Low C tuning...

[sweet_vendetta]

how much of a difference, sonically, would tuning to low C make?
would there be radical changes to be made in
-the overall spectrum?
-tuning the drums?
-eq at the amps, and in mixing?

thanx

[Oroz]

I don't think so, I've recorded a fair amount of bands tunned in B (7 strings guitars), C, D, etc. and I wouldn't say that there is a "radical" change. If what you're recording it's metal maybe you'll have to work a little more with the relationship between bass and guitars because almost always the guitars are so loud (and low tunned jeje) that there's not much space left for bass. But as with everything, it dependes on the material, style of music, taste, etc.

I myself was part of a metal band with 7 strings guitars and all that.

[Recycled_Brains]

i've never noticed low tunings having any effect on the drums at all. all 3 of the bands i play in use tunings in a range from drop-C to drop-A and a few weird ones in between.

i will agree with Oroz about the bass/guitar relationship. with such low tunings you're getting closer to the tambre of the bass in some ways.

the biggest problem i have with low tunings is intonation.

-R.

[sweet_vendetta]

thanx for yer replys..
how about eqing on the guitars?
add some high frequencies or emphasize the bass even more?
i'm shooting for a qotsa type of sound, not quite the metal chugchug. also planning to change to low C on acoustic project, i just like the vibe much more..what do you think?

[tINY]

If you are talking about tuning a guitar from E all the way down to C, then you could get a very different sound from your amp.

Especially if it's an open back Fender with tubes.




-tINY

[dbbubba]

It's fun, but GOD is that stuff hard to keep in tune!

I used to record bands that tuned WAY down there and they also insisted on using light gauge strings. They were playing bows (and arrows) and not guitars!

I once talked one band into keeping the bass tuned "normal."

One of the things that I liked about the result was the blurring effect that the "sloppiness" created. I couldn't tell what they were playing, but it sounded kinda' cool!

Myself, I go the other way string guage wise.
I put clothesline wires on my Les Paul when I even de-tune to D.
I use 11s to a 52 as it is, so when dropping my tuning I use up to a 13 and biger on the bottom. I have had tuning issues where I need to add KYBD parts and the GTR sounded cool alone, but "tuney" with say a Hammond.

Tuning low and using a bit of VSO on the doubling sounds pretty evil on GTRs!

Danny Brown

[sweet_vendetta]

it's an ampeg vt120 with a 4X12 marshall cab..

i'm used to heavy gauge strings so i'll keep it that way, maybe even more so..

sorry dbbubba, what's KYBD and VSO?

[dbbubba]

That's be KeYBoarDs (as in Hammond B3)

I recorded a production music cut that was fashioned after a ZZ Top style, slow, grinding I/IV/V blues in E (tuned down to D) and it sounded great until I had a B3 player OD (that's be overdub and not overdose) some grinding organ. Texas blues deluxe m'boy.
I had to re-cut the GTR (that's be GeeTar) with heavier guage strings to get good tuning. I think that I used something like: 013 / 017 / 019 / DY36 / DY44 / DY56

Since Les Pauls are a shorter scale length than say Strat or Tele I kinda' prefer slighter heavier gauge strings. The above referenced set is the same as the GHS Boomers DYM set except with an un-wound 019 "G string" in place of the wound DY26 that comes in the set. I bet if I look I have a lot of DY26 strings in my string box!

Variable
Speed
Oscilator

That was what you used to vary the speed of analog tape machines.

If you slightly speed up (or slow down) the tape speed when you double track a part you get an awesome grind sound. I heard of doing it for years before my friend who was Pantera's first vocalist mentioned that they did it alot. I tyried it and the light buld went off over my head! AHah! I always thought it was an amp thing I heard. Nope.

You can approximate the effect by applying a tiny bit of detune in a DAW.
Tape speed varies around a bit so it does sound a bit better on an analog deck.

It sounds like beat frequency stuff going on along with cancelations and re-inforcements in certian freqs.

It makes metal stuff sound TUFF!

Danny Brown

[PhilE]

Dropped gtrs can sound really meaty- as long as the offending instrument has a set up specifically for it- otherwise forget fretting anything
Bass- to me it's a no no... get a 5 string if you MUST go down there but for me things sound best on 4 strings in E everytime.

[shredjsx]

One of the biggest issues Ive had with down tuning, or using my 7 string, is in the mix. I use a separate EQ and have to boost the mids on my guitars when doing so. Otherwise I ge ALOT of clipping and the bass gets drowned out.

[DontLetMeDrown]

I remember VSO (virtual speed oscillation?) from using RADAR. Haven't found a practical way of doing this in most modern DAWs. Anyone know how to do it in Sonar or Audition?

[godcity]

i just got done mixing my band's new album and there were several tunings ranging from D to A. plus almost every song was in a different key (the songs mostly weren't in the key of the open strings). i found that each song needed a slightly different mix to find space for each instrument due to the tuning.
i don't think i would change anything about the tracking in the future, but things do seem to change a little bit in the mix.

[mtstudios@charter]

Of course it changes things. Even different guitar chords or bass notes. Have you ever heard the dissonance between a floor tom and a held bass note? When you are mixing frequencies (notes) everything in relation to each other has relevance.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[sweet_vendetta]

anyone else thinks bass is a nono? i know qotsa does it both live and in the studio..
the breakdown in no one knows? great bass sound.. C---c---C---c---C---c---C---c

[mitchell]

I spent a year playing in a metal project where we tuned to C (just like standard tuning, but everything two whole steps down). I constantly fought with tuning and intonation issues... I had my Schecter A-1 set up for it (custom nut); my strings were .13 on top and .60 on the bottom. My guitar tech told me that anything thicker on the bottom wasn't going to help any more (btw, it was a 25 1/2 inch scale too).

I have no idea how guys play 7 strings with a .52 tuned to B. If you hit it hard, it bends up a 1/2 step. Yuck!

I never got around to it, but I think the only way to go is to get an extended scale guitar. Some are 26 1/4", but that probably isn't enough. The best thing would probably be a 28" scale... Ibanez makes one, and Gibson makes a Les Paul this way, which is probably awesome. The other nice thing about extended guitars is that they have roughly the same string thickness and tension as a regular scale (playing solos on my Schecter with monster strings was pretty crazy!).

mitchell

[Mark Warren]

Yip, definitely need an extended scale guitar setup for that, otherwise it's messy tuning and intonation city.

I can attest to that as we just had a project in whereby the main guitar player was using a custom drop C tuning with some other strings de-tuned as well, and never mind that the first guitar track was out of tune, by the time you tried to double track and triple track it was a sonic mess. And you can bet that not only the guitar tracks were conflicting with each other, but with the bass and perhaps even the drums as well, with those notes drifting in and out of tune like that.

The guitar player had his guitar setup especially and professionally for this C tuning before coming into the studio, but it made not much of a difference, a regular scale guitar (especially a Les Paul) is not designed to be fretted in tune all over the neck in some dropped/open C tuning. Even if he tuned up before every take and tried to strum softly (good luck on this heavy song) it still didn't make a difference.

The producer/engineer on the project solved the problem by figuring out what chords the guitar player was playing and then tuned the guitar while fretting those chords, somewhat by ear and somewhat with the tuner. Once this was done it helped quite a bit.

It also made the guitar not be in tune with any open chords/strings however, but as long as the guitar player stuck to his selected chords he was okay, and the track came out really great.

[Justynfromnz]

SLIPPERMAN!
CALLING SLIP....

[dbbubba]

I dunno.... I always thought that the out-of-tuneiness was part of the deal!

I have even "liked" the sound of the low strings sounding up a 1/2 step when struck in certian cases!

The wrongness of the whole sound can make a pretty cool vibe!

Also, with a DAW you can select a track and apply a small amout of de-tuneing and get a fairly close approximation of VSO on tape.

Danny Brown