[B] I had an argument with my Publisher... [/B]

[dreamsongs]

It's been coming for a long time...

I work with a few Publishers in LA, NY and Nashville that I send my material to, sometimes I send other artists work that I produce. This is what happened...

This particular experienced Publisher (no names please) seems to always want to turn every good pop song into a country song. I have some good songs that have a pop tratment/arrangement but have very strong/serious lyrics. He always says they should "go country first"...

The problem is I don't really write country music, mainly pop, rock and AC. I have some pop/country songs in my catalog that because of lyric, chord structure etc could be considered country but that's about it.

I'm a bit frustrated because this guy has good connections and I don't want to blow it. OTOH, he always makes me go back to the drawing board to "make it more country" after I spent hours, days & weeks working on tracking, mixing and mastering the project and delivering a complete finished master. At that point, I don't wanna go back to re-work it...

I'm at the point where I'm either going to sever the ties and not give him any more material or...suck it up because he may be right...

This is a tough decision for me and I'm really not sure what to do ?

I know there are some experienced people on this board and I would love to hear your input on this matter ?

[redddog]

I'll take care of that guy. Just give me his name, number, the best time to reach him and his prefered method of listening and he won't bother you anymore.

Seriously, if the guy has great contacts and you're making some scratch, I'd suck it up. If you hate "going back to the drawing-board," then get him what he wants in the first place. Work other angles for your pop stuff but don't blow this guy off.

That's what I'd do....or I'd tell him to suck it.




(kidding)

[dreamsongs]

The problem is that he has strong connections in Nashville, hence why he wants to push everything in that direction. I wouldn't mind that except it would mean sending it out to get demoed because I don't have the feel for country as I do for other genres.

This never happens when I send material to the other guys in NY or LA. He just thinks that if the lyric content is strong, it shoud be country...

[abit]

Compromises, compromises..

Don't kill yourself over it -#1.
Doesn't matter if it's about publisher or hotdogs.
U're not the 1st one.


Looks like this is his specialty - fine.
Why pee against the wind?..
I wouldn't dump him if he is able to place your songs.
Hey, give him his country.


But what I would do is..
I'd try to work on your connections with more publishers.
Broaden your clientele.
(ez to say..)


Then U might get some choice.
And this is the way I think to get some sort of creative freedom for yourself.
Uknow?!
peace..

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by abit

Hey, give him his country.

This is harder and more expensive than what it seems...

Plus, I would like to write a good song with great lyrics without it having it be country...

[Shandy]

The problem with being a publishing writer versus writing for your own performance or recording is that you need to learn to let go of the song. Once a publisher is interested, consider it no longer your 'baby,' and give it the treatments that will get it cut.

I understand your aversion to country, though-- personally, I think the modern stuff is junk. But also realize that the new country is simply pop with a southern accent and tear-jerker lyrics.

But most importantly, do what you need to in order to stay in this guy's good graces. His connections eventually become your connections, and in time you'll find someone who's a better fit for you.

[BeePee]

I’m a little confused here please straighten me out. Do you have a publishing deal with this publisher or is he serving as a songplugger?

It seems to me he’s a songplugger(or at least a songplugger with pub interest which most of them are) .If he were just a pub and thought your lyric content was Nashvilled I see no reason why he wouldn’t pay for a Nashvanille demo and negotiate a large chunk on the pub split (most likely all !!!) and save all this hassle recording your sound.

Now if he digs your music (which he seems too) but is thinking the lyric is the most pitchable aspect this is the most sensible way for him to do it. . I see no reason to polish a rock/pop/ac song recording for the country market if it don’t have at least an element of Nashvegas in it.

The vibe I’m getting is Nashvillian gatekeepers are getting spoilt by radio ready “demos” made by the elite “hitwriters” that are essential drop in the superstar vox and it’s done!!To me that makes a lot of sense .If I was a label suit with street ears I’d respond much more to a done deal master sounding recording then a “now just imagine this” demo.

It sounds like he might be hearing things right but trying to fit you into too tight of a box. In my ears the new country is a mishmash of 80’s LA metal power ballads with fiddles and steel guitar pads with slightly twanged singers with limited range and vocal expression…just my kind of music!!

…on that note…If the pub can get you some cuts and that’s what you want ..give him what he wants. Let him Nashtrash those tunes on his dime (or you can get your own Fl pickers).Pedal steel and fiddle being the lynch pin because face it …..new country is not even close to country .It’s rock super duper lite with sugar on top. Even pop music has more musical teeth .(Thank gawd someone yanked KZLA!!!)… ...Those demo studios out there(one on every corner) pump this stuff out like sweat at golds gym. If you are inclined… Take the money and run.

..I fell into a burnin ring o fire!!!!

BP

[abit]

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by BeePee

I’m a little confused here please straighten me out. Do you have a publishing deal with this publisher or is he serving as a songplugger?

It seems to me he’s a songplugger(or at least a songplugger with pub interest which most of them are) .If he were just a pub and thought your lyric content was Nashvilled I see no reason why he wouldn’t pay for a Nashvanille demo and negotiate a large chunk on the pub split (most likely all !!!) and save all this hassle recording your sound.

Now if he digs your music (which he seems too) but is thinking the lyric is the most pitchable aspect this is the most sensible way for him to do it. . I see no reason to polish a rock/pop/ac song recording for the country market if it don’t have at least an element of Nashvegas in it.

The vibe I’m getting is Nashvillian gatekeepers are getting spoilt by radio ready “demos” made by the elite “hitwriters” that are essential drop in the superstar vox and it’s done!!To me that makes a lot of sense .If I was a label suit with street ears I’d respond much more to a done deal master sounding recording then a “now just imagine this” demo.

It sounds like he might be hearing things right but trying to fit you into too tight of a box. In my ears the new country is a mishmash of 80’s LA metal power ballads with fiddles and steel guitar pads with slightly twanged singers with limited range and vocal expression…just my kind of music!!

…on that note…If the pub can get you some cuts and that’s what you want ..give him what he wants. Let him Nashtrash those tunes on his dime (or you can get your own Fl pickers).Pedal steel and fiddle being the lynch pin because face it …..new country is not even close to country .It’s rock super duper lite with sugar on top. Even pop music has more musical teeth .(Thank gawd someone yanked KZLA!!!)… ...Those demo studios out there(one on every corner) pump this stuff out like sweat at golds gym. If you are inclined… Take the money and run.

..I fell into a burnin ring o fire!!!!

BP

Thanks BeePee, you are reading this situation pretty clearly...

Let me expand on the original post:

I have a Publishing contract with the said Pub. He already owns some songs of mine which he's working (so he says)...

The ones he has taken are pop songs, they really coudn't be turned into country. I have some new material which he really likes that he wants to take. These new songs are still mine and I haven't signed with him yet...

My problem is that,

1) He wants me to make the changes although country is not my thing, plus I can't play fiddle and I don't own a steel guitar
2) He won't pay for a demo
3) He wants to come in and "help me with the country feel" (he plays piano)

#3 worries me because I have a feeling that he will ask for "songwriting credits" if the song gets cut and starts to earn income.

I can go with other Publishers or place it myself. I just don't know if I have the time to do all it takes to get the job done...

He's heard 4 songs in the last month that he likes but he wants to Nashvillize them all. I guess you could turn them into country if you really tried but it woudn't even be the same song anymore.

I perform, mix, arrange and produce all these songs, so to me what he's asking is a daunting job. I'm getting tired just thinking about starting all those songs all over again...

I'm really on the fence about this...I'm not sure what I'm gonna do !

[skopje]

I don't know anything about publishing, but maybe you could come at it from a different angle.

When i used to work as an edit assistant the frustrating thing was when you would spend a week doing something, and then director or producer would change their minds. You then have to spend another week making changes. SO FRUSTRATING!!!

Maybe put your pop songs to one side and write some new songs in a country vein specifically for for the nashville market. The publisher obviously thinks you have an ear for melody or he wouldn't have signed you, you are half way there. At least you wouldn't have to redo songs you like, in a style you don't have much time for. At the very least the frustration may ease



stephen

[wallace]

I've been looking at a lot of listings from places like Taxi and other services, as well as listening to stories from my boss ( a successful songwriter). It seems that most of the demand for songs (that other artist will record) are country. I think that your publisher wants to maximise the chances of selling a song, so that might be why he's pushing country to you. Sorry it's causing you distress.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by wallace

I've been looking at a lot of listings from places like Taxi and other services, as well as listening to stories from my boss ( a successful songwriter). It seems that most of the demand for songs (that other artist will record) are country. I think that your publisher wants to maximise the chances of selling a song, so that might be why he's pushing country to you. Sorry it's causing you distress.

This is true...

There is a better opportunity to place songs in the country market for outside writers. I am not discarting this avenue and I'm not that proud, if I can make money I'll do it...this business is tough enough as it is...

My frustration lies in the fact that he's asking me to do something that I can't do well enough to compete at the highest levels. My thoughts are that if he wants it done right, he should send it out to Nashville.

I can write and produce pop/rock/ac songs 'till the cows come home, that's what I do best. It's not laziness or not wanting to expand my skills. I know the market and I feel I would probably do the song more harm than good.

I'm not sure if even great producers with no country skills would attempt a project they're not familiar with...

[Rob G]

1-Never put all of your eggs in one basket.

2-Don't break any eggs, or turn over any baskets that you have.

3-Never, stop being persistent, or get lazy.

Rob G..

[lefthando]

It seems to me that you have nothing to lose by taking a shot at some country stuff. Obviously your guy respects your songwriting chops and if he ends up 'writing' some of it with you he'll probably be more inclined to push those songs.

Sure you split the royalty, but you get the stuff placed with your name on it.

It'll only open more doors and besides, you can always write more songs.

Futhermore, even the best country producers had to start somewhere. Sure it's not your specialty, but you can learn can you not?

[True North]

I primarily a Pop/Rock guy and I am not much of a Country guy. Sounds to me you like you are still emotionally attached to your songs and envisioning yourself as the performer. This is evidenced by giving your Publisher fully completed 'Demos' - you haven't transitioned out of 'I want to be the rockstar' mode and into 'behind the scenes' writer mode.

Virtually any rock/pop song can be turned into a country song. If Johnny Cash can cover Nine Inch Nails I would bet good money your songs can be converted to country without much effort. Problem is because you are still in Rock star mode you can't see beyond your own ambitions and vision of what you think the song should be at this point in time.

Why not try to find and hook up with a good country arranger/producer and work on a couple of songs so you can get the feel for it. Perhaps you can work out an arrangement for a peice of the publishing if the song gets picked up by a Country Artist. My sense is that if you can get past 'Rock Star' mode you could probably figure it out yourself but right now it sounds like your stuck.

I took my kids to go see the disney film Cars a little while ago. The movie ended with a country arrangement of a rock song called 'Life is a highway' which was written by a rock artist named Tom Cochrane. If you can, try to download both versions it might give you a bit of perspective and ideas on how you could convert your songs.

Best of luck to you.

[robmix]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

This is true...

There is a better opportunity to place songs in the country market for outside writers. I am not discarting this avenue and I'm not that proud, if I can make money I'll do it...this business is tough enough as it is...

My frustration lies in the fact that he's asking me to do something that I can't do well enough to compete at the highest levels. My thoughts are that if he wants it done right, he should send it out to Nashville.

I can write and produce pop/rock/ac songs 'till the cows come home, that's what I do best. It's not laziness or not wanting to expand my skills. I know the market and I feel I would probably do the song more harm than good.

I'm not sure if even great producers with no country skills would attempt a project they're not familiar with...

If I were you I'd go down to Nashvegas myself. Find a great studio, hire the best muscians you can afford and cut 5 or 6 songs that this publisher likes and see what he can do with them. If he actually gets them cut, you've found a formula that works. If he doesn't get them cut you'll still have some great demos and you can cut your ties with him.

[BeePee]

I have a Publishing contract with the said Pub. He already owns some songs of mine which he's working (so he says)...

Excuse me if you already know these biz angles but:

Did he pay for them?
Did you sign away all of your publishing rights?
Did you have a reversion clause?

If not these songs maybe gone forever in perpituity.If he owns these songs it’s in his best interest as a publisher to get a good contemporary demo so he can pitch them...it’s not up to you any more. Why should it you don’t own anything. The only thing you have is songwriter right. The right to mechanical and performance royalties.

I would be very suspicious if he is trying to get you to make demos for HIS songs.

The ones he has taken are pop songs, they really couldn’t be turned into country.

Why would he want these if he only pitches to Nashville country?(my assumption later)


I have some new material which he really likes that he wants to take. These new songs are still mine and I haven't signed with him yet.

Good… hopefully you can iron out the important details before (or if) you do..


He wants me to make the changes although country is not my thing, plus I can't play fiddle and I don't own a steel guitar

Again …this is very suspicious and not a good move on his part….if you can’t do it why does he want you to do it…There is a train load of guys that will do it for dirt cheap in Nashshille the problem eventually is still a huge crap shoot. I’ve heard “WAY” too many Nashlite demo’s and without exception they almost all sound the same(except for the horrendous lyrics) and they don’t sound that different. Like I said if he really thinks he can get the “song” cut he might be missing out on you doing an “original” sounding “demo” that isn’t a cookie cut Nashley song with a touch of country.hell Kenny Chesney ripped off Judas Priest “Living after Midnight” melody and had about as rock guitar sound as I heard in country and it was a hit!!.They so much want to rock but I think the tunes ain’t got the juice.Jeffrey Steele is about as rock as they get.(I am ashamed to be from the same state as him..


He won't pay for a demo

If you don’t have an contract I wouldn’t blame him but if he owns the pub he should unless…
you make a pub split deal. ..or backend ..anything that is viably profitable and fair for BOTH parties not just him.

As is there is no risk(e.g. money) involved for him.(unless there was in the contract.

He wants to come in and "help me with the country feel" (he plays piano)

In today’s country Music (hell in yesterdays) a piano is not going to make it feel country

What worries me because I have a feeling that he will ask for "songwriting credits" if the song gets cut and starts to earn income.

Okay that’s a huge red flag if you have any worries. The industry seems to be flooded with more species of sharks than ever before. At this point I would check “deep” into his credentilas.Find out what he’s done. If he’s a legit pub with legit Nashgill connections he will have a track record. I wouldn’t take his word for it …do the research. It’s a big internet but a small town.

I can go with other Publishers or place it myself. I just don't know if I have the time to do all it takes to get the job done


that’s what the pubs get paid for. They have the connections and the business savvy to get the job done(hopefully)

He's heard 4 songs in the last month that he likes but he wants to Nashvillize them all. I guess you could turn them into country if you really tried but it wouldn’t even be the same song anymore.


IMO most good songs can be arranged and produced into most genre.Nashmill is so lyricentic the music is the last thing they think of. That could be good at this point in time as I mentioned before. The gatekeepers are always saying they want something new and fresh as long as it sounds like what’s old and made money. It ‘s a shame it takes someone like Big and Rich to flip them on their ear. They are more like a freak accident .IMO Miranda Lambert is as close as a major label country artist that could bring some change. She’s young writes and has a rock vibe and they let her stay in because her fans like her. I hope she doesn’t cross over to the dark side.

.
I perform, mix, arrange and produce all these songs, so to me what he's asking is a daunting job. I'm getting tired just thinking about starting all those songs all over again...

I'm really on the fence about this...I'm not sure what I'm gonna do !


This whole deal just doesn’t jibe to me.A guy with Nashvile connections should be hooking up with Nashvile style writers to get cut. If he is a pub he should be paying for Nashite recordings (or at least splitting) to get that “country” sound. (they need to put the “O” back in country) unless your lyrics are like Richard Thompson and your music like 1964-1970 Macca.


There is a better opportunity to place songs in the country market for outside writers. I am not discarding this avenue and I'm not that proud, if I can make money I'll do it...this business is tough enough as it is. My frustration lies in the fact that he's asking me to do something that I can't do well enough to compete at the highest levels. My thoughts are that if he wants it done right, he should send it out to Nashville

yeah !!….if you have connections and write COUNTRY songs!! Seriously if it ain’t your thang run …run very far..and fast…

I can write and produce pop/rock/ac songs 'till the cows come home, that's what I do best. It's not laziness or not wanting to expand my skills. I know the market and I feel I would probably do the song more harm than good. I’m not sure if even great producers with no country skills would attempt a project they're not familiar with.

Again just a suggestion…..write what you knowand love or what you want to do. The other markets are just as wide open for cuts if the material is strong and you have a good plan(connections help tremendously!!) .Nashville only looks wide open. It’s about as closed as closed can be for outsiders. There are hundreds of hopefuls songwriters that roll in and out of town each week. The ones that stay have a leg up if they play the game.


As Johnny said ..keep your eyes wide open all the time…..them Nashites be heartbreakers.

Bee”too much time on his hands” Pee

[u b k]

i got nothing to add, i just want to see how many permutations of the word 'nashville' this thread can spawn.

christ, country ballads *are* like 80's hair ballads... i may have trouble sleeping tonight.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by BeePee

Nashshille, Nashlite, Nashley, Nashgill, Nashvillize, Nashmill, Nashvile, Nashite, Nashites,

Bee”too much time on his hands” Pee[/b]

Hey Bee - you seem to have just a tiny, tiny little problem with (one might say a slight bias against) musicians and writers from Nashburg (you forgot that one) don't you.

Geez, lighten up. Someone might think you're a frustrated guitarist from So Cal!

ROTFLMAO

The other bp

[BeePee]

Originally Posted by drBill

Hey Bee - you seem to have just a tiny, tiny little problem with (one might say a slight bias against) musicians and writers from Nashburg (you forgot that one) don't you.

Geez, lighten up. Someone might think you're a frustrated guitarist from So Cal!

ROTFLMAO

The other bp

naaaa.....none of the "musicians" in Nashfield US of A are actually "from" there...it's the official carpetbagger city of the US of A.I'm sure about the time the "City" drops "Music" from thier moniker my spelling might improve..

Thanks for the analyst though Dr Phill uuuh Bill as soon as my Prozac/Oxocodin/glue script ... runs out(where the hell is Rico!!....) then the real frustration will kick in.

Bee" Garth Brooks ate my cat"Pee

[dreamsongs]

Wow BeePee, I don't even know where to start. Anyway, thanks for your post and your thoughts. It all helps because I'm having a hard time with this.

Also, thanks to you all for your input...some really good suggestions.

My first reaction when this began to unfold was to have a "pop" version which was my own, and a "nashville" demo. He said it was OK if I wanted to do that but he didn't want to pay for the demo. Reason being that if he did that with every song he had in his catalog, he would go broke.

At that point I thought, - you love the song in it's pop version, why not pitch it pop - He said - no, it would be easier to cut as a country song - So I said, - ok but it's not exactly what I do - then he said he would help me achieve a more country feel.

He has pop contacts but he has more solid country contacts and he believes in the song. But...it bothers me that he won't pay for a Nashvillized demo and insists that we can do it ourselves.

And as I said, he wants to come to my studio and "work on it". My concern is that if he takes it and I relinquish the Publishing rights and then he gets 50% writer's credit on top, he will get 75% of the songs' total income.

I don't know, maybe I'm paranoid but this particular song means a lot to me and it really could be a charted song. I have no doubts about that. It's probably the best song I ever wrote and I want to do the right thing.

I'm still debating all the options...

[GPl]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

I don't know, maybe I'm paranoid but this particular song means a lot to me and it really could be a charted song. I have no doubts about that. It's probably the best song I ever wrote and I want to do the right thing.

I'm still debating all the options...

There it is...you got 2 other pubs in LA and NYC. Do you what you feel deep down in your soul is the right path for YOU. Good luck and look forward to hearing your song in the top 10

p.s. BeePee's got the "Nashbowl" down pretty good

[BeePee]

He's right..if pubs pro demoed every song their writers write it would be foolish..however " In general" a pub will demo a song they believe is ready as he seems to think this is....so????.


He must
1. have a lot a confidence in you to get twanged
2.is a cheap $%^$#@l
3.wants more of a piece of the action if he is insisting on working on it with you and is a %^$#@

hope it's #1

.Hell it's your song you can pitch it to whomever you want why should he care if he owns the publishing!! less work for him and if it gets cut it's could be much more attractive if it does well because it's proven.
I don't see a lot of downside there .

I tend agree with truenorth on a few aspects.It's one song.If you're a good writer (I'm not doubting that you aren't btw) you will write more.I've gone through the "my baby" obsession..believe me ..it never turns out pretty.

Bend them, shape them,.work them anyway you got to but.... let em go. It’s not good to obsess too much. Get the biz straight ...do the leg work. Then get on with the writing and recording of more songs....

I'm not saying don't TCOB..but it can sidetrack you if you get too caught up. Sensible folks can be reasoned with fairly easy. Get as much info as possible. Make a decision how you want to resolve it and move on.....there's C800G to be bought and houses to be mortgaged!!!

Bee"Passman" Pee

[BeepBeep]

Stick to your gut feelings on this.

If you don't write country then ditch the country publisher. You guys are not a match.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by BeepBeep

Stick to your gut feelings on this.

If you don't write country then ditch the country publisher. You guys are not a match.

It's tough to walk away when somebody with 30 years in the business tells you you've just written a hit song...the only way to make it come true is by doing the right thing. Whatever that is, I'll have to live with it.

I have a few songs making little $$$. Low charted songs in distant lands barely pays the bills. No hits yet...

I have many songs, some better than others. Once in a while, one comes along that's special and everybody you respect in the business agrees. Then you don't know if you should protect it or treat it like any other project.

Some Pubs these days don't even want to give you a reversion clause. So it makes it even harder.

That's my dilemma...

[Sqye]

btw - we love your song, we just need it to have a little more of that
judaeo-christian hip hop speed metal tot-rock kind of vibe.
jeeeez, you'll spend YEARS in THAT treadmill. i don't envy you

otoh, i used to work with a successful manager who's mantra was,
pretty much, it takes WAYYYYYYY less time to try something quickly,
than it does to rationalize all the reasons it won't work.

you've come to a wall - JUMP OVER IT. f*CK IT.

good luck, seriously.