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"Modern" Guitar Sound?
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rockcamaro97
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#1
16th August 2006
Old 16th August 2006
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"Modern" Guitar Sound?

I know this is kinduv a cheezy thread, but im hoping it will draw some attention. Lately I have been working with a local minstream rock band, and things are going well, except well... how the guitar sounds. I know a lot of the problem lies in the guitar players choice of Amp, being a "valvestate" Marshall AVT150. Ive never really liked the sounds this amp cranks out. Noone I know of in this area(back country NC) that ive worked with has a tube amp (Mesa, H&K ect...) so im wondering if whats coming out can be remedied on my end, or at least band-aid-ed a bit. Ive got that solid state chill goin on.

What ive tried:

I took basically every mic I own and threw it at this. I ended up with a Shure PG 52 kick mic on the grill, a Shure KSM 27 ~6 ft away, and a AT3035 behind the cab, ~1 ft away. I stole this Technique from Crossfade. They used this on their 1st self recorded album(dyn on the grill, condensor 6ft away). The cabinet is open back, so the AT was picking up a good bit of the low end and let me fill the sound up a bit. Im also layering to give the illusion of 2 guitars in a 1 guitar player band with a very low end sound and then a very high "chicky" sound. The sound is thick, but really has no life whatsoever. When i get home frmo work, i can post examples.

The sounds ive been listning too lately that i really like are:
Dark New Day
Disturbed
and last and the one i like the most, the new Breaking Benjamin release, "Phobia"

Any help would be much appriciated.

Matt
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16th August 2006
Old 16th August 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcamaro97 View Post
I I ended up with a Shure PG 52 kick mic on the grill, a Shure KSM 27 ~6 ft away, and a AT3035 behind the cab, ~1 ft away. I stole this Technique from Crossfade. They used this on their 1st self recorded album(dyn on the grill, condensor 6ft away).
Matt

Crossfade used Podxt. I didnt know they mic'd it though..I thought it was direct

I would like to know how Disturbed get their huge present sound too but unfortunately someone always says--"well it easy..you just do this and that" but they dont back it up with any recordings of their own or they do post a link --but they missed the mark in a big way. If it was so easy everyone wouldnt be running to Randy Staub and a select few others to get it.

or someone will say a small Fender can sounds huge...man I love that one. Big yes..but not exactly the modern rock sound.
#3
17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcamaro97 View Post
I know a lot of the problem lies in the guitar players choice of Amp, being a "valvestate" Marshall AVT150. Ive never really liked the sounds this amp cranks out. Noone I know of in this area(back country NC) that ive worked with has a tube amp (Mesa, H&K ect...) so im wondering if whats coming out can be remedied on my end, or at least band-aid-ed a bit. Ive got that solid state chill goin on.
Forget it. You'll never be able to turn a Marshall valvestate into a Mesa no matter what micing techniques you use. Those things are pieces....
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17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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You could split the signal before the amp with a direct box and record a dry track of the direct guitar, then use Nigel or Amplitube or Ampfarm after the fact.
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17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcollinge View Post
Forget it. You'll never be able to turn a Marshall valvestate into a Mesa no matter what micing techniques you use. Those things are pieces....


Hell yes they are. I'd buy a used Mesa 10 times outta 10 over another POS avt head.
#6
17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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valvestate amps are a no no for that sound you want



you have to think Mesa, Bogner, Randall, Engl, Marshall JCM series with mods.


It's an exoensie tone and the valvestates don't make the cut.


Try out some of these rigs


good luck


Jason
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17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcollinge View Post
Forget it. You'll never be able to turn a Marshall valvestate into a Mesa no matter what micing techniques you use. Those things are pieces....

Agreed. I thought Marshall did everyone a large disservice by the whole AVT range. fuuck
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17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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I did a record recently where we combined:

Marshall Mode 4 with TSL900.
Using Josephson C42MP, Little Labs STD, IBP jr. and Buzz MA2.2 on Mode 4/Tab V78 on TSL.

Everyone who heard it thought it was Mesa Rectifier...

But I agree, no point on 'cloning' a brand to sound like another.
The point of tracking that Marshall wasn't to make it sound like Mesa in the first place, but to capture the tone both amps give to the song.
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17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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For modern rock with mid to heavy distortion some basic guidelines:

1. Good guitar (PRS, Parker, Anderson etc.)
2. Good top (ENGL, Diezel etc.)
3. Palmer or Motherload amp load/cab simulator.
4. Line splitter (to route multiple channels with various colors and effects)
5. Good pres (Great River, Germanium etc.)
6. Add effects as delays, subtle EQ and similar to different channels (sometmes 3,4, 6 etc.) pan and submix.
7. Play with LP and HP. Don't overEQ, compressors are generally not necessary here (sometimes just for colours)
8. Listen guitar sound in context of drums, bass guitar and vocals. It can happenned that less convincing soloed guitar submix will sit much better in the mix than idealy sounding guitar track.
9. Experiment alot and you'll find formula that works .
10. Bad player can fukk up all above points easily

Try Portico 5042/5043 for guitars.
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17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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Can you post a sample?

That would be better to evaluate.

Did you tried the sm57?
Could you be using too much gain?
How many gtr tracks are you recording?
Are you recording with different amp eqs, different guitars?
Is the gtr player sloppy?

There's a lot of things that may be happening, maybe the main problem isn't the amp.
I never tried that amp, although it may be close to the first amp I bought, a valvestate 8080
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17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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PODS!!!! Man I hate PODS. I thought they sounded just like ANY multi effects when they first came out and they still do. Anyone who has played a real quality tube amp/ cabinet with some nice mics will never accept a POD.... NEVER.
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17th August 2006
Old 17th August 2006
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5150 seems to be a common amp for this type of stuff
#13
18th August 2006
Old 18th August 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang View Post
8. Listen guitar sound in context of drums, bass guitar and vocals. It can happenned that less convincing soloed guitar submix will sit much better in the mix than idealy sounding guitar track.
I just did a long session with lots of guitar tracking. We had a Bogner Shiva sitting there but rarely used it. Instead we used an old Silvertone head, a Supro, Fender Bassman head and a Fender Champ. We switched between Les Paul's, Gretsches and Teles. The sounds by themselves were good but when put in the track...that's where these tones really shined. The pointed attack of a Les Paul layered with a creamier Gretsch was amazing. I definately agree with the statement above.
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2nd September 2006
Old 2nd September 2006
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Phobia

On this record I used a soldano and marshall ts101 and a Randall. A les paul Baritone, an es 335 and a 67 tele. There was some PRS but I am not a fan in the room.Orange back cabinets and special mike placemens and blends of mics. I ran flashlights across the cabs and looked for the sweet spot with checked outy 57's
Neve EQ helps
Always record DI for editing and try and use heavy gauge strings. You need to tune every take and make sure the guitar is low in the mix when recording as most guitarists are ahead of the pocket, click usually is in.
DB





Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcamaro97 View Post
I know this is kinduv a cheezy thread, but im hoping it will draw some attention. Lately I have been working with a local minstream rock band, and things are going well, except well... how the guitar sounds. I know a lot of the problem lies in the guitar players choice of Amp, being a "valvestate" Marshall AVT150. Ive never really liked the sounds this amp cranks out. Noone I know of in this area(back country NC) that ive worked with has a tube amp (Mesa, H&K ect...) so im wondering if whats coming out can be remedied on my end, or at least band-aid-ed a bit. Ive got that solid state chill goin on.

What ive tried:

I took basically every mic I own and threw it at this. I ended up with a Shure PG 52 kick mic on the grill, a Shure KSM 27 ~6 ft away, and a AT3035 behind the cab, ~1 ft away. I stole this Technique from Crossfade. They used this on their 1st self recorded album(dyn on the grill, condensor 6ft away). The cabinet is open back, so the AT was picking up a good bit of the low end and let me fill the sound up a bit. Im also layering to give the illusion of 2 guitars in a 1 guitar player band with a very low end sound and then a very high "chicky" sound. The sound is thick, but really has no life whatsoever. When i get home frmo work, i can post examples.

The sounds ive been listning too lately that i really like are:
Dark New Day
Disturbed
and last and the one i like the most, the new Breaking Benjamin release, "Phobia"

Any help would be much appriciated.

Matt
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2nd September 2006
Old 2nd September 2006
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Diezel and Bogner Amps are the Now

Also, early JCM 800s are still the greatest amps ever made for rock.stike

THD cabinets. The 2X12s with the port in the back.

Put whatever mic you want on it. there is the sound, now, capture it.
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2nd September 2006
Old 2nd September 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Poulin View Post
valvestate amps are a no no for that sound you want



you have to think Mesa, Bogner, Randall, Engl, Marshall JCM series with mods.


It's an exoensie tone and the valvestates don't make the cut.


Try out some of these rigs


good luck


Jason

or diezel
#17
2nd September 2006
Old 2nd September 2006
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did a gig last night and ended up using a CRATE head with a marshall cab - dunno the CRATE but it had a see-thru steel grill with valves behind it and had '120' in the model name

anyways surprisingly good, but someone at the gig said "yeah, but wait till you need to change a valve", apparetly they have weird valve seats so you must only buy special CRATE bradned valves or something

anyways it had an excellent 'grind' sound
Han
#18
2nd September 2006
Old 2nd September 2006
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Guys, always work on the source sound first. The problem with the Valvestate is the power amp, which is crap. The pre amp is pretty good actually, so if you put the line out into the poweramp in of a decent Fender or a decent Marshall tube amp, you're on the right way.

And when you're very happy with the sound you're hearing in the room, put an MD421 MK1 or a Beyer M88 in front of the grill and you're done.

Don't try to fix things afterwords that should have been fixed in the first place.
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2nd September 2006
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I've had some valvestate gear in the studio, and I can verify that there ain't much useful to be done with it. It is what it is.

Sounds like you've already done the tracking, so the very best I could suggest would be to re-amp through something that will give it a bit of life. Even hire or borrow a Mesa combo for an afternoon for this.

You won't undo what is already done, but you might make the best of it.
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3rd September 2006
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Guys, I would love to hear samples of your mentioned sessions...

Here are some examples of what I've done that I think fits this thread:

Cobalto
We used a 3 channel Dual Recto w/ Recto straight cab loaded w/ V30.
57 going thru Sytek or RNP, not sure.
ESP LTD Viper w/ Gibson 59 pickups and Jackson Flying V w/ some DiMarzio pickup all tuned do B w/ Zakk Wilde string sets, I think the 6th string was something between .054 to .060.

Intra
The first song "Esperança" is a homemade JCM 800 w/ Tesla caps and tubes on a Hughes & Kettner Vortex cab
57 + 441 on a RNP.
The axe is a PRS Tremonti SE w/ real Tremonti pickups, sounds great to me!
Other songs had a Laney VH100 w/ some old Sovtek tubes.... everything else is the same.
Double tracked, sometimes there's something like 3 or 4 rhythm guitars, 99% is doubled.

Automata
On this one is more elaborated, we had the Recto, a V-Twin + 50/50 power amp, a Randall RG100, Soldano SL60, Fender HotRod Deluxe... maybe something else... I don't remember, all heads thru Recto cab.
57 thru RNP.
PRS McArthy, ESP LTD Viper w/ Gibson 59, some Stratos, a cheap Ibanez AX something, a Epiphone semi-acoustic... maybe something else I don't remember.
Since there where 2 guitar players, each one doubled it's parts.


Chow Yun Fat
This one is a Gibson LesPaul Custom, tuned to B. The playing is not THAT tight and the guitar wasn't that prepared to a B tuning.
Amp is a Laney VH100 thru Hughes & Kettner Vortex cab.
57 thru RNP. All doubled.

Nash
This one I didn't track the guitars, but I mixed it just for fun.
Guitars where tracked with a JCM2000 DSL 20w into a Brazilian made Meteoro 2x12 cab, with a SM58 into a SoundBlaster Live sound card!!!!!!!!!
PRS CE 22 Maple Top and a Epiphone LesPaul Custom w/ Seimour Duncan I don't know what model pickup.

All those bands are local bands here and I mixed and mastered all but AUTOMATA which was mastered in the US.

Let me know what you think.

There is a session I'm doing now, we just finished guitars, we used the same Mesa Dual Recto, the homemade JCM 800 and a Mesa Triaxis V2.0 with Phat mod into JCM's power amp thru a Recto cab. 57 + 441 into RNP.
We used a Gibson LesPaul Std Plus and a PRS McArthy. I have to say, the LP sounds AMAZING! The best LP I've tracked, the only guitar I tracked that sounds close to it is the PRS Tremonti SE w/ Tremonti pickups. I'll post samples as soon as I can.
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5th September 2006
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bump!
#22
5th September 2006
Old 5th September 2006
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I´m the owner of one of the smaller Engl combos (Engl Thunder), and they sound huge. They have a very nice sounding distortion.
Other technique I´m using recently with great reward is: guitar into H&K Tube Factor, then into 1176, afterwards tube pre and into PC. The wave is then treated with Voxengo´s freeware Boogex

Greetings,

Michael
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5th September 2006
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First: Pods SUCK, -sorry did I state that already? e Valve states suck as already mentioned.


Assuming you have a royer 121, sm57 and a compatible pre.


Best things you can do that is the CHEAPEST, is use a modern progressive ROCK pick up like a seymour JB SH-4, Gibson 500T, Gibson Tony Iommi, Di Marzio Evolution or another hi gain, for the highest gain sound possible : GO ACTIVE, EMG's think Metallica, Zakk Wylde. THat is your 20 % change right there.

Another 20 percent towards a modern ROCK sound? Easy, SPEAKERS.
Scumbag's: H series, older mid 70's Celestion Blackbacks.

DONE! 45 % percent change!

want more? Well a peavey amp is the cheapest and fastest way. Pick up a 5150 block letter on Ebay for about 700 USD. Wanna be a slut? Get a Soldano, Mesa, Bogner Uberschall, Krank, VHT, Older JCM 800 or the new reissues sound nice, too-but the JCM 800 highest gain is about the same as the 5150 rhythm channel's drive at 7-8. Of course, tubes ( JJ high gain 12 ax7) can tune them up to more gain.

Last, pedals, boosts,eq's , ods and distortions for more than your amps can do at your favorite setting. THat was a 2-3 year quest for me....

Good luck
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