Converter input lvl's -6db???

[SamSpacey]

I've recently been told that at 24bit you shouldn't really push soundacard converters over -6db on input when recording. I tried it and it does seem to hold up rather well, sounding a little less harsh.

Anyone got anymore input on this?

[jenkel16]

Originally Posted by SamSpacey

I've recently been told that at 24bit you shouldn't really push soundacard converters over -6db on input when recording. I tried it and it does seem to hold up rather well, sounding a little less harsh.

Anyone got anymore input on this?

You pushed them past -6 and they sounded less harsh or you didn't let it get past -6 and they sounded less harsh?

[kurt]

It’s your preamps that need attention. With system calibrated to 0VU = -18dbFS, when you read -6dbFS you are pushing your preamp +12db.
Some signals benefit greatly from this use of headroom. “Clean ones”, sounds cleanest without undesirable distortion when pushed so far.

Keep your recording levels at 0VU & see if you like it better.

[SamSpacey]

I'm using a presonus pre amp that can easily push out the signal to 0dbif needed, I just heard that mid range convertors like on my Audiofire12 sound better when not pushed above -6db on the input when recording.

It does sound a little bit sweeter doing this, even when not using preamp for my analog synths. The thinking was that the nearer you go toward the cards 0db clipping the harder it is to get them to sound nice, could be a load of crap, but seems to work.

With all the headroom that 24 bit gives, it shouldn't be a problem anyhow at -6db :)

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by SamSpacey

I'm using a presonus pre amp that can easily push out the signal to 0dbif needed, I just heard that mid range convertors like on my Audiofire12 sound better when not pushed above -6db on the input when recording.

It does sound a little bit sweeter doing this, even when not using preamp for my analog synths. The thinking was that the nearer you go toward the cards 0db clipping the harder it is to get them to sound nice, could be a load of crap, but seems to work.

With all the headroom that 24 bit gives, it shouldn't be a problem anyhow at -6db :)

Well, it seems like you missed the explanation somewhere... The point is that by keeping levels lower right at your conversion stage you avoid really fast digital overs that add up distortion further down the line. So if you've got some digital slips, every calculation that it goes through in dsp is more opportunity for that clip to sound like a$$. make any more sense?

[kurt]

Originally Posted by SamSpacey

It does sound a little bit sweeter doing this, even when not using preamp for my analog synths.

Are you saying that you are not using preamp when recording line signals from synths? If so that’s wrong.

You should search forums about recording level & conversion. Lots of useful info there.
Your converter describes what you put thru it. Because one can’t adjust level in AD conversion, what you hear is your preamp, (Presonus), distorting less when pushed +12db than +18db.
Let it peak at -12-6db & see if the sound gets worse?

[rems]

Originally Posted by kurt

It’s your preamps that need attention. With system calibrated to 0VU = -18dbFS, when you read -6dbFS you are pushing your preamp +12db.
Some signals benefit greatly from this use of headroom. “Clean ones”, sounds cleanest without undesirable distortion when pushed so far.

Keep your recording levels at 0VU & see if you like it better.

Can you give a bit more info on this? For example, are you saying that clean signals (ac guitars, etc) might sound better when closer to 0db on the pre? Grittier sounds are achieved at higer db's?

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by kurt

Are you saying that you are not using preamp when recording line signals from synths? If so that’s wrong.

You should search forums about recording level & conversion. Lots of useful info there.
Your converter describes what you put thru it. Because one can’t adjust level in AD conversion, what you hear is your preamp, (Presonus), distorting less when pushed +12db than +18db.
Let it peak at -12-6db & see if the sound gets worse?

huh? hang on. You don't need a preamp for a line level source if you have line inputs on your converters... so it depends on they keyboard I would think... and to imply that converters don't clip is misleading. hit your interface really hard and take a look at the waveform. Preamp overdrive can sound good. Clipped-conversion sounds aweful -- like paris hiltons' album aweful.

[kurt]

Originally Posted by kurt
It’s your preamps that need attention. With system calibrated to 0VU = -18dbFS, when you read -6dbFS you are pushing your preamp +12db.
Some signals benefit greatly from this use of headroom. “Clean ones”, sounds cleanest without undesirable distortion when pushed so far.

Keep your recording levels at 0VU & see if you like it better.

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

huh? hang on. You don't need a preamp for a line level source if you have line inputs on your converters... so it depends on they keyboard I would think... and to imply that converters don't clip is misleading. hit your interface really hard and take a look at the waveform. Preamp overdrive can sound good. Clipped-conversion sounds aweful -- like paris hiltons' album aweful.

huh?
Of course you can use built-in passive preamp stage in your converter amplifying line level sources (Synth). Yes, you are controlling gain with Synth volume contr.
But if you are in serious recording business you will never omit quality & “color” possibilities patching delicate sounds thru at least one tranny in a good DI.

Where in the earth do I “imply”? that converters doesn't clip?
All I’m saying is: Your converter is a passive device like Photo camera.
It describes what you are exposing it at: to too much or too little light, bad focus etc. etc. You get an editable picture.

The quality, your sound, is made before that, (conversion), so if your only criteria are hitting 0dbFS without overs, you are listening with eyes, not ears.

[SamSpacey]

I put say my CS-30 through my Presonus as it just sounds a bit nicer going through that. My statement about not using the preamp and it sounded better below -6db as well was purley to say that it sounded nicer at -6db with or without a preamp.

Maybe it is digital clipping although I'm pretty anal about that when checking waveforms after recording...if clipped I re-record. I'm sure with a $5000 soundcard the -6db thing for me wouldn't be an issue.... but the Audifire12 seems to soundmore like the origianal sound when I'm around -6db record input.

The quality, your sound, is made before that, (conversion), so if your only criteria are hitting 0dbFS without overs, you are listening with eyes, not ears.

Pretty sure I'm trusting my ears not my eyes... been in this business far too long to be falling for those mistakes. But I have heard that when midrange and below cards reach nearer the 0db mark on the a/d convertors...they have a harder job of rendering the input signal as when they do when they do at slightly lower levels. I can see the logic in that. And it really doesn't matter as losing 1bit of dynamic from an analog synth is never ever going to be noticed as 23 bits or whatever it is at -6db is surely enough.