what to charge for production

[Pasta4lnch]

not sure if this is the right forum for this . . . i have an upcoming gig producing a 4 song demo for an indy rock band. I'll be doing all the production, some of the recording, and all the editing. I'll probably farm out most of the recording and mixing to a better equipted studio, although I may end up mixing if I feel I can do a good job ( I hate mixing stuff I produce, I get too excited about the parts and everything ends up louder than everything else!).

the question is what should I charge? i don't think this could be an hourly thing, as i'll be there every step of the way. . . I know it's dependant on the budget . . . but is there a norm? I've done this kinda stuff a lot in the past but i've always been more involved. more as a writer/producer, someone on the root level where money was secondary to the project.

I should also note the bands managers are friends of mine (so i don;t want to rip them off) and I could potentally get a lot more work from this (so I don't want to under cut and be stuck w/ the same fee over and over again)

there were a few threads I found similar to this but it was more from an engineer's point of view . . .

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Pasta4lnch

not sure if this is the right forum for this . . . i have an upcoming gig producing a 4 song demo for an indy rock band. I'll be doing all the production, some of the recording, and all the editing. I'll probably farm out most of the recording and mixing to a better equipted studio, although I may end up mixing if I feel I can do a good job ( I hate mixing stuff I produce, I get too excited about the parts and everything ends up louder than everything else!).

the question is what should I charge? i don't think this could be an hourly thing, as i'll be there every step of the way. . . I know it's dependant on the budget . . . but is there a norm? I've done this kinda stuff a lot in the past but i've always been more involved. more as a writer/producer, someone on the root level where money was secondary to the project.

I should also note the bands managers are friends of mine (so i don;t want to rip them off) and I could potentally get a lot more work from this (so I don't want to under cut and be stuck w/ the same fee over and over again)

there were a few threads I found similar to this but it was more from an engineer's point of view . . .

You don't get a "fee" exactly. You get an advance on royalties. 3 percentage points is customary, and your advance on that 3 points is whatever you negotiate based on overall budget, your track record, and your involvement. If it's a small time demo, figure out how much time you anticipate spending. If you have a couple pre-pro meeting that total maybe 6 hours, and then spend another 4 10-hour days in the studio, you're at 46 hours invested. You know the budget level and your industry experience better than we do. I don't know; how about a $250/song ($1,000) total advance? That's a low number, but I'm just trying to key into the parameters you've set forth, and it sounds like this is a pretty small project from a cash strapped artist, and there will need to be money left over for recording and duplication. You may charge something extra for studio time or engineering as well. Studio time is not production. Let them know that this is not the same deal for every future project. Depending on scope of work, each project is unique. Also, remember to sign a contract, and that you will be entitled to 3% of sales (after advance). You may or may not want to enforce that on the early orders of CDs that they sell at shows etc, or you could just hold the 3 points as a lottery ticket in case they get licensing income or a record deal.

Don't take any of these numbers or conditions as gospel. They're just here to give you an example of one possible deal, and some food for thought when determining what do do wth your individual situation. Good luck.

[Pasta4lnch]

Thanx! That was very helpfull.

[nukmusic]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

You don't get a "fee" exactly. You get an advance on royalties. 3 percentage points is customary, and your advance on that 3 points is whatever you negotiate based on overall budget, your track record, and your involvement. If it's a small time demo, figure out how much time you anticipate spending. If you have a couple pre-pro meeting that total maybe 6 hours, and then spend another 4 10-hour days in the studio, you're at 46 hours invested. You know the budget level and your industry experience better than we do. I don't know; how about a $250/song ($1,000) total advance? That's a low number, but I'm just trying to key into the parameters you've set forth, and it sounds like this is a pretty small project from a cash strapped artist, and there will need to be money left over for recording and duplication. You may charge something extra for studio time or engineering as well. Studio time is not production. Let them know that this is not the same deal for every future project. Depending on scope of work, each project is unique. Also, remember to sign a contract, and that you will be entitled to 3% of sales (after advance). You may or may not want to enforce that on the early orders of CDs that they sell at shows etc, or you could just hold the 3 points as a lottery ticket in case they get licensing income or a record deal.

Don't take any of these numbers or conditions as gospel. They're just here to give you an example of one possible deal, and some food for thought when determining what do do wth your individual situation. Good luck.

Great advice and just to add on..

Producers can charge a "Producer's fee" in addition to the advance...and its usually for the actual studio time used during the production. The fee rate would vary depending on the effort put forth(production, engineering, coaching, playing, etc) and who's studio gear is being used. But charging a producer's fee will most likely lower the advance amount. A lot of times on smaller projects....you can aways work things out if you like the artist and really want to work with them. Its pretty much.."want amount would you be happy with".

and as J said above....get it in writing first. Its better that everyone knows the rules up front vs learning along the way.

[danasti]

Originally Posted by Pasta4lnch

everything ends up louder than everything else!

[wwittman]

Indie projects often don't get paid, and therefore don't pay, on a 'percent of retail' structure...

that is, the band may have a deal on which they get paid a flat dollar amount per record.
if that's the case, "points" don't really work... and you'll need to come up with a flat per record royalty for YOU that works for everyone.

also, try (well, INSIST, really) to get paid directly from the record company on the same schedule they pay the band.
you don't want to count on the band or its manager to get paid.

the hard thing with indies is that they sometimes don't "get" the producer agreement concept... specifically, that YOU start getting paid once the record has recouped RECORDING COSTS (only)... whereas the artiste only gets paid after ALL related costs are recouped.

they sometimes seem to have some trouble doing the bookkeeping or even understanding WHY you shoudn't just get paid when "the record makes money"

but the basic ideas are:
Charge something flat and non-recoupable for engineering/studio
Get an advance (if there's money left and you haven't soaked them on engineering) against future royalties
Establish a royalty rate or amount and arrange for it to be paid directly

[Pasta4lnch]

great stuff! I feel I have a better footing now when I talk money w/ these guys.

[noobtoob]

What do folks here think about the following idea with unsigned indies who have no money: How about a small flat fee upfront and a percentage of master use and/or sync rights as well as first right of refusal? More of a spec deal and if they hit, then there's some back end when theres actually some money. Perhaps Jules could comment.

[six_wax]

Depends how much work you're doing, how much they appreciate it, and what they can afford.

If you're putting in arrangement hours, rehearsal hours, tracking hours, editing hours, etc. on and on... You need to be clear that your time and expertise have value, and here's how many hours you expect to put in.

Since I do most of the engineering on my production projects, I can frame this conversation around an "engineering plus" day rate. If the client is experienced in the studio, they'll be able to get their brains around this... If you've got your own room, or can supply a place to record/OD, then that's got value too. Make sure the client understands that they're getting the use of your facilities, too.

I also have had the privelege of working with some acts that never expect to recoup... they just want to make a kick ass record --so the notion of "percentage of record sales" isn't necessarily a sensible metric. In those cases (and many others, just as a CYA measure) I've started talking about "meteoric upside" --meaning, if something blows up-- and making the conversation center around:

A) Here's me getting compensated for my time with my fee, up front.

B) Here's me getting compensated for my creative contribution with a percentage after recoupment if it turns into a big hit.

Even broke or naive musicians can usually get their head around this... You need to be clear about what value they can expect you to add, and then put a reasonable price on it. It's about communication, imo. And a bit of salesmenship, too.

Of course, if I feel like the act is worth chasing, anything goes. I've gotten a couple grand for a track from some clients, and I've given that same value away if a band was willing to pay my lowest engineering day rate for the time in the studio, just cause I wanted to work with them.