Drum 'room sound' totlly absent from contemporary rock production?

[Jules]

Hmmmmm... What do you folks think?

I can't for the life of me hear much evedence AT ALL of room sounds being mixed in these days.

I am refering to punk / hardcore / alt rock.

Obviously bands like Nickleback and Train use it to good effect on their mid tempo FM 'grunge balads'

Funny that used to be an 'art' of drum sound production.

Everything sounds so close, dead and sampled these days.

I'm interested in getting my engineering chops 'updated'.

Very crisp and dry seems to be the order of the day...

Anyone?

What sort of rooms are favored?

Techniques...

The room is on fire? ....... seems not.

[adam_w]

Things are sounding pretty dry (and dare I say.. thin ?) at the moment..having said that, just been tracking drums in a church with overheads at a fair distance, plus a room mic a good 25 feet back in an attempt to get a "live-er than thou" drum sound ! The people I've played it for reckon it sounds like a wild beast comin' to eat ya.. I've got some pix..maybe post 'em ? I figure if there's a trend, ignore it totally !

[heinz]

With mixes getting crushed into flatline these days maybe the drier sounds are more suited to this... or maybe an ambient room sound is hard to reconcile inside the wall of sound. Been listening to the Jane's "STRAYS" album which seems to have some good sounds going on a few tracks.

[jbuntz]

Modern commercial rock production generally sounds bad to my ears. Linkin Park doesn't even resemble a band sonically.

Something to think about that's unfortunate is that most casual listeners aren't real familiar with what a live band sounds like and aren't really turned on by a more natural sound, and as a result, it's not what sells. If Linkin Park actually sounded like a rock band, they probably woudn't sell as many records.

[XHipHop]

There's some 'roomy' stuff on that new Blink 182 single but from the pictures in EQ it looks like they recorded the drums surrounded with tube traps. So they probably created that room sound later.

[Absolute]

In regard to Linkin Park...and live sound.

People care more about what come out of their 2 speakers than how it is done. They could care less about if it sounds live and real. The last thing I think about when listening to music is if it can be done live or if it sounds live or whatever.

The things thats not good is now their masters are crushed to distortion--but the mixes are excellent and not at all boring. The days of the live Led Zep sound of Album 2 are over--and they should be(even though I love it). No one want to see the same movie over and over again

[Chae Ham]

Drum sounds have been pretty dry for a while now that I think about it. You usually only hear reverb on the snare. Having said that, I've been hearing quite a bit of reverb on kicks in ballad-esque songs lately. Previously, reverb on the kick was considered a no no... So, who knows where the trend wind will blow next...

My absolute biggest peeve is hearing these WASHY cymbal sounds drowning out everything else in the ending choruses of songs. The nonstop wishwashwishwash of overplayed cymbals is annoying!

[Robotnik]

Originally posted by jbuntz
Modern commercial rock production generally sounds bad to my ears. Linkin Park doesn't even resemble a band sonically.

Something to think about that's unfortunate is that most casual listeners aren't real familiar with what a live band sounds like and aren't really turned on by a more natural sound, and as a result, it's not what sells. If Linkin Park actually sounded like a rock band, they probably woudn't sell as many records.

I guess your next session will be recorded at a bar with a couple of ADATs?dfegad Let us know how well it "sells."

[Robotnik]

Jules,
It's not that there are no room tones. It's that the bands are recorded in rooms with little or no natural slap-back delay...and the rooms are big. QOTSA (you were commenting about their drum tones in another post) has subtle room tones. Joe is really into subtly with his ambience tracks. The forward sound comes from heavy use of samples and compression. Yes...even Grohl had a bit of SoundReplacer augmentation added to his kit.

[ozraves]

What I'm seeing is less mics on a kit and less reverb and echo than ever. I do think things are drier than ever. I remember the first time I heard Prince's "Kiss." That song was so dry compared to anything that was popular at the time it almost made me nauseous. I need to pull it out and compare it to what's coming out now.

Great thread, BTW.

Steve
www.mojopie.com

[doug_hti]

how much of it has to do with getting punchy drums without mucking up a track with room sound that already has 100 (90 of which are irrelevant) tracks? Sometimes it seems difficult to cut through if you don't time align and be very sensitive with reverb

[bassmac]

Originally posted by Absolute
The days of the live Led Zep sound of Album 2 are over--and they should be (even though I love it).

It's sad to think the sound of a great drummer - in a great room is "over" - and being replaced by samples. (I must be getting very old)

Originally posted by Absolute
No one want to see the same movie over and over again

But isn't that what's happening right now? Just listen to the radio - it all sounds like the same band - in the same room.

The next band that records drums in a big room with one mic panned 100% right - I'll have to buy their CD on principal alone.

[RichT]

Probably being one of the younger members on the board and currently recording a lot of unsigned and very 'young' bands, I am definitely favouring the 'close n tight' sound on the stuff I'm doing.

I like putting a sample underneath the kick and snare to get more punch (we record a fair bit of hardcore) and besides our drum room is not perfect and the kits we record are certainly not!

This doesn't mean I don't like realism, I like a drum kit to sound like a drum kit but I have never been a fan of that Phil Collins sound or anything 'bigger' than real.

On bigger projects (i.e tracking over more than 1/2 days) I'll spend a day on drum sounds so that we don't have to resort to samples but around here that is extremely rare.

Tommorrow I'm tracking a speed punk band, all 14/15, demo on request of a London plugger who's interested in moving into management. I have no doubt there will be a lot of samples involved to achieve a current and marketable sound.

Cheers,
Rich

[Jules]

I suspect that the cream of bands out there are recording in great drum rooms and the top mixers are getting adequately recorded 'room' tracks to use if they wish but they just aint pushin up those faders much at the moment, I suspect for wholey stylistic reasons.

???

[sphereman]

Im totally in with Jules here. It seems like im the only guy here in Nashville that still uses ribbon mics out in front of the kit for a great room sound. Most of the time i use it in the mix. I Never use reverb. Some of my new clients flip when they hear real room!!

Check out out PODs latest album. Mostly the song "Set It Off" nice room there.

Mills Logan
Nashville, TN

[stealthbalance]

for me , using drum ambience or not to use is totally a stylistic thing based on the music you are doing. the more modern drum amb thing is more ala a wallace vibe - sub ring blended on a bass drum and maybe a touch of room ambience blended under the snare ( which really sounds more like a dull bottom mic on a snare drum. also to my ears , that big drum room ambience vibe sounds like the dated 80"s - it just instantly sounds like bon jovi. i have been recording a really cool band for the last couple of weeks - real drummer in a really good big studio. ive got 4 tracks recorded of ambience and it takes a lot to use them being that the drummer's cymbals are so insanely loud that ive had to d-ssss all the room mics to tape ( yes tape - you heard me correctly- im as surprised as you- no it wasn't my idea to go to tape as i hate it ). in the old days i would actually not let the drummer put up any cymbals on the kit and we would do it as an overdub so i could do anything with the ambience - yes i was a bit nuts back then. i would not want to do that to a drummer now as i feel it is insulting but i have grown to not really cre too much about ambience now. i can make it sound like bonham in the vatican if i want to but im not that into that sound anymore. for rock tracks , i like some ambience blended in and heard nicely, but not to sound like big country.
s

[Jay Kahrs]

Stylistic reasons.

Good words. Totally true.

But it has a lot less to do with mix style then modern music and drummer styles IMHO. Put a drummer taking monkey swings at the cymbals in a live, bright room and your precious room mics that made the snare & toms sound huge are gonna be totally useless. Add 50 heaping spoonfuls of compression during mixing and mastering and before you know it the sound has become a wash of high frequency ambient trash. So **** it, kill the room mics as long as it doesn't sound like an Eagles record. That may work for some people but not for me. I try to start my drum sounds with the room mics first and then build the kit from there. Depending on the player and the music it doesn't always work but when it does you can get away with a stupid amount of room tone. The only "downside" is that you end up with bigger drum tones and that's not really a modern approach to mixing. **** modern, I want good sound.

One drum sound that constantly amazes me is System of a Down's Toxicity. The drums are drier then hell but there's so much air and space around them. Whenever I pull the room mics down it doesn't sound like that, it just sounds a dead, cheap demo.

[sphereman]

Try telling the drummer not to whack the hats and cymbals so hard. Several sessions guys here are real cool with that. Also just try turning up the overheads in the headphones. Some guys will hit less and not as hard if they hear them more.

Mills Logan
Nashville, TN

[stealthbalance]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs

One drum sound that constantly amazes me is System of a Down's Toxicity. The drums are drier then hell but there's so much air and space around them. Whenever I pull the room mics down it doesn't sound like that, it just sounds a dead, cheap demo. [/B]

------------------------------------

this is not in reference to you jay , but i find that many recording engineers think that the drum sound is really impressive because they turn up the room mics. if you take away the room mice the dry drum kit should sound as good as SOAD - if not then those close mics need a lot more work. i work to make sure my drum recording sound big with or without ambience. it just takes alot more eq work.

[stealthbalance]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sphereman
[B]Try telling the drummer not to whack the hats and cymbals so hard. Several sessions guys here are real cool with that. Also just try turning up the overheads in the headphones. Some guys will hit less and not as hard if they hear them more.
--------------------
tried all that - it never is something they can do. the guys i get can barely keep the pocket swinging much less control their internal kit volumes. ive pointed out to several problematic drummers that if they set up a tape recorder about 10 or so feet in front of the drums and record there playing , they should be hearing a balanced drum kit. only the most experienced cats can do that ive found.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by stealthbalance
ive pointed out to several problematic drummers that if they set up a tape recorder about 10 or so feet in front of the drums and record there playing , they should be hearing a balanced drum kit. only the most experienced cats can do that ive found.

Big 'ol hell freakin' yeah to that one. The one thing that sometimes works is if I can get the player to swap out their normal cymbals for smaller, thinner cymbals while raising them up and away from the toms. At that point I usually end up dropping the room mics down low, maybe a foot or two off the ground or even facing them down or away from the kit in an effort to minimize the blitzkrieg of cymbals.

I agree with you, room mics should work to make a kit sound like a kit or bigger then a kit. It seems like too many times the room mics are thrown up as an afterthought and don't really fit or complement the sound of the close mics. At that point it's usually easier to toss 'em under the bus and just use the close mics.

[Jason Poulin]

what's everyone doing to their room mics?

Compression/Eq'ing?

how are you mixing them in?

I agree that they are crucial to that big ass drum sound. Everything sounds so near-miced without em.

Thanks

Jason

[patrox247]

Everythings overhyped! Too much Eq,Too much compresion,too much volume. Whats missing? two words.....HI-FI

[David Herbert]

You know what really works to get drummers to practice with a click, master dynamics, and follow requests like "don't hit the cymbals hard"? Replacing them with a session cat. You know what doesn't get them practicing? Fixing their "performance" in Pro Toolz. Not always an option of course, but...
When I think about the quality of the drummers I get to work with, guys you haven't heard of on projects that are small, and how they nail stuff consistently, and then I hear you guys working on big projects with big-name bands and you can't even get the drummers to sit in the groove... I have to think the world has gone upside down here.
Oops! I almost forget the new Golden Rule of music: Success and Talent have Not Much In Common. Or as my friend Kelly sez, "Talent is tolerated... barely". Obviously talent isn't the only part of success, and determination, self-promotion, people skills, timing, and organization all play their parts (to a click, hopefully), but isn't there a lack of talent on the radio today when compared with ten years ago, fifteen years ago, twenty years ago?
I understand that the advent of specialized markets in radio has whittled playlists down to about twenty songs per station. I understand that certain economic situations has forced big labels into unenviable positions. I understand that there are still talented people making great music, and sometimes they do receive the acclaim they deserve (Beck, Cat Power, Flaming Lips, Radiohead, The Streets, Ani Defranco). Me understanding all of the above statements doesn't, however, negate the nausea I feel when I turn on the radio. It doesn't drown out the little voice that whispers warnings of a steady loss of vivaciousness in the musical arts, a greying and sickening that extends to most walks of life and-
Huh? Did I forget to take the little blue pill again? I know I took the big white one after dinner, and the red one too...


Good music can be heard on WFMU at wfmu.org
Please pardon the rant, David

[guittarzzan]

yeah, most listeners don't care about anything except what's coming out of their speakers...until they go see them live and wonder why none of the songs sound the same as the album.
From my butt rockin glory days, the Scorpions and Rush did the best job of reproducing the album live. They both sounded amazing. ...and don't even get me started on Queensryche. Those guys were amazing live and Geoff Tate can sing like a madman.........pay attention Brittney.
I say Brit Sp on SNL trying to sing a ballad. My god. She should have lip synced it like she did the first song that night. She's eye candy with a record deal. that's about it.

ok goodnight

[Curve Dominant]

After reading this thread, I feel an irrational need to chime in with my $0.02.

I say irrational, because I fear my feedback will either 1) be completely ignored, or 2) generate some serious flamethrowing denial.

Here goes...

The game has been irrevocably changed by engineer/producer/mixers who have honed and crafted the art and science of making drums sound ultra-modern/hyper-stylized with the tools and techniques available IRT DAWs, sample-replacement/supplementation, et al.

It started when some mixer/producer type did something like this:
1) Overlayed a sampled kick to the room kit to add more "thwack" or "boom" or both to the kick,
2) Overlayed a sampled snare to add more "Pwack" to the 2 and the 4,
3) Etc, etc...
4) And eventually, over time, audiences got used to hearing THAT sound, and began to expect it.

So now, THAT sound is the status quo.

I've tried it, and it works. In fact, the ROOM sound is key. Capture some ultra-gritty room chaos, and lay those sampled hits in there to hold down the 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 ...or whatever your groove requires...Grid Mode in PT or your DAW of choice makes it happen.

For me, it's given me a whole new appreciation for the room mics. When I mic a drum set now, I want LOTSA ROOM! LOSTA AMBIENCE! Bring that room noise on wit da quickness.

Yeah, the kick and the snare will be muddy as hell. But I gots the samples from Hell to pump those beatz up with.

It's a whole new game.

[Drumsound]

I'm hearing some room sounds on "modern" recordings. There's a tune called "comfortable Liar" I think its Chavez. The interlude before the verse starts is only room sounds for the drums; it's really cool. I always record at least one room mic, usually two. I've only used artificial reverb on drums about three times in the last year and a half, may be longer. I adjust my room mics for more or less space. Of course I have had a single hit so what do I know...

[Jules]

OK...

THIS is interesting IMHO..

"but i find that many recording engineers think that the drum sound is really impressive because they turn up the room mics. if you take away the room mice the dry drum kit should sound as good as SOAD - if not then those close mics need a lot more work. i work to make sure my drum recording sound big with or without ambience. it just takes alot more eq work."

Hmmmmm.....

See, being 'old school' presently I am recording everything 'fairly flat' (OK thats fairly new for me! OK - so I DO still tweak in a bit on toms and Kick & snare..)

Er.. this isnt working, I will start again, BEING OLD (80's) SCHOOL I am used to clients and I liking a ROOMY drum sound. This is that old maxim - of 'one instrument' - an 'overall sound'.

I belive FOR CERTAIN ACTS - I need to force myself to:

1) pull down the room mic's and concentrate more carefully on the close mic's..
2) reasses mic's I am using
3) learn new techniques

I recon for your 'room sound style' recordist - this is a DEPARTURE from normal operating procedure.. It is for me anyway.

Go a little further into genres like death metal and you get all sorts of trigering techniques required to fit in with music styles...

The reason for this post is I TRIED to embark on a snapy close mic production just recently and abandoned that direction in the end.. It's all mixed (by me) and is the best thing the band have done to date but I still havent 'cracked' this snappy dry technique yet.

Also my drum room remains untreated since it's construction, while this suits my 'roomy' old techniques VERY WELL, I am looking for treatments to do to the room to facilitate both DRY & Roomy drum production. I have screens to go round the kit but I suspect I will end up making a deadened (perhaps foam) area directly above the drums as I have a LOW ceiling and (pointers please) I DO BELIVE low might be WORSE than a NO (dead) ceiling.

I can creep up on all this over time...

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
[B] Put a drummer taking monkey swings at the cymbals in a live, bright room and your precious room mics that made the snare & toms sound huge are gonna be totally useless.

Perhaps a live, bright room isn't the ideal place to record drums.

-R

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Jules
Go a little further into genres like death metal and you get all sorts of trigering techniques required to fit in with music styles...

The reason for this post is I TRIED to embark on a snapy close mic production just recently and abandoned that direction in the end..

Right, and room sounds in speed metal and similar genre's are really just the kiss of death. The key to getting the close mics to shine for a modern production are really in drum tuning and then EQ. After seeing Slipperman's unashamed use of EQ on drums first hand I started to hack and slash away at them and my close miked drum sounds got a lot better. I used to be a little scared to rip 7dB at 350-400 out of a tom. **** it. Whatever works. Just make sure you listen to what your doing and don't just EQ for the hell of it. That's a big mistake.

I've also found when mixing that if I do a drum mult with a lot of compression and do all my heavy EQ on the return I can usually leave my close mics almost untouched. I usually hack away at the mult before I add samples, EQ or compress the close mics.