Fake Clients

[AjD]

Meet the "Fake Client."

They look like real clients. Talk like real clients. Ask them... they are certain they are real clients. But nevertheless, they aren't real clients. Maybe someday they will be. But not now.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Excellent guitarist/multi-instrumentalist guy - we'll call him Bobby - from a well-respected local band happens to visit my studio, adding organ overdubs to a (real!) client's project. Bobby has come via invitation of the real client. It's Bobby's first time seeing how things work at my place, and he's impressed.

Bobby's having a great time. He's laying down great takes. He's totally enthused by both the set-up and the process of what's going on with the Real Client's project at my studio. "I've got a solo album I'd planning to record," says Bobby the Fake Client as the night wraps up, "Can I call you so we can talk more about it?"

"Of course," I reply. And we do - eventually setting up a face-to-face meeting. Since I typically produce/engineer (rather than just engineer), we talk about goals, process, song selection, direction, and mood. Everything is as it should be. We even hammer out a rough plan for how the project might proceed. The first date - cutting demos - is scheduled.

And then.... nothing. That first date is cancelled. In advance, of course. So it's not too big deal. So we reschedule. But then it happens again. All along, Bobby the Fake Client is apologetic. "I want to get this project moving," he claims. And he doesn't seem to be lying. To me, at least. And yet...

The project never gets off the ground. When the third cancellation happens, I know better than to try to reschedule. Rather, I fall back on my standard, "It seems like you have a lot of irons in the fire right now. Let's talk again when things free up..."

And that's the end of it. Never hear from the guy again. (And no, the project doesn't wind up getting produced elsewhere. It just... fizzles.)

Anyone else have these experiences occasionally? Fake Clients aren't frequent at my place, but they happen enough that I sense a trend.

Adam

[flail19]

I think it boils down to this:

Fake Client=no Money
Real Client= Money

[AjD]

Fake Client=no Money

Yeah, I hear that. Definitely one of the more common reasons for Fake Clients.

I also have seen at least as many situations where the client is afraid of their own success. That is, they have an initial burst of confidence ("I'm gonna finally record that solo album I've been talking about since '88!"), but it promptly fizzles under the weight of their own self-doubt.

They think that contacting a producer and scheduling studio time will allow them to overcome their own mental block. It doesn't.

Sad thing is, it seems like some very talented people are Fake Clients. If they actually recorded their intended projects, they would probably be good albums.

Adam

P.S. Near the end of projects, I've also seen Real Clients suddenly turn into Fake Clients. Which almost always seems related to the fear-of-success thing (or fear-of-finishing perhaps?).

[eligit]

Originally Posted by flail19

I think it boils down to this:

Fake Client=no Money
Real Client= Money

exactly. every musician has stuff they want to record professionally and loves talking to good engineers with good studios about it. but most do not have the cash on hand to do so.

that's life...

[joeq]

Originally Posted by AjD

Anyone else have these experiences occasionally? Fake Clients aren't frequent at my place, but they happen enough that I sense a trend.

In the talk about goals and process and song selection and direction and mood, I try to steer the talk around to money and where it is coming from and I can often get a realistic sense of whether this person is someone who is actually going to make an album or is just double-glass window shopping.

Sometimes with a frank discussion about finances, I can even encourage the person to start slowly or think smaller or plan long-term which might make it more likely to happen. Either way, I have seen where this person is at and I don't end up holding my breath.

In the past, I know I was complicit with this type of client in treating money like the Elephant In The Room, thinking I didn't want to "scare him off". We would both pretend that the money was There. But I have come around to thinking that they are already scared about money and my pretending isn't going to change that.

I think you have to look at it like fishing. You land some big ones, some get away, some turn out to be an old boot.

[GilWave]

Originally Posted by AjD

Sad thing is, it seems like some very talented people are Fake Clients. If they actually recorded their intended projects, they would probably be good albums

So true.

Have been waiting, hoping for a solo Van Halen record. Will probably see the new Guns N Roses record first!! ;-)

-gil

[danasti]

Originally Posted by AjD

The project never gets off the ground. When the third cancellation happens, I know better than to try to reschedule. Rather, I fall back on my standard, "It seems like you have a lot of irons in the fire right now. Let's talk again when things free up..."

...but they happen enough that I sense a trend.

Adam

yep!

there's a trend.. It's called b*llshit!

determining how to smell, spot and destroy b*llshit is key to every business. Especially ANY part of the music business.

If you don't get good at spotting b*llshit you'll waste a hell of a lot of time and, eventually, be out of business.

b*llshit and b*llshitters have always been around. Will always be around... you can't change that - you can only change how you deal with it.

[ToddF]

I hear where your coming from but you never know when that person might actually come though.

The best thing is a deposit. Strict cancellation policy and you will find many less headaches. Yes you will bend the rules once in a while but you will be surprised at how when there is money on the line, the client shows up and on time. Well not always on time.

Todd F.

[joelpatterson]

Sometimes, when people are talking to me, I get the sense that talking to me is the way they try to convince themselves that they're serious. Or... going to get serious. Or... at least they're not a total flake. I mean... they're talking, right?

Right?

[joeq]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Sometimes, when people are talking to me, I get the sense that talking to me is the way they try to convince themselves that they're serious. Or... going to get serious. Or... at least they're not a total flake. I mean... they're talking, right?

Right?

exactly. For a lot of people, talking to an engineer about your project is an entertainment in and of itself. Not as much fun as actually recording your project, but a hell of a lot cheaper.

It is really no different from a guy walking into the car dealership just to kick the tires. Just like the car dealer, you have to be polite to everyone without letting them suck your energy away from the real customers. You also have to be philosphical about the fact that not every 'nibble' will turn into a sale.


Sometimes when "prospective clients" just want to talk and talk and talk ABOUT their project, I feel like a psychiatrist who is giving Studio Talk Therapy. There was one guy I literally had to tell him I would have to start charging him for any further "consultations". That got rid of him in a hurry.

I think it's not quite right to view these people as bullshitters who are flaking out on US. They are flaking out on themselves, we are just the means they use to string themselves along. They don't gain anything by letting the studio owner down.

They really deserve your pity. They have an album in them, or at least think they do, and its not going to happen because they lack the money or the drive - a far sadder outcome than losing one gig.

As for it being an increasing trend, I have seen this exact thing for a long long time, and haven't noticed more of it lately. But if there is a trend, perhaps it is linked to the explosion of home and desktop recording. Those people with a little money and SOME drive go out and buy their own gear, leaving a higher percentage of ditzes wandering around talking to studios about their project.

[AjD]

Originally Posted by joeq

I think it's not quite right to view these people as bullshitters who are flaking out on US. They are flaking out on themselves, we are just the means they use to string themselves along.

Couldn't agree more... they don't even realize they are Fake Clients. When they finally flake out, they seem truly, truly embarasssed... shamed even. It's kind of difficult to watch.

(And I'm certain I'll run into 'Bobby the Fake Client' again at some music event. I was very business-like with him, and there was closure. But it will still be awkward - mostly for him.)

Also agree with the poster that said sometimes Fake Clients turn into Real Clients down the road. If you can catch them later, at that point when they finally overcome their 'block' or whatever it is that got in their way, some great music can be made. It's cathartic for them - when they finally get out whatever they've been holding back, musically.

Pretty risky proposition though. For you, that is.

Adam

[Plush]

Nothing new here---it's the music business.

[jjochems78]

I deal with the same thing in music sales. Guy comes in saying he wants me to work him up a quote of a full studio. I ask him what the hell hes talking about. He basically tells me he wants to buy an entire studio and he wants ME to tell him what to get.

I ask him "dont you have an engineer?" he says yes, but i never get to meet him and apparantly this "engineer" doesnt really care at all what equipment hes going to be working with in this studio. I couldnt even get a budget from this guy until i beat it out of him. He kept saying "The skys the limit. Just tell me what to get" Then once i started giving him prices on SSL and Crane Song equipment, he tells me 50k.

I knew this guy was going to balk. But you never really know so i started a template. And eventually i called him back and said "Listen dude, at least give me a GENERAL idea as to what you want in this studio and what you're going to do" And then he never called me back. If this people are completely delusional, thats at least a forgivable attribute. What pisses me off is that these people dont at least have the decency to call you up and say "Sorry, its not going to happen, dont continue to waste your time."

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by joeq

In the talk about goals and process and song selection and direction and mood, I try to steer the talk around to money and where it is coming from and I can often get a realistic sense of whether this person is someone who is actually going to make an album or is just double-glass window shopping.

Sometimes with a frank discussion about finances, I can even encourage the person to start slowly or think smaller or plan long-term which might make it more likely to happen. Either way, I have seen where this person is at and I don't end up holding my breath.

In the past, I know I was complicit with this type of client in treating money like the Elephant In The Room, thinking I didn't want to "scare him off". We would both pretend that the money was There. But I have come around to thinking that they are already scared about money and my pretending isn't going to change that.

I think you have to look at it like fishing. You land some big ones, some get away, some turn out to be an old boot.

That makes so much sense.

I know that feeling of the elephant in the room. You have to go up and slap that baby on the belly and go, "OK, now about the elephant..."

I like the idea of sussing out (gently) where the money is coming from -- and, by extension, whether or not the potential client has unrealistic expectations for a return on his investment.

It's my perception (although I haven't taken clients now in a number of years) that a lot of first time recordists (or people working on their first self-financed album) may have unrealistic expectations about such a release (or at least have not thought through the practical realities).

[Infernal Device]

Always happens.

I had a band email me. They told me they wanted to set up a meeting about a really big project.

I met with them. They wore their sunglasses inside. All new clothes from Hot Topic.

They bragged that although they do not have a drummer, no website, not a full set, no experience, and no money, they are going to be the next biggest thing. They are "shopping" for producers who will be there for them every step of way (but not get paid).

They brought their manager, who assured me they have major label interest.

When I told then the rates, they acted insulted, as though I should be paying them.

I never heard from them again. I'm glad.

[lemix]

Ha...
I fortunately only have/had dealings with semi-flakes.
You know, the past solid clients..since running their own little project rooms or have a buddy with good rates.
They always contact me first, mostly for audio / recording advice or to check out their new album..
After they receive my best qoute..they just vanish. I find out later that they opted for XXX basement super special all inclusive package
There is usually a remix and mastering booking comes out of these type of situations though.
However, some of them are truly willing to book and have valid reasons to postpone and delay months on end. Like..financing delays, bass player quit, lead player in on tour in Europe..etc.

As far as the unknown first time callers who totally flake out...it's their loss, as posted earlier. And..I'm willing to bet these are the lurkers/trolls in this forum with the what is the best mic / what EQ settings do you use type questions..

Oh well..
take care all, my Guinness is about chilled by now

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by jjochems78

I If this people are completely delusional, thats at least a forgivable attribute. What pisses me off is that these people dont at least have the decency to call you up and say "Sorry, its not going to happen, dont continue to waste your time."

When I was doing MI sales in the 90's we always used to qualify the customer.
Questions like "what is your budget" and "when are you ready to finalise payment" were opening questions and would be inserted in amongst the normal gear conversation.
Without qualifying the sale you galloping up diarrhea drive without a saddle.

JR

[u b k]

Originally Posted by AjD

I also have seen at least as many situations where the client is afraid of their own success. That is, they have an initial burst of confidence ("I'm gonna finally record that solo album I've been talking about since '88!"), but it promptly fizzles under the weight of their own self-doubt.

bingo.

anyone who thinks this about money is truly missing the nuances of the artist psyche.

these guys are not full of sh¡t, they are speaking their dreams in the hopes that if they say it, if they commit to it and flesh it out and get someone on board who can help them, they will finally, actually, do it.

then they leave the moment, the place where all things are possible and there is only ever one thing to do, and Resistance immediately begins to eat away at the hope and promise they've built up. day after day inside their own fear-racked skull the war of attrition is slowly lost, and they eventually fade away in defeat.

money is not the issue. money is NEVER the issue, it is merely a forum within which fear finds the illusion of credibility. a driven human being is, among many other things, unstoppable.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[thethrillfactor]

,,,fake recording engineers!!!

You know the guy i am talking about.

The guy that's either the boyfriend of the hot girl singer(who's just there because he doesn't trust other engineers) or the "friend" that shows up to a client session to be the "extra pair" of ears or the guy who thinks he knows everything by quoting frequencies, compression jargon or PTools commands.

And all he does is either make things more confusing by critiqueing everything in turn making the client even more indecisive or bull shits the whole time telling stories what so and so and does or what he did at said studio.

If you are so fukking great why the fukk am i engineering your friends session...huh?


And you know what's funny is i even had a guy quote me back something i actually said in a post here...like it was something he made up.

What a complete doofus.

In the future if you get invited to a recording session do us all a favor...please stay at home you talenless "no ears" bastard.

[jjochems78]

Originally Posted by richmondjames

When I was doing MI sales in the 90's we always used to qualify the customer.
Questions like "what is your budget" and "when are you ready to finalise payment" were opening questions and would be inserted in amongst the normal gear conversation.
Without qualifying the sale you galloping up diarrhea drive without a saddle.

JR

Oh i know, i know. There was a bit of that going on. Some people are just difficult to qualify because

(a) they dont want to admit if they are ignorant about equipment
(b) they dont want to put any effort in finding out what they need

both of those were the case with this guy. he just wouldnt let me qualify him. he just wanted me to write it up. which makes the whole process ALOT more difficult

[absrec]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

In the future if you get invited to a recording session do us all a favor...please stay at home you talenless "no ears" bastard.

Damn, you're harsh!

I know the guy you're talking about, though. I usually ask him to go in the break room and check his email. 90% of the time, he get's the picture and shuts up. The other 10% of the time, I say something to whoever invited his ass. He justs wants to make it known that he reads internet recording forums, Recording, Mix, TapeOp, etc. More than once, I've had one of those guys bring their band in to cut some stuff and realized that they weren't an idiot, just envious of what we do and excited about learning new stuff.

-Aaron

[octatonic]

I had this bloke turn up for a session today...
I sent him packing.

[Don S]

One of my clients actually PAID a guy to learn protools while experimenting on his project for $10 an hour. For the completed CD it wound up to be about 200 hours - 2 grand. And of course it sounded awful. I just felt bad charging them anything since they already laid out 2 grand. I felt like asking them what they thought they would get for $10 and hour froom a guy that didn't know PT.

[carival]

One of my three rules about sessions. That guy, girlfriends/wives and photographers are not allowed to be present while we're working. I did a record this year where the client (against my will) brought "THAT GUY" in to "help" with their well rehearsed live recording. He spent 6 hours telling each of the seasoned players how to play their instruments and change their parts. All the time, wanting to hear different mics, etc. that he had read about, but had never seen or used. He finally got all tuckered out and fell asleep on the couch. We then proceeded to record 12 tracks in the next 6 hours. What a bafoon! More on the client topic, I have several musician "friends" that have wasted a good deal of my time for years by planning/scheduling projects that don't happen with me. Stupidly, I usually know from the start that it ain't gonna happen. They just can't afford it. Oh well. I still get them work as session players when I can.

[s.d.finley]

Originally Posted by Infernal Device

Always happens.

They wore their sunglasses inside. All new clothes from Hot Topic.
.

Ahhh, you should've known!!!

Thats pretty funny tho...

sdf

[Infernal Device]

Originally Posted by u b i k

money is not the issue. money is NEVER the issue, it is merely a forum within which fear finds the illusion of credibility. a driven human being is, among many other things, unstoppable.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

wow that's good.