Getting that awesome Elec. Guitar sound

[Jason Poulin]

good day everyone,

I am going to be recording some elec. guit track shortly and I've got a Mesaboogie F100 and a Fender Super Rev. combined with all those fancy guits.

I'm looking for that Tool/A Perfect Circle sound... I get it something very decent using the Mesa but I've stumble apon alot of great guit plugs or soft that I heard alot of GS members are using in combination with their miked up cabs.

Now, I'm looking to better my guitar sound... take it one step further into professionalism.

Does anyone have any tips on combining sounds from various amps/plugs?

how about micing technique as well? I've always been trying different and new things.

Thanks

Jason

[dtobocman]

You need to read Slipperman's brilliant long, multiple post diatribe at RecPit called "a problem with distorted guitars". I don't know which particular forum, sorry...

[Jay Kahrs]

It's in Fletchers forum.

Better settle in with a snack and frosty beverage, it's a long one. Probably about 20 pages now.

The best place to start is with one guitar, one amp, one mic. The more mics and amps you try to use the more you multiply your problems. Mulitple miking is cool, as is using a few amps but the phase problems are enough to send even the bravest of AE's running for cover.

[Bob Olhsson]

I can't think of anything in the realm of great sounds that is easier to get for an engineer than a great guitar sound.

The problem is generally in the guitar setup, the choice of strings, the player's fingers and the use of too much signal processing or a stomp box that's choking the tone of the guitar. I've heard guitar sounds switch from among the worst in memory to among the very best simply by handing the guitar to somebody else. Taking a great guitar sound and making it happen on stage is something else but a Deluxe Reverb, a Marshall 50, a Les Paul, a Tele and a 57 or two with a touch of tape slap should be able to give you almost anything you'd ever want.

[Steve Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I can't think of anything in the realm of great sounds that is easier to get for an engineer than a great guitar sound.

The problem is generally in the guitar setup, the choice of strings, the player's fingers and the use of too much signal processing or a stomp box that's choking the tone of the guitar. I've heard guitar sounds switch from among the worst in memory to among the very best simply by handing the guitar to somebody else. Taking a great guitar sound and making it happen on stage is something else but a Deluxe Reverb, a Marshall 50, a Les Paul, a Tele and a 57 or two with a touch of tape slap should be able to give you almost anything you'd ever want.

With the utmost respect, I agree with Bob, other than in the genre Jason is asking about. Heavy, new metal guitars can be downright evil to record... Slipperman's thread is a great read, and filled with great advis my many folks..

[heinz]

No doubt man... two ways to go on the heavy gtrs route. The easy way (long shot) or the hard way (Slipperman), the latter yielding nicely parametric control. A deep understanding of crushing gtrs using reckless eq & comp. one can only admire the 'off-the-cliff' approach that must only come from doing it a million times.

I've been plugging at it for like 12 years and still only have my toe in the water relatively speaking.

[adam_w]

I had to go and buy a VHT Valvulator so I had something around in the studio which just did that kind of sound out of the box rather than monkeywrench whatever people brought in. When I was in the US, guitar players were totally tone obsessed, an life was easier - in the UK people generally seem a little less clued up and start with crappier gear !

[wurly]

My special super-duper Eddie-Ciletti ultra hot -rodded Silver face pair of LA4's with built-in preamps and phantom power!

Last winter Eddie took one pair of my silver LA4's and built-in a dual gainstage solid state preamp with phantom power with a little consulting help from his friends Dan Kennedy and Dave Hill. The units have custom Sowter input transformers and they absolutely rock on electric guitar or bass when using dynamic mics. He also did his usual op-amp upgrade and opto-cell matching for the compressor section.

Since those babies became my main electric guitar pre/comps, I have had nothing but ecstatic guitar players since last February. No more long faces and disapointment on the guitar players when they walk into the control room. No more, "hey could you come into the studio to see how it's supposed to sound".

Usually their jaws just drop to the floor and they launch into expletives of joy.

Sorry to suggest a custom unit but these are so fine that I couldn't resist.

And don't forget to make sure the amps are in primo condition. My '72 Super Reverb needed to be braced, reglued, speaker bolts replaced, speakers remounted, and the amp totally rebuilt. But it was reallllly worth it!!!!!

Loads-o-luck.

Whir Lee

[BobbyPeru]

Holy Fcuk Balls!

Last night I just started wading through the Slipperman thread.

His guide is brilliant and I started to archive his posts on a set of Word files.

So far I'm on page 11 or 12 of the 27+ page thread. SM has about 6 good posts in there now. Each post translates to about 2-2.5 pages when copied/pasted in word.

Fcuk! This is awesome!

I'm learning so much right now. And it seeems like it's just the right time for most of the stuff, which is perfect. Every post I read makes sense to me.

Thanks a million to: dtobocman for the tip.

Anyone who hasn't checked this out needs to do so.

Bobby Peru
Milwaukee, WI

[Jason Poulin]

thanks guys...

I'll check out that forum.

I've been getting a good sound but it's always the same. (that layered guitar sound that's nothing but punchy)

it's monotonous

Anyhow, I'll check out those threads that you've all suggested.
right now actually!

Thanks

Jason

[Stick]

Hey can somebody post a link over to that thread? I'm not familar with that forum.

Thanks,
stick

[dtobocman]

Originally posted by BobbyPeru
Holy Fcuk Balls!

Last night I just started wading through the Slipperman thread .......

Fcuk! This is awesome! .......

Thanks a million to: dtobocman for the tip.

Thanks Slipperman! Really, it's one of the best things I've ever read on the internet. I'm overwhelmed this guy's generosity. **** Rudy Van Gelder!

[Bob Olhsson]

Slipperman is a hoot, I've actually had to do almost everything he describes at one point or another!

It's exactly what you need to do when you DON'T have a Deluxe Reverb, a Marshall 50, a Les Paul or a Tele and you DO have somebody with a bunch of stomp boxes, a ****ed up guitar, super slinky strings and no touch to speak of.

[smoothmoniker]

can sombody post a link?

thanks
-sm

[wurly]

mdbeh,

So far I have the only ones he has done. I'm not sure of the price as it was part of a larger deal.

I do know that he is willing to do it again. I have a request in to mod my other pair of Silver LA4's for preamps-I'll bring them in when he has an opening. The custom Sowter transformers might be an issue though, I own the entire supply of a dozen or so units.

They were originally made for Pendulum via Manley, but something didn't work out so Eddie ended up buying them on my behalf a couple years ago. I'm so in love with the sound that I'm not anxious to sell any of the transformers. Maybe with sufficient demand Sowter will make some more transformers. That's the business that they're in ya know.

I have two pairs of blackface LA4's that Eddie did his compressor magic on earlier, but I want to find some fool that thinks blackface is older/better, and trade for silver units, because he can't do the preamp thing on blackface units.

As you whir.

Whir Lee

[heinz]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
It's exactly what you need to do when you DON'T have a Deluxe Reverb, a Marshall 50, a Les Paul or a Tele and you DO have somebody with a bunch of stomp boxes, a ****ed up guitar, super slinky strings and no touch to speak of.

Wow. So can we assume here that you're generalizing an entire genre of music as created by incompetent musicians? Or is it perhaps more likely you just don't hang with the hardcore/metal gigs? Because it doesn't sound like it. I've met very few heavy bands that use the equipment you speak of.

[Kris]

Hey now, super slinky strings aren't that bad!!!

[dtobocman]

Originally posted by smoothmoniker
can sombody post a link?

thanks
-sm

the first thread

the second thread

[Jay Kahrs]

Bob, with all due respect that gear just don't cut it for the heavy "nu metal" (damn how I hate those words), hardcore, emo, skater punk stuff. As a player I like my LP Special with P-90's, a Tele and have a Rivera Rake amp. The modern metal players hear and play that stuff and say it sounds like a classic rock record and they're kinda right. The stuff they do requires a whole different guitar and amp setup then Leslie West or Joe Walsh would want to use. Some of those players are extreamly tight and have a great touch. They need it to get what they do out of their rigs without it sounding like a pile of mush.

[Curve Dominant]

Aye aye aye...

Just get the guitarist really pissed off/amped/hyped - get the guitarist to nail that axe to the groove, with extreme righteousness.

Signal chain is SO overrated. A Shure SM57 on a decent amp will do fine.

Pickup settings are an under-estimated science. Get the pickup setting to compliment the mix.

[Ckevperry]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant

Signal chain is SO overrated.

Really? My clients wouldn't really appreciate that attitude from me. They pay me a lot of money to pick the right tools for the job, and not to blow off any facet in my knowledge or ability that will help get them the best recording possible.

That said a Great River NV is one of the most amazing preamps I've tried on electric guitar.

[Bob Olhsson]

Certainly a lot of people don't have the creativity, chops and touch to make that gear cut it but the fact remains that I HAVE heard it done and I have not heard the other approach using stage gear, common as it is, sound nearly as big even using the same player.

Now I'm not approaching this from the point of view of selling massive amounts of studio time or obviously of public relations. Maybe I'm just warning you that someday, somebody is going to show up with the rig I described and you'll have the very same epiphany about this subject I had after ten years of fighting with distorted guitar sounds.

Curve is both right and wrong. A top of the line signal chain eliminates excuses and is often necessary in order to get somebody psyched enough to do a great performance. The bottom line IS the performance and not what one should or should not need in order to pull it off.

Having the best gear and not needing the best gear are BOTH very common ego trips that are best avoided.

[Jason Poulin]

I'll choose performance over TOTL guit rig anyday.

I was listening to the A Perfect Circle through headphones the other day and man does that guy know where to place his guits.

The panning on that album (the first one) is just amazing! it's all over the place and you don't even realize it unless you're paying close attention with the phones on.

it adds alot of deph to his sound. Stereo image is very important. Specially for that style.

Jason

[doug_hti]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson

Having the best gear and not needing the best gear are BOTH very common ego trips that are best avoided.

Best thing I've heard in a long time!!!

[Jason Poulin]

thanks for that link to the Slipperman speack.

wow... I just finished reading all of it. Amazing stuff!!!

I think I going to take a little break from the computer for a little while... I feel overloaded!

thanks again!

Jason

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by slipperman
Experience and the attendant understandings that come with it are funny things in my opinion....

They only gain real value when you give them away.

Isn't that the truth!

It's been fun watching the folks who have worked with me. A few really got "it" and went beyond anything I ever did. THAT feels better to me than all the platinum records in the world. Others still mimic whatever crazy method I happened to be using without understanding that character only comes from fearlessness, from accepting the fact of not knowing exactly what is going take you where you want to go.

[Jason Poulin]

And that makes you a good man for it Slipperman!


And to add to your brilliant theories, you are a hell of a hullarious person when describing a meat head playing his penis extended canoe paddle (whatever you said haha)

At the time reading it I can only visualize some know it all wanker pluckin away while you have that young punk of an assistant in the room crankin the MV or sweeping the mic over the cone while you have a gun laying on the control room desk threatening to shoot anyone that moves in a way you don't agree with.

I can just picture it!!! haha beads of sweat pouring from assistants forhead.

I highly anticipate the next thread Slipperman!!! (theory and comedy of it)

Thanks again

Jason

ps: Your post won't get lost in my HD... I copied all 50 pages of it in Word. great help to me.