Advice on Studio Internship

[Pistol Pete]

Hi All,

Just had some quick questions on studio engineering internships. Are they worth the experience? What do you learn there after the 2 months of coffee duty? Should I choose one that uses analog boards, recorders (SSL Neve Studer)? I've seen some that don't.

About me, I am currently enrolled at Berklee's MP&E program but I feel I could get so much more out of working in a real studio. Is this a better alternative? To boot, I would be saving a ton of money and as far as a degree goes, I already have an undergrad degree from UCLA.

I've been homebrew recording/engineering for around 5 years now and was interested in getting better at it and possibly doing it for a living. I would definitely prefer to have my own studio at some point versus being an engineer at a major studio so I'm mostly looking to improve my skills and get a better picture of the industry before I do something I may regret ;-)


Hope all this makes sense,

BTW anyone else having trouble saving avatars?!

-Pistol

[axeman]

I don´t know anything about if a school is better or not, but I can tell you the most important thing that I´ve learned as an intern: Listening! My ears have developed a lot since I got the gig. I can hear a lot more subtle differences in mixes, EQs, compressors. I mean, if anyone had told me a couple of years ago that there´d be a difference in sound using different master clocks (and some people did), I´d tell them something like "Yeah, right... *something, something* audiophiles". Now I know better :)

[KrisNY]

I had an internship this summer, and I can tell you that without a doubt, the most important aspect is who you're working with. I never had coffee duty, never had to clean a bathroom - got to hands-on engineer sessions! Meet with the engineers, express your concerns, and get on the same page. An awesome console is a sweet bonus, but it's really important that you're happy at a place that you're going to give your time to.

[Fletcher]

Interns leave our shop one of two ways... either knowing a whole hell of a lot about recording, electronic and acoustic theory, a firm understanding of gain staging and signal flow as well as "vibe enhancement/protection" or with a boot in their ass and the invitation to go kill themselves.

Making coffee, cleaning toilets, fetching whatever is all part of the training process, part of the discipline. These are necessary tasks that must be completed to allow our studio to run/flow properly. However, these are not the only tasks in which an intern participates. We trade them a minimum wage job doing minimum wage activities for a "masters" level education... however the student must be sharp enough to pick up on what is taught.

Around our shop there are no "C+"s. There is an "A" or an "F". We are "pass/fail". "Pass being a steady learning curve getting to the point where the discipline has been learned, "fail" being a waste of our [and the victim's] fvcking time.

Does this help at all?

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Does this help at all?

For sure! Thanks guys for all the input so far. Basically I'm trying to determine whether I should continue with school or get and internship. And I suppose I'm really the only person who can determine that. I've heard MP&E degrees seem to just land you an intership anyway, only with greater ease. Anyone know about this?

I just have a feeling I could learn more from working professionals at a business even if all I get to do is watch (and ask annoying questions here and there) versus more of a theory based learning system at a school. Don't get me wrong, Berklee has a great program, but it is a kind of isolated laboratory as all schools are.

So to get a better idea of the scope of internships, how many hours are they per week, roughly? And would I learn things like dealing with/using real world acoustics, applying miking techniques, mixing techiques, etc? Looks like you would from Fletcher's setup. I have no problem with toilet duties as long as I know there' s a light at the end of the tunnel.

Berklee will teach you all this, but It's gonna take another 5 semesters and $50,000 dollars of my own money that I could spend on Trakkers, 8900s, 1073s and e47s. Just looking for an alternative.

Oh yeah, Fletcher, are you still ever at Mercenary? I'm going to stop by since I'm in Boston now.

-Pistol

[danasti]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

Hi All,

Just had some quick questions on studio engineering internships. Are they worth the experience? What do you learn there after the 2 months of coffee duty? Should I choose one that uses analog boards, recorders (SSL Neve Studer)? I've seen some that don't.

Yes, you should choose, if you can choose, a studio with a console. If you want to mix you have to learn how it works. No matter what happens we will always be going out of the box for things. And all decent software mixers emulate great hardware routing and signal assignments.

It's crucial to have that "blueprint" embedded in your mind. The bigger the console you can completely navigate with confidence -- the better you are with all consoles (be it digital / analog or ITB).

My advice is to be early to work every single day.

Never make anyone tell you something twice and take advantage of any time in there that they offer (be creative and use any time you are allowed).

Never, ever ask to take home or borrow gear.

Don't ask questions about how things work when clients are there and paying for time.

Think of it as a team - any sport you want - you are the rookie - the engineers are the veterans.

There is always something to do in a studio. Sometimes they won't have time to tell you what to do.

BE one of those people who can figure out how to keep yourself busy with meaningful work.

Kick ass and take pride in your work - see the value of cleaning and keeping a great looking environment. You will be rewarded for this.

[KrisNY]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

Basically I'm trying to determine whether I should continue with school or get and internship.

Are you in a production/engineering program at your school?

I'm a current student in a production program, and I've done an internship. If I had to choose? It's a tough one, but I personally went with school. Both are an amazing education, but I think the primary difference is that school gives you 4 years to f*ck up, whereas being in session definitely does not. Another thing to consider is the fun factor, essentially. College is socially tons of fun - there's nothing else like it. Being in the studio is jumping into the real world. For me, being able to combine the two (a production program at school) was a perfect choice. I'm learning, I can make mistakes early on without it affecting my job or my client or my boss, and I'm having a blast.

Hope that sheds a tiny bit of light and that paragraph wasn't totally self-centered!

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

Oh yeah, Fletcher, are you still ever at Mercenary?

I'm in and out... I have an office at M-A and my studio is in the M-A building so sometimes even when I'm here, I'm not here. At the moment I'm here, tomorrow I'll be working from home but that's just 6 miles down the road and I might be here tomorrow night depending on whether or not I have to a vocal comp or not.

Feel free to shoot an email if you'd like me to be here should you decide to drop down. I'm damn near always here for Friday cocktail hour [4:30 till we leave] but don't generally like to talk "shop" then [unless I'm setting up a session for later that night/that weekend which means I'm still in "audio mode"].

How's that for nebulous?

[tubejay]

I learned how to be an intern at Full Sail, and how to be an engineer from my internship. It really could not have worked better for me. Getting coffee, cleaning toilets, painting, and whatever other task thrown at you is a small price to pay for a lifetime of knowledge. If you can get in the door at a good studio, and work your way into the studio, you will learn a profound amount.

So if you can get in at a good place for an internship, go, be humble, pay your dues, and have fun.

[JB3]

Pistol Pete...

I've a little different viewpoint in that I believe BOTH the formal education AND the work environment are extremely important if you can (and you appear to be able to) do BOTH.

Your formal education at a renown school such as Berklee is invaluable, if nothing other than for networking and resume qualities. That said, there is no replacement for a rewarding internship.

Try to find a way to continue and finish your Berklee program and find an internship or studio that will allow you the flexibility to work around your classes...

(Same advice my sons are following, Scott at MTV 10 weeks this summer, back at SDSU in four days, Jason recording here in OC, back at UCSB next month. I think they would more than agree that their formal education may give them keys with which to use the priceless information they've gained as interns.)

...JB (UCLA '71, cum laude)

Free advice and worth every penny...(most recently Joe Escalante...Barely Legal Radio)

[XSergeantD]

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=74012

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=61867

[Jules]

Check out the similar threads menu below.. plenty of other threads to check out..

Some kids going into this world dig their heels in like a donkey intending on going nowhere when the words 'cleaning duties' are mentioned....

One persons "reasonable dues paying" is another persons "total humiliation" no prizes for guessing which of the two attitudes is regarded in high esteem by the majority of people that hire for intern positions..

People forget that intern means - "person we are going to invest a lot of time in training"

[Dave Martin]

If you choose to do the intern thing, be aware that you can screw it up for more people than just yourself; I fired an intern at the beginning of the summer (his own inability to show up on time), and I'm pretty soured on the whole program at that school - even though I've had good interns in the past from them (most of whom are currently making a living as engineers and producers), I'm not even enthused enough to call the school and let 'em know I have room for someone.

[Pistol Pete]

Hi Dave thanks for the info. And I know what you mean about not screwing it up for others as well. I consider myself very responsible had many jobs (never fired...yet). I did work at HP for 4 years writing code for a QA department... but this will be a completely different ball game.

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

I'm pretty soured on the whole program at that school - even though I've had good interns in the past from them (most of whom are currently making a living as engineers and producers), I'm not even enthused enough to call the school and let 'em know I have room for someone.

What about Berklee soured you, if I might ask? Just some bad employees or something else?

-Pistol

[Jules]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

What about Berklee soured you, if I might ask? Just some bad employees or something else?-Pistol

Pete, RE READ Dave's whole post to understand it..

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by Jules

Some kids going into this world dig their heels in like a donkey intending on going nowhere when the words 'cleaning duties' are mentioned....

One persons "reasonable dues paying" is another persons "total humiliation" no prizes for guessing which of the two attitudes is regarded in high esteem by the majority of people that hire for intern positions..

Hi Jules, yep I fully expect to "pay my dues" and don't mind so long as I can find a place I trust, ie a place where I can see a future beyond cleaning and coffee. So long as I prove myself in areas critical areas, most places should give me real chance, correct?

I read Nigel Godrich was a "coffee boy with a pager" at his first studio in the 90's (Audio One Studios?). So in theory I know how this system works... or do I, ?!

[Jules]

Flood - got his name because he 'flooded' the session with tea / coffee when he was an intern

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by Jules

Pete, RE READ Dave's whole post to understand it..

Jules, I did read it the first time, just making sure if there was something inherent in the program itself that he didn't like.

I don't know how far one can blame a program on another's ability to show up on time? Plus, he did say he had good interns from Berklee in the past. And at Berklee, you loose studio privledges (for 2 weeks I think) if you're late one minute for checkout so they don't have much tolerance for lack of punctuality in the studio environment.

I mean no disrespect at all. Am I still missing the point?

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by KrisNY

Are you in a production/engineering program at your school?

Hey Kris, yep I'm a student in MP&E right now. I do like the program and the school. I do feel it's going a little slow though, and it's not cheap at all. The ole' time is money.

Yeah, college is fun. I already have an undergrad degree from UCLA and boy did I ever blow the "fun" wad in Westwood. It's time to get a little serious, maybe I'm too serious.

What do you think of the program?


-Pistol

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

What about Berklee soured you, if I might ask? Just some bad employees or something else?

That intern wasn't from Berklee, he was one of the local schools (I'm in Nashville), from whom I've taken on interns for a few years. The point of my post was that what you do (should you decide to intern somewhere), will reflect on Berkley as well as you.

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

That intern wasn't from Berklee, he was one of the local schools (I'm in Nashville), from whom I've taken on interns for a few years. The point of my post was that what you do (should you decide to intern somewhere), will reflect on Berkley as well as you.

Dave, I hear what you're saying now. I was on a different wavlength. Thanks for the advice, I'll remember it always. Nice studio BTW... but you knew that. ;-)

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

I do feel it's going a little slow

Why do you think they call this "Slow Business"? You have some serious teachers at Berklee, and you're going to get out of it what you put into it so I'd suggest that you put yourself into it 1000%.

There are only a couple of studios in the Boston area that are worth a rats ass for an internship [and no, I'm not saying which ones]. If you want to learn more take what they're teaching you in school and try to apply it in a "real world" scenario. Book some time in an "out of school" studio and see what you can get out of the academic environment.

I never went to Berklee but there are people at M-A who did. From what I understand the sessions are like in 4 or 8 hour blocks or something non sensical like that. Book some full 15+ hour days on your own and make a single for some band that interests you. I don't know what our schedule is down at the Methods and Applications Laboratory but we've been known to let someone sit in on a session from time to time and I believe we are about to be in the audition process for a new "intern"... so that might be a supplemental learning possibility [I dunno... just crap falling off the top of my head].

It's great you got a degree from UCLA but seriously, if you're in a hurry because you feel you shot a bunch of time in the head by getting the other degree... I would highly recommend you not get into a hurry to "catch up". When you're in a hurry is when you make the greatest amount of mistakes.

Best of luck with all you do.

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Why do you think they call this "Slow Business"? You have some serious teachers at Berklee, and you're going to get out of it what you put into it so I'd suggest that you put yourself into it 1000%.

There are only a couple of studios in the Boston area that are worth a rats ass for an internship [and no, I'm not saying which ones]. If you want to learn more take what they're teaching you in school and try to apply it in a "real world" scenario. Book some time in an "out of school" studio and see what you can get out of the academic environment.

I never went to Berklee but there are people at M-A who did. From what I understand the sessions are like in 4 or 8 hour blocks or something non sensical like that. Book some full 15+ hour days on your own and make a single for some band that interests you. I don't know what our schedule is down at the Methods and Applications Laboratory but we've been known to let someone sit in on a session from time to time and I believe we are about to be in the audition process for a new "intern"... so that might be a supplemental learning possibility [I dunno... just crap falling off the top of my head].

It's great you got a degree from UCLA but seriously, if you're in a hurry because you feel you shot a bunch of time in the head by getting the other degree... I would highly recommend you not get into a hurry to "catch up". When you're in a hurry is when you make the greatest amount of mistakes.

Best of luck with all you do.

Hi Fletcher, as always great advice. At Berklee we're not allowed to use the "big" studios with tracking rooms untill we get higher up in the ranks (semesters) and it has to be for a class. It makes sense otherwise there would be week-long camp outs to book <b>"A"</b> and I would be one of 'em in the queue. As far as 1000% dedication, other than soccer, this school takes that remaining 99.9% of my time, made the Dean's list every semester. Not sure how easy/hard that is tho. Yes Berklee has a great staff, (although I had to explain to a professor why they fire guns in rooms for convolution reverbs, she still didn't believe me). I'm just exploring other options, possibly better options.

Booking a long session in a recording studio is a GREAT idea and I never thought of that. And I think it would be best to hire an engineer for pointers during the session, right? I have recorded bands but fear (read hear!) some of my techniques may be fundamentally flawed, hence the engineer. Especially in the room acoustics/micing drums depts. Yes, Berklee has 4 hour sessions and I don't think you can book back to back.

I would love to sit in on a session at M-A to see what it's like and would promise to be the most un-noticable wall flower imaginable. I could also send you my resume for internship consideration. How many hours a week are internships, can I do both school and intern?

Nah, the only thing I regret about my UCLA experience was not asking out this amazing girl I was sitting next to at one of the home football games!! Now, those 4 years working in tech, I would like 2 of them back. So you're right that I do feel a little sense of urgency.

-Pistol Pete

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

Hi Jules, yep I fully expect to "pay my dues" and don't mind so long as I can find a place I trust, ie a place where I can see a future beyond cleaning and coffee. So long as I prove myself in areas critical areas, most places should give me real chance, correct?

I read Nigel Godrich was a "coffee boy with a pager" at his first studio in the 90's (Audio One Studios?). So in theory I know how this system works... or do I, ?!

I believe that there are at most 50 studios in this country where you'll be able to see a future beyond cleaning and coffee and I can't name any of them. I was initially thinking a few of the big ones in NYC, but the living expenses are too high to really survive on what you'd make in a salraied position.

Nigel was getting coffee 15 years or so ago. He was engineering and producing on the Bends, so you're using a studio business model from before that and that model is completely outdated.

There are major guys who've paid their dues for years - like mixing albums that went platinum and all of us here know the songs - who aren't working and you want to leave school and have a job, an acutal job where you're working every day of every week like a 9-5er? That's not the industry anymore. There are people who work every day. I've work 31 days in a month, but nono of the people who work every day have "jobs". It's a shame that schools teach with that old model, but if they didn't no one would attend.

You learn how the people who are making money do it and it's not through a job.

[Ernest Buckley]

Work your ass off with the best attitude possible. Serve coffee with a smile.

Don`t take anything personally.
Pay attention to detail.
Always be open to meeting new people.
Make connections because eventually you will help them and they may help you.

If I had to do it all over again, thats the advice I would have needed to hear!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

Just had some quick questions on studio engineering internships. Are they worth the experience? What do you learn there after the 2 months of coffee duty? Should I choose one that uses analog boards, recorders (SSL Neve Studer)? I've seen some that don't.

You should land an internship at whatever studio seems to be busy making the kind of records you'd like to make. If studio "X" is making R&B records but you don't wanna be THAT guy...you want to do nugrassmetal rekkids, then find a shop where you can learn how those kinds of records are made and build some skills and contacts there.

If you land in a huge shop with lots of people you might not get a lot of hands on time...if the shop is too small you might not learn much. There are tradeoffs...

I've been homebrew recording/engineering for around 5 years now and was interested in getting better at it and possibly doing it for a living. I would definitely prefer to have my own studio at some point versus being an engineer at a major studio so I'm mostly looking to improve my skills and get a better picture of the industry before I do something I may regret ;-)

Take some music business classes!!! That's what I'd do if I could do it all again.

Ok...but really....

I don't know what "the scene" is like out there but I've gotta imagine that it's pretty saturated. Last week I got an email from a kid in Murfreesboro, TN who was looking for an internship and to relocate...and really...straight up I told him that if he couldn't find something in and around Nashville that more then likely all hope is lost. There are SOOOOOOO many programs cranking out more graduates then there are jobs in the fiel, somethings gotta give at somepoint and I fear that the "old model" is going the way of the dodo.

When I got into this stuff in the mid-90s landing an internship was easy! I called the studio to make an appoitment, went down there to talk for a bit and started a week later. At the time I had a year of school under my belt and realized that if stuck with it, when I graduated I'd still have to do an internship to land a job so I got out before I spent a lot of time and a LOT of money.

Taking food orders, buying 9 volt batteries, drum heads...getting film developed...all that stuff kinda sucked to be honest but I was around real artists on real records and truthfully, it didn't last that long before I "moved up" and the new intern got those duties and I was spending more & more time in the control room. The other guys at the studio encouraged me to go into the tape vault, pull out reels and learn the room and the consoles automation which all paid off when guest producer/engineers came through the room.

After 5 or 6 months the guy in front of me quit.

Just wigged out one day...we were cutting horns for a 17 or 18 piece Hatian band (maybe they were from Jamaica....WAY too long ago! LOL) and he just fukking up and left in the middle of it. Never came back. It was a great promotion for me!

But anyway, I learned more in those first three months in the studio then I did in a year of school and was expoential. Getting to work alongside some downright amazing producer/engineers (you'd recognize at least some of the names) was truly valuable.

WAY more valuable then 'audio skool' and anything I would've & could've learned there.

How bad do you want it?

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by Ernest Buckley

Don`t take anything personally.
Pay attention to detail.
Always be open to meeting new people.
Make connections because eventually you will help them and they may help you.

Ernest, great advice. Especially not taking things personally, some people have a tendency to do that and I've found myself in that group from time to time.

-Pistol