear. And, then, retune after every take!

Also, I only listened for a little bit, but I would be more concerned with the timing issues I heard. This kind of music...the instruments need to be TIGHT with the drums and the beginning part of that song was off. It takes away from the power when it's not TIGHT!!

If you retrack (and I would) tune after every take. Or just have the guitar player get the guitar properly setup before you do.

[mitchell]

This may sound silly, but one way I've gotten around power chord tuning issues is to just play root/5th and no octave. And tune the guitar to the most frequently occurring chords in the tune. Often.

One thing you can do is to put a tuner on an aux send of the board so it's ALWAYS on. But trust your ears over a tuner if you need to play big chords!

mitchell

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by dtucker

Yeah, if a guitar's intonation is off you'll have to do start with a tuner and then fine tune by ear. And, then, retune after every take!

Werd, but even then, some notes will still slightly be off. Could be perfectly in tune on one part of the neck and slightly off on the same string on a different part of the neck. Unless the intonation is corrected, expect imperfection. Most of the time, it's splitting hairs, sometimes not. I ran into this a lot when I lived in Florida (humidity, heat, etc).

I always felt like tuning a guitar without at least checking the intonation was sortah like aligning a tape machine and not checking the azimuth.

Typically, I go though all this mess only to have a rap producer come in with a varisped sample that has all sorts of weird tuning anomalies, in which case you go my ear and call it art. Hopefully you are working with competant talent. If not, there's a ton of variables that can mess up your situation- guitar pick thickness, strings, etc...

Your results may differ.

[ToddF]

Lot's of good suggestions here.

The tuning doesn't sound too bad to me. The worst is the last few chords of the songs. I sometimes edit chords or notes that are out of tune and insert good ones. I would think pitch correcting chords as someone suggested wouldn't work as usually all the notes aren't equally out of tune. Maybe it works though.

I work with a lot of heavy bands and lots of down tuning. I have found the biggest problem to be pushing too hard on the fretboard. It takes a gentle touch.

Of course you have to have the guitar tuned properly and that takes a good ear and an experienced person to help the inexperienced player. A strobe is more accurate than most other tuners. If you can get one do it.
I have found the Boss pedal tuner and the Boss Boss TU12H are decent.

Todd

[bobx]

ive been through a few gibsons, and i can agree with some of you that the G string is almost ALWAYS the problem.

ime, tuning the the key of the song, and tuning the fretted chords/notes gives me the best results.

[Jschulze]

I play in a band with dropped tuning (drop C) and even with a properly setup/tuned guitar, it still takes soft touch with the left hand to make sure things are in tune.

When you really start digging into the fretboard things go out of tune really quick. I've toured with some bands who play in drop B and besides the guitars just sounding like a muddy hole, the notes are all but indistinguishable because they're pulling that floppy bottom string all over the place.

For some bands this is a part of their sound...Every Time I Dies comes to mind...kind of heavy southern rock riffs...works well for them, but definatly not for everybody.

So before you have somebody go through and setup the guitars, just make sure it's not the player. No sense in wasting money when the problem is the guys hands.

[prismtheory]

Hey man. I though the tracks sounded pretty good. The problem is either intonation or the very common problem of people bending up the a and d string when playing power chords. If the music has cookie monster vocals...then I wouldn't worry about it soo much....what I'd be more concerned with is the timing between the drums and guitars which is off to me. Other than that I thought the guitar tone was pretty good. Music has to groove for people to grasp it. If a song doesn't groove most listeners won't notice exactly what's off...they will just subconsciously not get into it.

My opinion anyway. Good luck sir.

-C

[gainiac]

Noob here,

I'm a veteran guitarist (20+ Years), have been recorded quite a bit, understand the process, my writing partner/bass player is a pro engineer....So I understand the basic recording process (Just do what the Engineer says and be polite!!!)

As a self-recordist/engineer, I'm new, but I have a pretty decent home "beginner's" rig.

Alienware machine, Event Studio Precision 8's, PT-LE Digi 002R, UA LA-610, Lucid AD 9624 AD, SM 57, Sennheiser 441, AKG 460B, various Marshalloid custom amps and a Custom Blackface (Twinish) on the way......and a BIG Knob.....( I have ZERO excuse other than my lack of ability if my recordings sound like shite! ::)

Anyhow with regards to tuning...........

I wasn't able to download that track so I can't comment specifically on that material but I have some comments in general.....Lotsa good advice here BTW.....

An "aware" guitar player (musician for that matter) is always listening with a very keen ear to the intonation of his/her instrument while recording. An "aware" guitar player constantly adjusts finger pressure to compensate for any issues.

One thing I see a great deal, especially with more aggressive styles, is a lot less attention to subtle details (by the player) due to the emotionally charged energy that goes into exciting agro music.

The results being chords/notes bent out of tune (unintentionally obviously) due to performance zeal.

Couple that with detuning, light strings, and too much gain/distorion and you get a big sloppy mess.

Some of the few things that seperates the "men from the boys" in the heavier down tuned genres would be:

1. A light controlled touch

2. Purposeful varied rhythmic vibrato and microtonal chord bending for musical emphasis

3. A lot less distortion/ gain and WAY more volume.

(Heavy guitars should KLANK like an M1 Abrams busting through a concrete wall!)

4. Heavier strings.

5. Longer scale length necks on their guitars. 25.5" or longer. 24.75" (Gibson) gets real squirelly unless the strings are heavier and the setup is good

Although you can get good results pitch wise by tuning to the chords/progression you're using in a particular tune you screw with how the guitars natural overtones work interact. The guitar is a temper tuned instrument so it's never meant to be perfectly in tune.

Good players compensate for this by paying attention to what they're playing.

No matter the competency level of any performer I'd say that a few well phrased suggestions paying attention to points as mentioned above can go a long way toward improving the performance.

Always tune between takes, recheck tuning if a window is opened or an AC is turned on, and it makes sense to put on a fresh set of strings that have been properly stretched and put on the instrument. I change strings fast and it takes a good half hour to 45 minutes for a set of strings to be stretched to the point where they tune in a stable fashion.

On especially humid days you can have a great deal of problems because the "nut" may swell on a guitar and when you bend a string it "pinches" at the nut and never returns to proper pitch.

Anyhow, that's just my .02c's worth and uh..............................


Hello to all you fine folks!

Martin

[WidgetNinja]

Gainiac hit the nail on the head.

There's only two issues: the player, and the scale.

Heavy string can help with the scale, but are harder to intonate evenly across the entire board, so you may need to retune for solos or even passages.

There's nothing you can do about a player that can't keep from wonking the strings sharp but ask him to come back in a few years.

Me being a guitar player, I'd probably just be a sneaky shit and fix it myself if you know what I mean.