The perfect microphones for an old school country album

[NorthernDigStar]

Hello again. Time for me to absorb some information from you my co-forumists. We've got this guy from Texas/Hewitt coming over for a session, and he insists on having me as his producer. I've been on the phone for hours trying to make him understand I won't be able to complete his project, no matter how experienced I am or how good my reputation is. So the the problem can't be solved that way. The only way I can pull this job off is by getting the correct equipment to record a country album and make it sound like it did back in the days. I'm talking about The Carters family, Jimmie Rodgers, Hank Williams - the list goes on... I have never gone close to any of their microphones, simply because I believe neumann U47 is the only mic worth recording vocals with. So if you've got any information about typical mics they used back then, go ahead telling me what you know.

[Jonk]

I bet a lot of that stuff is RCA ribbons for the vocals. 44's and 77's.

Especially Hank.

Also, you might try and find a Shure Elvis mic to mix in, as that was one of the Sun Studio mics. I know that's more associated with early rock and roll, but it'll get you the early Johnny Cash vocal sound (minus Johnny Cash.)

[T.RayBullard]

Ribbons, Shure Green Bullet, u47

RCA preamps.....

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_class...nny/index.html

http://mixonline.com/recording/proje...oad/index.html

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_earl_scruggs/index.html

http://www.sunstudio.com/index.aspx?bhcp=1

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_georg...ped/index.html

[NorthernDigStar]

Thanks for your help. I have been in contact with the shure Green bullet. And I remember it was very usefull. Not only for harmonica, but also for the kick drum!! I'm not sure if i'm aming at the correct time line, but hopefully the Jonny Cash sound will do for this wierd man

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by NorthernDigStar

Thanks for your help. I have been in contact with the shure Green bullet. And I remember it was very usefull. Not only for harmonica, but also for the kick drum!! I'm not sure if i'm aming at the correct time line, but hopefully the Jonny Cash sound will do for this wierd man

I am a HUGE Classic Country fan(wont listen to anything past 1980, but the old stuff is all I listen to)

for a sort of special twang sound on steels and the like, check out www.placidaudio.com ...I use those sometimes on my pedal/lap steels(I am a player)

[NorthernDigStar]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

I am a HUGE Classic Country fan(wont listen to anything past 1980, but the old stuff is all I listen to)

for a sort of special twang sound on steels and the like, check out www.placidaudio.com ...I use those sometimes on my pedal/lap steels(I am a player)

Well thank you. I've never heard of these microphones before. I got to tell you, you found what I was looking for. They sound fantastic.

[Alex Wyler]

I will recommend this path:

AEA R84 > Neve 1073 (Chandler LTD-1) > UA LA2A (Distressor in opto mode)

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by NorthernDigStar

I've been on the phone for hours trying to make him understand I won't be able to complete his project, no matter how experienced I am or how good my reputation is.

That's a crock of shit.

Recording is recording.

The tools didn't make Hank Williams sound, Hank Williams made Hank Williams sound. That stuff was recorded in a bunch of studios over a bunch of years by who ever was around that day and on the schedule to work the session. There was no "specialty" bullshit back then just well trained engineers who had whatever was available in the studio... they "hit red" and the music either came out of the performer or it didn't.

If the performer can perform worth a shit then they will do the job of making it sound "right"... all you have to do is take the variations in air pressure they produce and store them somewhere. It really ain't rocket surgery... but you should have an open mind and a trained ear or you'll miss when you have a good blend/balance and texture to the music and "over produce" it until it sounds all the other homogenized "pitch corrected" horseshit that pollutes the modern radio airwaves.

Use what you have... let the performer do the work. That's how they did it back then and it's still a valid technique.

Peace.

[PHILANDDON]

From what little I know about how it was done.....talking here about The Original Carter Family, Hank Williams Sr., Jimmie Rodgers, Ernest Tubb, Roy Acuff, etc.

One mic. No headphones. No close micing. The mic was usually a Ribbon. RCA 77 or 44. The preamp was tube. The room was often live.....old church, barn, etc. No punching-in. The performers were loud and knew how to work a mic. The mic was ususally placed about chest or neck high about a foot or two from the singer.

The wierd thing about all that music is it sounds GOOD ON CD!! I don't know why that is. But to my ear a lot less seems to be lost than with some classic analog multitracked recordings. The Beatles, for instance, on CD sound nowhere near as good as the Beatles on the LP's.

[NorthernDigStar]

Originally Posted by PHILANDDON

From what little I know about how it was done.....talking here about The Original Carter Family, Hank Williams Sr., Jimmie Rodgers, Ernest Tubb, Roy Acuff, etc.

One mic. No headphones. No close micing. The mic was usually a Ribbon. RCA 77 or 44. The preamp was tube. The room was often live.....old church, barn, etc. No punching-in. The performers were loud and knew how to work a mic. The mic was ususally placed about chest or neck high about a foot or two from the singer.

The wierd thing about all that music is it sounds GOOD ON CD!! I don't know why that is. But to my ear a lot less seems to be lost than with some classic analog multitracked recordings. The Beatles, for instance, on CD sound nowhere near as good as the Beatles on the LP's.

I agree on everything you've said here. The more I think about it the less confident I get. How will i be able to pull this off when I don't even got the suited location to record his pieces. My hyper modern studio ain't gonna do. The microphones RayBullard recommended are just lovely for the purpose, but I doubt I can find a suiting location. Anybody know a farmer?? I need a barn. I can only see problems gathering up here... Bringing my neve some place else will mean my insurance won't cover anything. I don't like to gamble when it comes to sound quality nor using gears i'm not familiar with. Believe me, I know when things are hard to pull off. I have been to countless numbers of lectures in positive thinking, and none of them would help me in this case. I can't just let something come out of my studio that I have no control over. It could do serious damage to my reputation, and i'm sure many of you people out there who produce professional records will agree with me. I will take next weekend off to try my neve amp together with those microphones (if they arrive in time). If the results comes out on top then i'll go with it. But i've got a feeling it's not going to work.

[NorthernDigStar]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

That's a crock of shit.

Recording is recording.

The tools didn't make Hank Williams sound, Hank Williams made Hank Williams sound. That stuff was recorded in a bunch of studios over a bunch of years by who ever was around that day and on the schedule to work the session. There was no "specialty" bullshit back then just well trained engineers who had whatever was available in the studio... they "hit red" and the music either came out of the performer or it didn't.

If the performer can perform worth a shit then they will do the job of making it sound "right"... all you have to do is take the variations in air pressure they produce and store them somewhere. It really ain't rocket surgery... but you should have an open mind and a trained ear or you'll miss when you have a good blend/balance and texture to the music and "over produce" it until it sounds all the other homogenized "pitch corrected" horseshit that pollutes the modern radio airwaves.

Use what you have... let the performer do the work. That's how they did it back then and it's still a valid technique.

Peace.

Dear Fletcher, please don't find my post offensive but I need to tell you something. Back in the days there weren't as many producers around as it is today. And the word producer actually meant something more than having a computer in your basement. The standard used to be tube amps. Everything wore the quality mark that you won't even come close to in todays market. We agree on one thing though - the people making the music. They could just walk into a studio and just get it right. No 2nd chance. You just stepped up to your microphone and did your job, and if it wasn't good enough no one would end up buying it. Though the purpose back in those days was more often just having a record made for yourself and your family. I admire the way they pulled these jobs off, since the people who usually came into the studio hardly knew what a microphone looked like. And let me tell you something about how I work. I never let the artist deside whether the finished product is allowed to be released or not. It's all written down in the deal, I take no charge before the product is done and ready for being released. If something isn't good enough to be released I simply just don't continue my work. In most cases I know who i'm taking on and i'm positive i've got the correct gears to finish it. So this case is quite special.

Back in the 70's when we first started out me and Jack had this 2chl reel to reel tape to record our first band with. I still remember coming back in the afternoon after sitting awake for 2 days in a row recording just to find all the tapes gone. Jack obviously wasn't happy about the results and had desided that we weren't gonna release the tapes. And eventhough i'd like to hear the results today i'm still happy Jack threw those tapes away, because it taught me to not be satisfied with less. And that mentality I still carry with me today, and just look where it got me.

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally Posted by NorthernDigStar

Hello again. Time for me to absorb some information from you my co-forumists. We've got this guy from Texas/Hewitt coming over for a session, and he insists on having me as his producer. I've been on the phone for hours trying to make him understand I won't be able to complete his project, no matter how experienced I am or how good my reputation is. So the the problem can't be solved that way. The only way I can pull this job off is by getting the correct equipment to record a country album and make it sound like it did back in the days. I'm talking about The Carters family, Jimmie Rodgers, Hank Williams - the list goes on... I have never gone close to any of their microphones, simply because I believe neumann U47 is the only mic worth recording vocals with. So if you've got any information about typical mics they used back then, go ahead telling me what you know.

No condenser mics. Use a ribbon or a decent dynamic. A lot of the Hank Williams, Carter family, and Jimmie Rogers stuff was recorded in somebody's living room, not a fancy recording studio. The quality came from the performers, not the equipment. No phones, one mic, and make it enjoyable. Record, listen back, adjust mic (or musicians) as necessary, record again, repeat till it's all balanced.

Either an RCA 77DX (higher quality) or an EV 664 (more typical) will do a decent job. Recording to tape at 3-3/4ips or 7-1/2ips would be nice, but not necessary. Isotope has a free plug-in that will give you that old 78 sound.

[NorthernDigStar]

I was just talking on the phone with Jack. He's got a hold of a RCA 77A, which is suppose to be one of the most rare items in that serie. So we're skipping the studio then and we're gonna try to use some kind of barn or just a cottage. Together with that Copperphone mic i'm pretty sure we can handle this task. If I get permission from the author I might post some results to keep you updated on the project.

[NorthernDigStar]

Ok, so the project is now closed. We had a fall out with the artist, and now we're off that case. I don't have any results for you guys to listen to, and I don't intend to show you what we did achive. I'm writing this for those of you who wanted to follow this project and perhaps pick up some tips&tricks. I'm honestly very sorry that it had to turn out this way, but when you're working with people who are not 100% professionals it usually ends up like this. First thing we couldn't agree on what we should focus on. I tried to convince him that we might need to record this album more than ten times just to find the proper mic position. He wanted to reduce everything to a one take with a lot of nerve... Which for me was unacceptable. Anyway, after 3 weeks of recording, mixing and fights, Jack steps in and hands me a flight ticket to florida. He said I need to take a break and come back with fresh ears. And how can I refuse such an offer. But I will admit, it did make all the difference. Sitting in that room for 3 weeks actually kill your creative mind (not to mention the ears). So I came back, heard what we had achived, and it wasn't much more to do than to tell the guy we're not going to complete it. We always prepare a contract where the artist commit to leaving all the important calls up to us, and luckly this was no exception. Due to this he'll get to compensate us for our time, excluding studio time, and the project is off. This was, as I expected, a very big mistake. Taking on a project like this was harder than I expected. I'm still happy that I got the chance to work on an album like this, but I doubt I will ever take it on again...

[T.RayBullard]

what is your standard material?

Originally Posted by NorthernDigStar

Ok, so the project is now closed. We had a fall out with the artist, and now we're off that case. I don't have any results for you guys to listen to, and I don't intend to show you what we did achive. I'm writing this for those of you who wanted to follow this project and perhaps pick up some tips&tricks. I'm honestly very sorry that it had to turn out this way, but when you're working with people who are not 100% professionals it usually ends up like this. First thing we couldn't agree on what we should focus on. I tried to convince him that we might need to record this album more than ten times just to find the proper mic position. He wanted to reduce everything to a one take with a lot of nerve... Which for me was unacceptable. Anyway, after 3 weeks of recording, mixing and fights, Jack steps in and hands me a flight ticket to florida. He said I need to take a break and come back with fresh ears. And how can I refuse such an offer. But I will admit, it did make all the difference. Sitting in that room for 3 weeks actually kill your creative mind (not to mention the ears). So I came back, heard what we had achived, and it wasn't much more to do than to tell the guy we're not going to complete it. We always prepare a contract where the artist commit to leaving all the important calls up to us, and luckly this was no exception. Due to this he'll get to compensate us for our time, excluding studio time, and the project is off. This was, as I expected, a very big mistake. Taking on a project like this was harder than I expected. I'm still happy that I got the chance to work on an album like this, but I doubt I will ever take it on again...

[treymonfauntre]

was this a major label artist?

[NorthernDigStar]

Hello treymonfauntre, yes this was an established artist. He might not be known to the masses, but he's got a good reputation. As usual I choose to keep a low profile about my customers, and my own persona because of obvious reasons.

Hey RayBullard dude. My standard material? I'm very much into pop, rock, modern RnB. I've been around for some time so I can do pretty much all radio music, with excellent results. People I work with usually aim for the top of Billboard charts.

And hey, thanks for that chopper phone tips. It was very useful on guitar and lapsteel, like you said. Here it is in my demo studio.

[T.RayBullard]

great, glad you enjoyed it! I love the copperphones myself!

Originally Posted by NorthernDigStar

Hello treymonfauntre, yes this was an established artist. He might not be known to the masses, but he's got a good reputation. As usual I choose to keep a low profile about my customers, and my own persona because of obvious reasons.

Hey RayBullard dude. My standard material? I'm very much into pop, rock, modern RnB. I've been around for some time so I can do pretty much all radio music, with excellent results. People I work with usually aim for the top of Billboard charts.

And hey, thanks for that chopper phone tips. It was very useful on guitar and lapsteel, like you said. Here it is in my demo studio.

[newnes]

Let me get this straight. You made the guy sign a contract which gave you the right to kill the project at anytime. You then worked for three paid weeks, accepted a free vacation and promptly killed the project on your return.

Originally Posted by NorthernDigStar

It could do serious damage to my reputation,

See above.


Maybe I'm missing something or maybe there's a bunch of personal BS that you're not telling us but if I were this artist I'd be pissed, contract or no.

[mrface2112]

this sounds a lot to me like the classic "can't you fix it in the mix" versus "can't you just play the friggin part right?" battles.

in the days of Hank, et al, they just plain played it right, or they did it again (and again) until they did. but usually there wasn't a whole lot of "doing it again", b/c they could do it right the first time through.

sorry to hear about this, but sometimes the negatives are positive learning experiences.


cheers,
wade

[NorthernDigStar]

Originally Posted by newnes

Let me get this straight. You made the guy sign a contract which gave you the right to kill the project at anytime. You then worked for three paid weeks, accepted a free vacation and promptly killed the project on your return.



See above.


Maybe I'm missing something or maybe there's a bunch of personal BS that you're not telling us but if I were this artist I'd be pissed, contract or no.

Woohoo just hang on now you little punk. Who do you think you are coming in here telling me how to deal with my customers and reputation. These contracts are compulsary insurance. This is the way every contract is done up here on the top of the league, and it doesn't matter what you think is right or not. What comes out of this studio is my responsibility, and I don't intend to ruin it. The project turned out to be shit and I don't want the word to spread on the street that I was the one who finished that job. You've got one life in this business, and I wouldn't want my phone to stop ringing just because this little brat can't level with my terms of quality. And yes, of course he was furious. But at the end of the day it was a mutual agreement to shut it down. I just told him - sorry dude this ain't gonna work. And then I pressed delete. But as I wrote - the deal didn't include studio time, which means he's only paying us about 300 bucks, which is a fair compensation for my time.

[NorthernDigStar]

Originally Posted by mrface2112

this sounds a lot to me like the classic "can't you fix it in the mix" versus "can't you just play the friggin part right?" battles.

in the days of Hank, et al, they just plain played it right, or they did it again (and again) until they did. but usually there wasn't a whole lot of "doing it again", b/c they could do it right the first time through.

sorry to hear about this, but sometimes the negatives are positive learning experiences.


cheers,
wade

You got it all right. The attentive reader would have noticed the discussion we had in this thread about musicians then and now. He thought he had the capability to just step into the room and finish the job. This together with my high standards of quality led to this job being called off. We had been working for two full days when he all of a sudden called me a dick for wanting to adjust the microphone. As a professional i'm used to handle that kind of behavior from spolied millionare one-hit-wonder kids. But let me tell ya, I almost imploded when the sucker kicked the mic off the stand and destroyed 6 hours of patient positioning work! I'm just glad this is over and now I intend to lean back in my lounge suite and smoke a cuban cigar. Bigger tasks are waiting, and i'm just waiting for the phone to ring

[newnes]

Originally Posted by NorthernDigStar

You got it all right. The attentive reader would have noticed the discussion we had in this thread about musicians then and now. He thought he had the capability to just step into the room and finish the job. This together with my high standards of quality led to this job being called off. We had been working for two full days when he all of a sudden called me a dick for wanting to adjust the microphone. As a professional i'm used to handle that kind of behaviour from spolied millionare one-hit-wonder kids. But let me tell ya, I almost imploded when the sucker kicked the mic off the stand and destroyed 6 hours of patient positioning work! I'm just glad this is over and now I intend to lean back in my lounge suite and smoke a cuban cigar. Bigger tasks are waiting, and i'm just waiting for the phone to ring

It took you 6 hours to position a mic?!?!! Look, I don't like musicians who think they're the shit and aren't willing to learn and work hard to get quality but perhaps he was sick of spending a half a day finding tones and just wanted to sing his f'ing song. I'd definitely be pissed about the mic though!!

Originally Posted by NorthernDigStar

Woohoo just hang on now you little punk. Who do you think you are coming in here telling me how to deal with my customers and reputation. These contracts are compulsary insurance. This is the way every contract is done up here on the top of the league, and it doesn't matter what you think is right or not. What comes out of this studio is my responsibility, and I don't intend to ruin it. The project turned out to be shit and I don't want the word to spread on the street that I was the one who finished that job. You've got one life in this business, and I wouldn't want my phone to stop ringing just because this little brat can't level with my terms of quality. And yes, of course he was furious. But at the end of the day it was a mutual agreement to shut it down. I just told him - sorry dude this ain't gonna work. And then I pressed delete. But as I wrote - the deal didn't include studio time, which means he's only paying us about 300 bucks, which is a fair compensation for my time.

Sure it's your thread, but this is a public forum and if you choose to post details of your actions and policies, I can criticize them if I want to. If producers at "the top of the league" act like know-it-all divas it's no wonder more musicians want to record themselves in their bedroom.

Craig.

[NorthernDigStar]

Craig man, i'm not saying you shouldn't speak your mind out, but please don't make me look like a shithead. During a recording session I want to put in as much effort and heart as I possibly can. I always consider each take the last one in my life, and I want to make it flawless. If you think i'm fixing the microphone that last inch just to satisfy my ego then you're all wrong. The customer got to feel 100% happy when having the finished product in his hands. And the only away to get there is by doing it over and over again. I don't want to brag, but I can tell you that a very very big american artist once wrote me a personal letter just to thank me for putting up with him and for not giving up on my principles. I think you've got a lot to learn Craig. Just a word of advice from me.