Fixing Off Sets Due to Auto Tune On Pro Tools HD...

[Stick]

Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't AT induce a conisitant amount of delay? Just nudge the whole track earlier. Hmmm, now that I think about it, I remember hearing somewhere that it's not so consistant (I use PitchDoctor). Then yeah, VocAlign would work great for that.

later,
stick

[ixnys]

I never get a big delay when I use AT in graph or auto mode. I mean sometimes I might nudge it back a little...10ms..but hell I just finished ATing a track...and I don't even think I need to bother nudging it. There doesn't seem to be an audible delay.

Pitch Doctor on the other hand is a different story. I don't why it says it causes a 89ms delay, but when I command click the volume knob, the delay is like 2000ms.

[Stick]

Originally posted by ixnys
I never get a big delay when I use AT in graph or auto mode. I mean sometimes I might nudge it back a little...10ms..but hell I just finished ATing a track...and I don't even think I need to bother nudging it. There doesn't seem to be an audible delay.

Pitch Doctor on the other hand is a different story. I don't why it says it causes a 89ms delay, but when I command click the volume knob, the delay is like 2000ms.

In my Mix system PitchDoctor is 3926 samples slow. One nudge, and away we go. I just find it much easier to control and make sound transparent-esque.

[BobbyPeru]

The delays I get are very small: 0-20ms

but that's plenty time to make a track seem late or early.

Once again I'm using Graph Mode only.

The delays are inconsistent some words later than others. Sometimes it cuts held notes short, also, beat-wise.

This is why I do it word by word. It turns out great, it just takes forever.


So, to clarify about VocAlign:
I could just VocAlign my AT Track to my Original Non-AT'ed Track and this would line everything up?

Is anyone doing this?


Bobby Peru
Milwaukee, WI

[Stick]

Originally posted by BobbyPeru
The delays I get are very small: 0-20ms

but that's plenty time to make a track seem late or early.

Once again I'm using Graph Mode only.

The delays are inconsistent some words later than others. Sometimes it cuts held notes short, also, beat-wise.

This is why I do it word by word. It turns out great, it just takes forever.


So, to clarify about VocAlign:
I could just VocAlign my AT Track to my Original Non-AT'ed Track and this would line everything up?

Is anyone doing this?


Bobby Peru
Milwaukee, WI

Yeah, that would work great. I sped up a vocal one time by compressing the original, getting lots of ugly artifacts, then used VocAlign to lock the uncompressed one to the faster one. Worked great. VocAlign is a very cool thing.

[Noah]

I just thought that I would throw in an answer about the delay of PitchDoctor. When we designed PitchDoctor we felt that a fixed delay time was better for both the ease of use, and for quality. In order to do high-quality Formant Preserving Pitch Shifting we needed that larger amount of delay time. The results are that you don't get the "Cher" effect when you are doing some serious tuning, but you still get really good sounding real time correction. If you need to fine tune the correction, you can use PitchDoctor to create an automation guide, which it can then read. You can tweak that automation track to get the desired effect.

The delay time of PitchDoctor is dependant on the sample rate of the audio that you are using. So, as was described earlier by Stick the delay times in samples would be:

@44.1=3924.9 samples
@48=4272 samples
@96=8544 samples

This is figured out by Multiplying the Sample rate X 89 miliseconds.

We all wish that Digi had Automatic Delay compensation, but they don't, so the next easiest thing to do is nudge the track once, and you are all set.

Have a good one,
Noah
(SoundToys, formerly Wave Mechanics)

[Noah]

Hi Brain,

Our UltraTools line is all TDM only (Except for Speed, which is AudioSuite). We are about to release HD Accel support for it, but RTAS implementation is a ways off. It will happen, but not for a number of months. The UltraTools line was written specifically for the TDM platform, and it's a big job to port some of that stuff over to RTAS. It will happen though.

Our new UltraFX line, of which FilterFreak is the first to be released, (PhaseMistress, Crystallizer and EchoBoy will be out soon) are all RTAS/HTDM for the time being, with TDM support coming around NAMM.

Anyway, thanks for your interest in our stuff, and I'm sorry that I couldn't give you a "Yes, Definitely" answer, but it will happen. The more we hear from our users the better we help them out.

Happy Halloween,

Noah

[Steve Smith]

You are getting delays with the AudioSuite version that are that big? I am not noticing any real appreciable delays here...

maybe I just suck..

[stealthbalance]

antares autotune delays vari continually depending on how much tuning you are doing. i wish it was a fixed amount because this drives me nuts. having said that, im about to jump ship on autotune and start using melodyne - it seems light years ahead of good ol' autotune - i haven't gotten into it yet , but im sure i will be WAY into it. i hope there is no nightmare problems with that program.
s

[BobbyPeru]

I just shot the 0-20ms of the top of my head.

Thinking of it more it's probably more like 0-5ms.


It's enough that I notice it.

Bobby Peru
Milwaukee, WI

[gsharp]

What I do is setup the zoom keys (you know 1-5) so that 5 will be soomed in really tight and say, 3, will be zoomed back out to a reasonable view of things, say wide enough to see a couple lines. While in slip mode, tab to transient on the tuned track, hit 5 to zoom way in, look to see the corresponding part of the wave form in the untuned track and just grab the tuned one and slide it til it lines up with the original. Hit 3 to zoom back out and tab to the next line, etc... Then I go back and do all the trimming and cross fades in one pass through.

Basically I look for a "landmark" or particular shape in the wave forms that I can line them up to each other with. Slide it til they line up and presto. At worst your a couple samples off.

[Steve Smith]

Cool, 0-5 or so I can understand..

and to answer, yes, I think Vocalignin gto the original track could solve the problem. I love that plug.

[Jules]

"Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't AT induce a conisitant amount of delay?"

NO! It VARIES depending on how hard it is working - major PITA

YES! - VocAlign the tuned to the original (or make the singer sound even WORSE)

[davemc]

Originally posted by Noah
Hi Brain,

Our UltraTools line is all TDM only (Except for Speed, which is AudioSuite). We are about to release HD Accel support for it, but RTAS implementation is a ways off. It will happen, but not for a number of months. The UltraTools line was written specifically for the TDM platform, and it's a big job to port some of that stuff over to RTAS. It will happen though.

Our new UltraFX line, of which FilterFreak is the first to be released, (PhaseMistress, Crystallizer and EchoBoy will be out soon) are all RTAS/HTDM for the time being, with TDM support coming around NAMM.

Anyway, thanks for your interest in our stuff, and I'm sorry that I couldn't give you a "Yes, Definitely" answer, but it will happen. The more we hear from our users the better we help them out.

Happy Halloween,

Noah

Thanks for the info Noah, sorry off topic but is Audiosuite for soundblender ever going to happen.

[Stick]

Originally posted by Jules

NO! It VARIES depending on how hard it is working - major PITA

Ah, my bad... what a pain. I like PitchDoctor.

[Kenny Gioia]

I must be crazy but I can't hear any delay.

I must be deaf but I never shift anything back after using graphic mode.

It's not a hi hat. If anything the vocal will sound more laid back. A good thing.

I'm definitely not gonna start trying to fix them now. I'm not opening that Pandora's box.

No offense, but maybe some of you are listening with your eyes and not your ears.

YMMV

Peace

[Steve Smith]

Originally posted by Produceher
I must be crazy but I can't hear any delay.

I must be deaf but I never shift anything back after using graphic mode.

It's not a hi hat. If anything the vocal will sound more laid back. A good thing.

I'm definitely not gonna start trying to fix them now. I'm not opening that Pandora's box.

No offense, but maybe some of you are listening with your eyes and not your ears.

YMMV

Peace

I often have no problem, but if you are having to do extreme tuning on tight passages of doubles vocals.. it becomes a problem.

[Kenny Gioia]

Good point.

[Jules]

The timing "feel' of fast rhythmic vocals gets RUINED instantly by Auto Tune if it is not tiime aligned back into its EXACT original position - IMNSHO

BY THE WAY - I am refering to a TDM plug in bussed to another track in record. I dont know if this happens using the AUDIOSUITE version of the plug in, (anyone have a theory about this?) but I rarely use that as it doesn't allow me to check RELATIVE pitch against the music, and I personally can't base decisions on a soloed vocal, I am lost without hearing relative pitch to the music)

It might be harder to hear on slower music but the TDM version monkeys with timing I am certain..

Thoughts?

[ixnys]

There like 2 ms delay on the audiosuite version....Nothing really noticeable. Can nudge back and math to orignal audio easliy.

[Jules]

The question is, - is it always the SAME delay...

Always 2 MS?



I doubt it...

Anyone have time to do a test?

[Steve Smith]

Originally posted by Jules
The timing "feel' of fast rhythmic vocals gets RUINED instantly by Auto Tune if it is not tiime aligned back into its EXACT original position - IMNSHO

BY THE WAY - I am refering to a TDM plug in bussed to another track in record. I dont know if this happens using the AUDIOSUITE version of the plug in, (anyone have a theory about this?) but I rarely use that as it doesn't allow me to check RELATIVE pitch against the music, and I personally can't base decisions on a soloed vocal, I am lost without hearing relative pitch to the music)

It might be harder to hear on slower music but the TDM version monkeys with timing I am certain..

Thoughts?

here is what I allways do tuning vocals..

Select the phrase, word, verse to be tuned ( I allmost allways tune 5-8 seconds at a time)

Seprate it into its own region.

open auto tune, and go into Graphical mode, tune as needed, playing just the clip of audio so all is locked.

Open the Audiosuite version of AT.

Copy settings of plug, paste into Audiosuite version, process, move on to next phrase. Then I generally put the plug in ( RTAS ) on the vocal in auto mode just barely tuning, or take it off alltogether.

anyone else doing this method?

[BobbyPeru]

There is a delay. It is NOT the same delay every time. There's no need to do the test. There's not only a delay, but also sometimes it shaves off a fraction of held notes as well. Perhaps "shaves off isn't the right word here, because the ending consonant remains intact. Condenses, it condenses certain held notes. That is exactly what my original post is about:

TDM Audio Suite AutoTune and having to nudge each word back in place. Is there an easy way to do it? Perhaps VocAlign, which people have told me to try.

If the delay was consistent I could just nudge the whole track back, but that ain't the way it is.

The more AT shifts the note, the more it delays, and, if you look closely, you will notice AT starts the delay when you first track the pitch.

So, I figured out:
1. Highlight portion of audio to AT.
2. Hit "Track Pitch"
3. Draw in your pitches in AT
4. Now hit Undo, thus un-doing the AT "Track Pitch", but the portion of audio remains highlighted.
5. Now hit process. Thus processing the same portion of audio you Tracked, but skipping the delay introduced with the "Track Pitch" function.

No offense Produceher, but timing is timing. A little delay won't ALWAYS make something laid back, what if the vocal is laid back already, what if the vocal supposed to sound on top of the beat.

Even 1-2 ms is a big deal, this is where "feel" resides. When I AT, I'm not trying to change the feel of a track, I just want to change the pitch.

Not to mention some of the shit sounds just downright LATE. Depending how much FIX there is. If you don't hear it, fine, you don't hear it. Compared to the original track I hear the offset night and day. You play the Original and it sounds off pitch-wise, you play the AT and it will sound off rhythmically.

BTW: I'm going to download a demo of VocAlign this week, to check it out. Thanks for the tips.


Bobby Peru
Milwaukee, WI

[invisibl]

A quick thought pops in to my head.
A poster above said look for a "landmark" in the vocal line.
Great unless it has none.
Alternatively, i suggest having a "2pop' in yr region bin, copying this into clipboard memory. and pasting it at the front of each phrase that needs a landmark, Prior to the first mod.
Easy enough to line em back up Post ATune.
And easy enough to delete the lil guy after Atune.