Anyone else thinks ebay feedback "trades" are b*llshit?

[peeceebee]

It seems to be the norm on ebay for sellers to withold feedback to buyers until after the buyer leaves them positive feedback.
Do we live in a sucky, dishonorable society, or what? (Duh...)
As a buyer, If I win an item, pay promptly and corteously, I'VE done my end of the deal perfectly, and OUGHT to be awarded positive feedback immediately. This "feedback blackmail" that seems to by & large be the norm is to me a sign of how f*cked our society has become...

(Sorry for the rant, guess I should take my meds now...)

[jabney]

I respectfully disagree.

As a (reluctant) seller on eBay, I know the power is almost completely in the hands of the buyer. And until I get the feedback from the buyer, I have no way of knowing whether my buyer was happy or not. I may not like having to sell my gear on eBay, (I''m a non-playing lyricist, so obviously there's not a lot of money for my sort), but I want every customer of mine to be delighted. In fact, thinking of each sale as a mini-Christmas for my customers is what allows me to sell off my equipment without becoming too morose. Avoiding negative feedback is critical as a seller. As a buyer, much less so.

best,

john

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by peeceebee

Do we live in a sucky, dishonorable society, or what? (Duh...)

Mostly, but not always.

Just protect yourself and be smart, and you'll be okay.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by peeceebee

It seems to be the norm on ebay for sellers to withold feedback to buyers until after the buyer leaves them positive feedback.

This is something like "feedback extortion" and is expressly forbidden according to Ebay's terms of use.

A seller's account can be suspended and even terminated for this.

And it renders Ebay feedback worthless. If a seller engages in such practice, all you can know about that seller from looking at their feedback is that they've withheld positive feedback and threatened negative feedback from whatever percent of buyers.

When a seller does this to me, I forward the message to Ebay.
It's crap. Don't do it and don't go along with it.

I figure that if a seller can't work with Ebay's rules, they don't need to be selling stuff on Ebay. Period.

[everybody's x]

If I sell something on ebay, I want to know the buyer is happy with it, if they arent I want to fix it. If I get a negative when no problem was ever communicated and my feedback drops below 98% I am screwed. so, yeah I dont leave feedback until I hear from you. I always leave feedback after I do, always. I dont leave retaliatory feedback and I dont threaten anyone. I just line out in the terms of the sale that I appreciate feedback and if anything is wrong to please get in touch with me and I will fix it. And I WILL. Is that unfair or uncool? IMHO the sale doesn't end for the buyer the second he pays, some of them can be a huge pain in the ass, cant read, buyers remorse is a bitch, the only way I can somehow protect myself is to hold out until I know they are happy.

Here's an example, I sell something to someone in canada, hes practically in the north friggin pole. He chooses the cheapest shipping he can get, the post office tells me that it will take 6 weeks for it to arrive to him which I communicated to the buyer. He says that's fine. I take the package to the post office within an hour of him paying for the auction.
3 weeks go by and he still hasnt received his package, starts getting ancy, maybe found the same item for $3 less or whatever. Decides to file a negative against me AND report me to ebay for not shipping his item.

Now I am Fu**d, did nothing wrong at all and have zero recourse because I was nice enough to leave him good feedback immediately after the sale.

well EFF THAT, never again, tell me you got it, you like it and we are cool and I will be the positive feedbackinest dude on the planet, until then mums the word.
And you are right it is indicative of the world we live in, but the feedback system is for us too, and I also have an obligation to the other sellers to let them know, "yeah, this guy paid immediately, but I had 45 wallpaper sized pictures of the guitar listed and the dude left me a negative because he says he didn't know the guitar was brown, called me every day for a month bitching about it, tee-peed my house and kicked my dog, BUT HE PAID IMMEDIATELY!"

The feedback system is our only outlet we have to be able to tell other people AVOID THIS NUTBAG, IT AINT WORTH IT

It's a BIG market out there 20 something million members I think? That's a lot of weirdos, people that CAN'T be satisfied and a whole lot of well meaning honest people who just do the right thing. I can't know which one you are until I close the deal by hearing from you. If I screwed up and deserve a negative then that's the way it goes, but I am not going to leave myself wide open.

Sometimes we do things the way we do because we got hosed before (I could tell you a hundred more of these stories), makes you gun-shy. I am open-minded, so if you think I am wrong then let me hear it, but I cant think of any other way to protect myself as a seller.

[rufus13]

I wait a while (30 days+) to post positive (or other kinds) of feedback to folks who buy from me. I've had people who seem like flakes come through a week or so late. Sometimes their fault, but if the deal happens anyway, they will get good feedback with details. If they pay and are happy with the delivery and item, I am happy. Delay is not extortion.

I am not worried about negative feedback from maniacs. It's so obvious when you have a steady record over 7 years as a good seller and they are flying a new-zero (0) account. Sure, if you get a few negatives in a month, it's not good, but a sporadic whacko? No problem.

As a buyer, I suspect sellers who are 100% over several years. No crazy unsatisfiable people ever win your auction? Are all of your buyers shills to build the feedback?

I also suspect sellers who never buy.

E-bay has made me suspicious of everyone, everywhere, but I will still sell you stuff, and buy your stuff.

Karl

[SnakeCained]

Originally Posted by peeceebee

Do we live in a sucky, dishonorable society, or what? (Duh...)

I think is something that has filtered down from the top.

Thanks George and Tony

[DarkSky]

Originally Posted by max cooper

This is something like "feedback extortion" and is expressly forbidden according to Ebay's terms of use.

Yes, but it is nevertheless the norm, as peeceebee says. I've had five years or so on eBay and in that time the number of sellers who've posted feedback on receipt of payment has been very few. Certainly less than 10%.

Originally Posted by max cooper

A seller's account can be suspended and even terminated for this... ...When a seller does this to me, I forward the message to Ebay...

I've done this too. But what eBay did about it was absolutely nothing on each occasion.

In the worst instance, I left neg f'back (after waiting six weeks for an item, only to discover that the seller had never had the item to sell, but was running a rort where after receiving my money they started shopping around to try and purchase the item at a cheaper price to send to me - running auctions for items you don't have is *also* a breacch of eBay 'rules'). Within minutes of my feedback the seller posted reciprocal negative feedback on my accout AND simultaneously sent an offer for mutual withdrawal of feedback. Blatant coercion. I reported it (twice) but *nothing* happened. The seller is still selling and has since done the same thing to a number of other buyers, several of whom have also reported it (I know because they wrote to me about it).

eBay's 'rules', AFAICT are for form's sake only - they have no interest in enforcing them.

Consequently, feedback is not as usesful as it could (and should) be - and is also largely there for form's sake. It's unfortunate, but I think peeceebee's rant is justified.

[peeceebee]

I didn't mean to be critical of sellers alone- I was more seeing this practice as a symptom of how dishonorable (many) people are these days accross the board, as an indictment of our general societal values. (INDEED from the top down...)

I'm mostly a buyer (equipped my studio ALMOST exclusively on ebay!- THERE'S the Gear tyein for this thread!), and I always give fair, accurate feedback, FORGIVING for real-world snafus, etc. I communicate with my sellers with any concerns. One entire studio later, I've had NO bad deals, and left no bad feedback.

BUT the sad fact that people who are both buyers & sellers are being assh*les in such numbers and that we have to protect ourselves from these "unfortunate lesser lifeforms" to such an extent is to my pessimistic heart a sign of these degenerate times we live in... Everyone out for themselves, screw the other guy before he screws you, the only thing that matters is what I can get out of the situation, etc....

Kinda makes my black heart long for the days when people carried swords or guns, and dishonor could have repercussions...

(Ok, the nice men in the white uniforms are here to take me back to my room now, no more computer time...)

[pulse_divider]

I don't see how this practice is extortion, dishonesty, or anything like that.

When I sell stuff on Ebay, I tell the buyer upon shipment to "let me know when you receive the item and test it and I'll leave feedback once I hear you are satisfied with the transaction". As far as I'm concerned, this is when the transaction is complete for both sides. It's not over as soon as they pay you.

[Radioking]

As a buyer, I suspect sellers who are 100% over several years. No crazy unsatisfiable people ever win your auction? Are all of your buyers shills to build the feedback?

I also suspect sellers who never buy.

E-bay has made me suspicious of everyone, everywhere, but I will still sell you stuff, and buy your stuff.

Karl[/quote]

Not wanting to stray too far of topic but the issue of shill bidding is also a concern. One ebayer who trades audio gear, shill bid me out of a good price on a piece of gear I was interested in buying. When I examined his past trades, he appeared to be running perhaps 50 ebay identities. All the auctions had bids from 0 feedbackers and when one of these accidently won an auction they never left feedback. In fact, one won the same item on two consecutive auctions. When I challenged him about the trade, I was subjected to a torrent of abuse and threats (we know where you live etc). I reported him to Ebay at this point, who of course did nothing and he is still trading with approaching 500 positive feedbacks. i accept that a certain amount of shill bidding will always exist as long as the insertion fees are so high but I just thought this guy was taking the piss.

Now, I always check the auction for shill bids and tend to stay away from anything I think is suspicious (I use the shill bid utility at the auctionpix website).

Back on topic, I always leave feedback when I am satisfied the the deal is good and everyone is happy. As A buyer I am happy to leave feedback as soon as I have received the item and it is as described.

http://www.myspace.com/pressplaystudios

[wyomingbound]

Originally Posted by peeceebee

I'm mostly a buyer (equipped my studio ALMOST exclusively on ebay!- THERE'S the Gear tyein for this thread!), and I always give fair, accurate feedback, FORGIVING for real-world snafus, etc. I communicate with my sellers with any concerns. One entire studio later, I've had NO bad deals, and left no bad feedback.

If you're mostly a BUYER, then I'm confused as to why feedback is important to you.

I have two EBAY accounts: one for selling, and a separate one for buying. On the seller account, I care about building up positive feedback (of course). But the buying account, it doesn't matter who leaves feedback---I don't bother to keep track of it.

If you have more than 1 positive feedback, that should be more than enough for 99.9999% of sellers to accept your bids. Unless I'm missing something....

[thejook]

Originally Posted by pulse_divider

I don't see how this practice is extortion, dishonesty, or anything like that.

When I sell stuff on Ebay, I tell the buyer upon shipment to "let me know when you receive the item and test it and I'll leave feedback once I hear you are satisfied with the transaction". As far as I'm concerned, this is when the transaction is complete for both sides. It's not over as soon as they pay you.

Yup, I agree. At this point the buyer can essentially steal the item from you, claiming he 'never received it,' filing a complaint with PayPal and -zing- money gone. And your item is gone! Yikes!

[djwayne]

I always post feedback immediately, so far it's been all positive, no problems to report.

Shilling is just plain dumb. Post a a fair "Buy It Now" price, and things will sell, when the right buyer comes along, ya don't have to wait 10 days. Some sellers think that a ten day auction will get them more money, but as a buyer, I'd prefer to buy it now at a fair price, and most times would pass on an item if I had to wait ten days to see if I won it.

[roxxon]

The best way to do business on Ebay is to leave feeback after the deal is done...
I mean completed for both parties.
The Buyer and the Seller.

I have taken a couple of handfuls of crap doing Ebay deals.

But I have only dealt with 1 completely unscrupulous seller.
Never deal with these dishonest bastards.
I can't be;lieve that they don't have more negative feedback on their Ebay seller account...

http://stores.ebay.com/GATTI-JEWELERS

They charged me $90.00 US to ship an item woth $40.00 US.

I foolishly left them good feedback before I viewed my PayPal account.
I made the mistake of paying all the sellers that I owed money at one time.
I should have paid more attention.

I wrote the guy and explained to him that they had massively over-charged me for shipping.The item was shipped to me in Canada via USPS air-mail.
On the package the price for postage was listed as only $20.00 US.
So I asked him for a refund of $70.00 US. I believe he was thinking about giving it to me...Then his bitch wife gets involved.
She offers me a $35 US refund.
We got into a bitter e-mail battle.

Some very harsh words were exchanged by both parties.
She tries to tell me that putting a one piece rack into a cardboard box...with a few foam chips...Is worth an extra $70.00 handling fee!

I freaked on her.
I told her that she could shove her half-ass refund, "where the sun don't shine."

I learned my lesson that day on Ebay.
Wait until the transaction is completed to the satisfaction of BOTH parties before leaving feedback.

I also will never pay all my outstanding Ebay bills via PayPal without looking at the shipping prices very carefully, ever again.

I have made over a couple of hundred successful Ebay buys over the past year.
Most of the seelers a cool people...
But the bad ones, really suck.

[danasti]

Originally Posted by peeceebee

It seems to be the norm on ebay for sellers to withold feedback to buyers until after the buyer leaves them positive feedback.
Do we live in a sucky, dishonorable society, or what? (Duh...)
As a buyer, If I win an item, pay promptly and corteously, I'VE done my end of the deal perfectly, and OUGHT to be awarded positive feedback immediately. This "feedback blackmail" that seems to by & large be the norm is to me a sign of how f*cked our society has become...

(Sorry for the rant, guess I should take my meds now...)

As long as they did their part would it kill you to leave them positive feedback?

I don't know but everything seems to work pretty well for me on Ebay, especially with feedback and I've sold and bought many items.

I don't find we live in a dishonorable society. I find scams and jerks to be the exception rather than the rule and that is by a HUGE margin, at least for me.

MY $ 0.02

[Psyko/Acoustics]

Move this to "Moan Zone"...


BTW: Yeah, Ebay sucks. Sometimes it's really sucky. We all know "Evilbay" for what it is.


Caveat Emptor.

[ToddF]

I think the Ebay feedback system overall works well. I think it is ok to wait to leave feedback until the buyer get's their item and responds that they are satisfied. To me that is the point of feedback system.

Yes there are issues here and there but overall I have seen that most people are honest. You just need to follow the rules and make sure you pay and are paid with protected funds.

Be wary of anything suspicious. When in doubt call the buyer or seller and talk to them in person. You can get their contact info through Ebay if you are bidding or selling on an auction.

I have had a few scammers leave me bad feedback after I left it to them but their accounts were canceled and it is obvious they had issues.

Todd F.

[Sounds Great]

Here we go again.

Ebay doesn't suck. It is just that it is so huge you are going to see a lot of everything.

Nobody ever talks about the 99.9% of the deals that go through with no problems. All the discussion is about the other .1%, and people are left with an impression of Ebay based on those problem transactions because of such discussion.

I agree about the problems with the feedback. I have complained about the sellers withholding feedback (YES, the buyer has completed his part once he paid) on Ebay discussion forums, it is a hot topic over there and it seems half the people agree and half don't. But Ebay does NOT punish anyone for withholding feedback or not using it at all. It is optional.

[Psyko/Acoustics]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Here we go again.

Ebay doesn't suck. It is just that it is so huge you are going to see a lot of everything.

Nobody ever talks about the 99.9% of the deals that go through with no problems. All the discussion is about the other .1%, and people are left with an impression of Ebay based on those problem transactions because of such discussion.

I agree about the problems with the feedback. I have complained about the sellers withholding feedback (YES, the buyer has completed his part once he paid) on Ebay discussion forums, it is a hot topic over there and it seems half the people agree and half don't. But Ebay does NOT punish anyone for withholding feedback or not using it at all. It is optional.

Point taken...

[T_R_S]

I have a funny ebay transaction about 4 years ago, I sold an item, The buyer even happened to be local. He came and inspected the items and bought them. I posted positive feedback. A full 2 months later the buyer complained about the item. He then left negative feedback, he never emailed me about refund or anything just left a negative. I think that's a little lame, if you decide 2 months later you don't like the item then bitch in public with even one email to the seller.
Those users are the ones that spoil it for a lot of people. That's what the bid blockers list is for.
But I agree with the above stament 99.9% are problems free, but that .1% that complain about every little thing really wreck it for a lot pf people. The feedback system may not be perfect but then what system is perfect.
When Digibid.com was around people complained about that system too. Which IMO was way safer than any eBay trade ever for high value items.

[warhead]

I think we've received 2 negative feedbacks total on eBay. The first one was a guy whom we sent a pair of headphones brand new in the box and they didn't work right. We immediately sent out a pair to replace them, so he gave us a negative feedback in return (after we had issued a positive first of course).

The second was quite recent, we shipped a pair of monitors out to a guy who received them and then reported one being damaged / not working. The guy essentially contacts us with the attitude of "hey assholes, what are you going to do about it" when all we've done is shipped a brand new packaged item to him. Not "please help me" etc, but just being rude and arrogant in all of his contacts as if we're out to cause him harm. The manufacturer was fresh out of stock on this item also but of course offered to repair it. He sent the items back to THEM and expected us to just give him back all his money when we didn't even know what was going on or had no way to confirm anything on our end. So now all we have is a negative and a comment about how we won't refund his money on a broken item. Well, there's a lot more story behind that one but no chance for us to tell it.

It's a two way street, either party could screw the other and guys like these 2 make it awful hard to want to pull the trigger first. eBay friggin' sucks, they have figured out how, like the credit card companies, to take a piece of all the world's action. Unfortunately, there are certain every day items we stock and sell that people just buy on eBay rather than search elsewhere. There's a whole community of folks who seem to only buy stuff on eBay and their crazy feedback system may be part of the reason? Maybe that's "proof" to them that overall a seller must be decent.

Let's face it, when somebody has hundreds or in some cases thousands of bits of feedback and in the 98% + category, it's likely an accurate account of their dealings having little to do with holding back on feedback but more to do with how they completed their share of the transaction.

War

[djwayne]

Well, what's good about E-Bay is that there is a very large pool of buyers and sellers there, meaning you can find hard to find items that your local dealers simply don't stock, and you can sell items to people all over the country, instead of just someone local. There may not be anyone local who is interested in your item. So hard to sell items can be sold faster, and hard to find items, can be found faster.

And every once in awhile, you get a great deal on something, that makes it all fun.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Radioking

As a buyer, I suspect sellers who are 100% over several years. No crazy unsatisfiable people ever win your auction? Are all of your buyers shills to build the feedback?

Hi

Don't you think that a little unfair?

You should concern yourself less with just numbers anyway and read the comments.

If someone has 100% positive feedback and great comments, it shows that the seller is really trying to do good and honourable business.

Has the world grown so cynical that one suspects this untrue?

Also, the number of sales or purchases, if from one supplier, count as one feedback. I have a lot more purchases/sales than reported because I have favourite sellers I buy from. Despite all those great purchases, it only shows as a single positive feedback.

[GTR]

Some sellers, if they receive anything other than a positive will reply back with a negative.

There is a seller called offtimespast who responds with a negative if they receive a neutral feedback. This really ticks me off because I paid the day of the auction and they pissed around and finally got around to shiping it out.

I noticed this trend for all of their neutral feedback left to them, and of course I left positive feedback. The f-ers.

- G

[Radioking]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

Don't you think that a little unfair?

You should concern yourself less with just numbers anyway and read the comments.

If someone has 100% positive feedback and great comments, it shows that the seller is really trying to do good and honourable business.

Has the world grown so cynical that one suspects this untrue?

Also, the number of sales or purchases, if from one supplier, count as one feedback. I have a lot more purchases/sales than reported because I have favourite sellers I buy from. Despite all those great purchases, it only shows as a single positive feedback.

Sorry Geoff but that was a quote from Rufus 13 and not me. It just appears wrong on the page (my mistake---damn html)

I do agree with Rufus to a certain extent, Sooner or later some nutter is going to wreck the perfect feedback record of even the most forgiving ebay trader (check Warrens post above).