Put your best ITB forward!

JohnnyTonk · 3rd September 2006, 05:23 AM

Hey guys..

after exhaustive reading of all the ITB vs OTB threads it seems clear that the arguement is very subjective and comes down to factors such as studio budgets, space requirements and personal preference.

One thing that seems to be of importance is comparing ITB mixes to OTB mixes and people's opinions of lack of depth etc on ITB stuff...

..so i was thinking we dedicate this thread to posting your favourite ITB mixes ..(can be yours or someone elses)..

It would also be cool to get some examples of the same material done on each..

I realise that this may not always be terribly practical for engineers to do a mix on each but i thought i'd put it out there anyway...

i'm sure that many of us aren't aware of major label stuff that is known to have been mixed 100% ITB... and i'm sure that posting and listening to some of this material may shed some more light on this debate for alot of people....

Cheers all...

JT

djui5 · 3rd September 2006, 07:06 AM

I can't, but would love to send you a snippet to your e-mail address if you give me that....

RoundBadge · 3rd September 2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyTonk

i'm sure that many of us aren't aware of major label stuff that is known to have been mixed 100% ITB... and i'm sure that posting and listening to some of this material may shed some more light on this debate for alot of people....

Cheers all...

JT

Copyright infrigement is a prob here though..for the commercial stuff.

JohnnyTonk · 3rd September 2006, 08:17 AM

yeah sweet... can we name names instead??

SnakeCained · 3rd September 2006, 09:30 AM

Recently we did the test.

Same mix summed out of Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools and an analogue desk.

results:
Best: desk
2nd: Cubase (!?)
3rd: PTools
4th -
5th Logic

Stay OTB as ITB gives me OCD

JohnnyTonk · 3rd September 2006, 10:20 AM

Jeez i'm glad i'm running logic then!

JohnnyTonk · 3rd September 2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnakeCained

Recently we did the test.

Same mix summed out of Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools and an analogue desk.

results:
Best: desk
2nd: Cubase (!?)
3rd: PTools
4th -
5th Logic

Stay OTB as ITB gives me OCD

any samples to listen to?

Blenn · 3rd September 2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnakeCained

Recently we did the test.

Same mix summed out of Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools and an analogue desk.

results:
Best: desk
2nd: Cubase (!?)
3rd: PTools
4th -
5th Logic

Stay OTB as ITB gives me OCD

Which desk? What was feeding the desk? (2")

What converters for the daws? Sample rates and bit depths?

Paul Blenn

Blenn · 3rd September 2006, 11:32 AM

www.blennproductions.co.uk/Madeline.mp3

Paul Blenn

dbbubba · 3rd September 2006, 05:08 PM

It is almost an impossible argument to win either way because you have several camps that believe what they want because of either economics or experience level.

There are lot of people who are deeply entrenched in the ITB world who have invested a lot of money (at least in their own minds) and have limited experience on analog systems. The fact that digital recording and DAWs are the most convenient way for people to set up a rig and because analog rooms are a rare thing, MANY people can't make a valid comment about the virtues of either method. A guy that uses a digital or DAW day in and day out can't compare the results if he hasn't also spent a lot of time working in the analog or OTB way.

Many people in the camp that uses OTB mixing have come from the days of analog and have experience using a console to mix. There are some who have switched and had the "light bulb" come on over their head.

Using just any analog console will not result in a "better" sonic result. There are more "crap" consoles that "great" consoles out there! You have to have a great sounding console to mix through... period. Otherwise, you won't see a big improvement.

Not that my opinion matters, but thirty years of recording, mixing and jacking around with audio stuff on a full time basis has allowed me to draw some distinct opinions. Considering that I have worked extensively on almost every recording format except maybe Radar, Paris and a few other platforms allows me to make a fairly "enlightened" judgement. A guy who owns a DAW rig and occasionally goes to mix in a room with a console or once did a session in a studio with a console is going to have a jaded response to the question. If a guy has invested thousands of dollars into a rig he isn't going to want to call it "horrible or bad" sounding. It is just human nature.

These same arguments were around in the analog days, too! The sonic differences between MCI, Ampex, Studer and Otari tape decks is fairly pronounced. The difference in the sonic qualities between analog consoles like MCI, Sphere, Neve, SSL, Neotek, API, Soundcraft, etc... is also quite pronounced. We won't even mention the Mackie, TASCAM and other semi-pro stuff. Not all analog studios sounded great. In fact, digital has pretty much resulted in a more homogenous sound if anything! Consider yourself lucky if you entered the game after the DAW revolution! It is much easier to achieve a "pleasant" recording experience with digtal than it was with analog! It is also WAY easier on the pocketbook, too!

I know that I myself sold all of my "big" stuff when I moved my rig home. It took me about three years and several projects to realize that my mixes sounded better with a console! Unfortunately, I sold a great, all discreet, transformer balanced console because I thought that I didn't need it any longer. I highly regret it now! It was huge, but it sounded fantastic! I don't want to think about it.

My two cents (or more) worth.

Danny Brown

JohnnyTonk · 3rd September 2006, 05:35 PM

Don't want to sound like a jerk here danny but i have read many of your other posts on this subject and to be honest it's like you just cut and paste the same post....

i just wanted a thread where people could put up their ITB mixes for others who are mixing ITB to see where they are at re sonic quality..

i certainly wasn't throwing feul on the ITB OTB debate...

dbbubba · 3rd September 2006, 05:54 PM

Sorry it seems so "cut and paste" but it is the only way I can convey the facts.
I feel that a comment from a person that doesn't qualify their experience is meaningless.
I surely don't care if you value my opinion or my level of experience, but I read and hear a lot of rediculously distorted views from people that don't have much actual experience.
I include my background because it should signify that I have a dgree of experience that I base my opinion on.

There have been a lot of posts where people put up a "guess what platform this was mixed on" post complete with examples. I was fooled by one and thought that the DAW mix was better sounding. Then again... maybe it was better!

In my view it doesn't matter, but the question is not for people to justify the equipment that they have purchased. This is what you get from people who have only built one rig or grown along one path. It is only human nature. You just don't spend a lot of money and say.... "I wasted my money!"

After owning, selling, loosing equipment in bad deals for as long as I have I can stand back and make a pretty good comparison!

My personal views about ITB vs. OTB are the same as the guys that I know that are high on the audio food chain.

I could post more example of ITB vs. OTB mixes than you'd ever want to hear, but in the end people woiuld say that I need to get "better" at ITB mixing! I guess I need to tune my ears for the ITB experience?

Danny Brown

dreamsongs · 3rd September 2006, 06:42 PM

Is this another ITB vs OTB thread disguised ?

seaneldon · 3rd September 2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Is this another ITB vs OTB thread disguised ?

pretty poor disguise.

not_so_new · 3rd September 2006, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

pretty poor disguise.

That really did make me LOL... pretty funny.

JohnnyTonk · 4th September 2006, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Is this another ITB vs OTB thread disguised ?

it was honestly not my intention...

picksail · 4th September 2006, 02:31 AM

Who cares?!!!

Just make yourself, the client and all the various entities happy.

All is well.

thedigitalgod · 4th September 2006, 08:16 AM

jt, despite everyone turning this in to an itb vs otb thread, i understand what you were trying to do -- you just wanted to compare the two and hear other itb mixes too see where yours stand. i would like to do the same, but it appears that this thread died in a versus match.

dbbubba · 4th September 2006, 08:35 AM

My point is that it is irrelevent to hear someone else's mixes regardless if they are ITB or OTB. There is no point of reference.

I have nothing more to say.

Glad?

Danny Brown

JohnnyTonk · 4th September 2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedigitalgod

jt, despite everyone turning this in to an itb vs otb thread, i understand what you were trying to do -- you just wanted to compare the two and hear other itb mixes too see where yours stand. i would like to do the same, but it appears that this thread died in a versus match.

Thanks mate that is exactly why i started this thread.... i am just interested to hear other peoples ITB mixes.... i have a lot to learn and i just wanted to hear how far the bar is raised for those with a computer and mouse!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbbubba

My point is that it is irrelevent to hear someone else's mixes regardless if they are ITB or OTB. There is no point of reference.

I have nothing more to say.

You promise..?!!

That comment makes no sense to me at all... and is elitest..

Go find some other ITB thread to

JT

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3rd September 2006, 05:23 AM	#1
JohnnyTonk Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Down South Posts: 120	Put your best ITB forward! Hey guys.. after exhaustive reading of all the ITB vs OTB threads it seems clear that the arguement is very subjective and comes down to factors such as studio budgets, space requirements and personal preference. One thing that seems to be of importance is comparing ITB mixes to OTB mixes and people's opinions of lack of depth etc on ITB stuff... ..so i was thinking we dedicate this thread to posting your favourite ITB mixes ..(can be yours or someone elses).. It would also be cool to get some examples of the same material done on each.. I realise that this may not always be terribly practical for engineers to do a mix on each but i thought i'd put it out there anyway... i'm sure that many of us aren't aware of major label stuff that is known to have been mixed 100% ITB... and i'm sure that posting and listening to some of this material may shed some more light on this debate for alot of people.... Cheers all... JT

3rd September 2006, 07:06 AM	#2
djui5 Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Phoenix Posts: 6,680	I can't, but would love to send you a snippet to your e-mail address if you give me that.... __________________ _________________ "What is a crossfire hurricane & why wasn't I born in one?" Randy Wright http://www.myspace.com/djui5

3rd September 2006, 06:42 PM	#13
dreamsongs Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: FL Posts: 1,418	Is this another ITB vs OTB thread disguised ? __________________ Dreamsongs BMI Dreamsongs Productions Dreamsongs Publishing BMI Dreamsongs LLC " The dream don't come any closer on it's own, you have to go after it "

4th September 2006, 02:31 AM	#17
picksail Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 3,314	Who cares?!!! Just make yourself, the client and all the various entities happy. All is well. __________________ Stewart Cararas Seventh Level Productions Myspace Profile Discogs _________________________________ The new is necessarily abstract - Rudolf Borchadt

3rd September 2006, 08:17 AM	#4
JohnnyTonk Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Down South Posts: 120	yeah sweet... can we name names instead??

3rd September 2006, 09:30 AM	#5
SnakeCained Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: LONDON Posts: 641	Recently we did the test. Same mix summed out of Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools and an analogue desk. results: Best: desk 2nd: Cubase (!?) 3rd: PTools 4th - 5th Logic Stay OTB as ITB gives me OCD

3rd September 2006, 10:20 AM	#6
JohnnyTonk Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Down South Posts: 120	Jeez i'm glad i'm running logic then!

3rd September 2006, 11:32 AM	#9
Blenn Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Liverpool Posts: 403	www.blennproductions.co.uk/Madeline.mp3 Paul Blenn

3rd September 2006, 05:08 PM	#10
dbbubba Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,839	It is almost an impossible argument to win either way because you have several camps that believe what they want because of either economics or experience level. There are lot of people who are deeply entrenched in the ITB world who have invested a lot of money (at least in their own minds) and have limited experience on analog systems. The fact that digital recording and DAWs are the most convenient way for people to set up a rig and because analog rooms are a rare thing, MANY people can't make a valid comment about the virtues of either method. A guy that uses a digital or DAW day in and day out can't compare the results if he hasn't also spent a lot of time working in the analog or OTB way. Many people in the camp that uses OTB mixing have come from the days of analog and have experience using a console to mix. There are some who have switched and had the "light bulb" come on over their head. Using just any analog console will not result in a "better" sonic result. There are more "crap" consoles that "great" consoles out there! You have to have a great sounding console to mix through... period. Otherwise, you won't see a big improvement. Not that my opinion matters, but thirty years of recording, mixing and jacking around with audio stuff on a full time basis has allowed me to draw some distinct opinions. Considering that I have worked extensively on almost every recording format except maybe Radar, Paris and a few other platforms allows me to make a fairly "enlightened" judgement. A guy who owns a DAW rig and occasionally goes to mix in a room with a console or once did a session in a studio with a console is going to have a jaded response to the question. If a guy has invested thousands of dollars into a rig he isn't going to want to call it "horrible or bad" sounding. It is just human nature. These same arguments were around in the analog days, too! The sonic differences between MCI, Ampex, Studer and Otari tape decks is fairly pronounced. The difference in the sonic qualities between analog consoles like MCI, Sphere, Neve, SSL, Neotek, API, Soundcraft, etc... is also quite pronounced. We won't even mention the Mackie, TASCAM and other semi-pro stuff. Not all analog studios sounded great. In fact, digital has pretty much resulted in a more homogenous sound if anything! Consider yourself lucky if you entered the game after the DAW revolution! It is much easier to achieve a "pleasant" recording experience with digtal than it was with analog! It is also WAY easier on the pocketbook, too! I know that I myself sold all of my "big" stuff when I moved my rig home. It took me about three years and several projects to realize that my mixes sounded better with a console! Unfortunately, I sold a great, all discreet, transformer balanced console because I thought that I didn't need it any longer. I highly regret it now! It was huge, but it sounded fantastic! I don't want to think about it. My two cents (or more) worth. Danny Brown

3rd September 2006, 05:35 PM	#11
JohnnyTonk Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Down South Posts: 120	Don't want to sound like a jerk here danny but i have read many of your other posts on this subject and to be honest it's like you just cut and paste the same post.... i just wanted a thread where people could put up their ITB mixes for others who are mixing ITB to see where they are at re sonic quality.. i certainly wasn't throwing feul on the ITB OTB debate...

3rd September 2006, 05:54 PM	#12
dbbubba Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,839	Sorry it seems so "cut and paste" but it is the only way I can convey the facts. I feel that a comment from a person that doesn't qualify their experience is meaningless. I surely don't care if you value my opinion or my level of experience, but I read and hear a lot of rediculously distorted views from people that don't have much actual experience. I include my background because it should signify that I have a dgree of experience that I base my opinion on. There have been a lot of posts where people put up a "guess what platform this was mixed on" post complete with examples. I was fooled by one and thought that the DAW mix was better sounding. Then again... maybe it was better! In my view it doesn't matter, but the question is not for people to justify the equipment that they have purchased. This is what you get from people who have only built one rig or grown along one path. It is only human nature. You just don't spend a lot of money and say.... "I wasted my money!" After owning, selling, loosing equipment in bad deals for as long as I have I can stand back and make a pretty good comparison! My personal views about ITB vs. OTB are the same as the guys that I know that are high on the audio food chain. I could post more example of ITB vs. OTB mixes than you'd ever want to hear, but in the end people woiuld say that I need to get "better" at ITB mixing! I guess I need to tune my ears for the ITB experience? Danny Brown

4th September 2006, 08:16 AM	#18
thedigitalgod Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	jt, despite everyone turning this in to an itb vs otb thread, i understand what you were trying to do -- you just wanted to compare the two and hear other itb mixes too see where yours stand. i would like to do the same, but it appears that this thread died in a versus match.

4th September 2006, 08:35 AM	#19
dbbubba Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,839	My point is that it is irrelevent to hear someone else's mixes regardless if they are ITB or OTB. There is no point of reference. I have nothing more to say. Glad? Danny Brown

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