Need help choosing gear for new studio (ground-up construction)

[Jschulze]

Hi,

Been reading here for a while now and figured it's about time to start asking some questions.

Anyway, here's the deal. Next summer I'm building a studio from the ground up. Completly blank slate, no pre-existing building and all new gear. It's getting built at the same time as a new house (seperate building about 20 yards away). This isn't going to be a commercial studio whatsoever, so no concerns about a business plan or making money. Pretty much just going to be used for me and friends. Not saying that other bands won't be recording occasionally, but that's definatly not the main objective here.

Not totally sure about dimensions and all of the construction details yet, I'll be working with a consultant soon for that stuff...any recomendations on who?.

Rough details are there'll be one decent sized live room big enough for a whole band/rehersals, a smaller iso room big enough for a drum kit, small iso booth for vocals and whatnot, lounge, kitchen, bathroom, and of course a control room.

Anyway I've been trying to workout what gear to fill this new place with. There's not really a bugdet set in stone, but it's not unlimited. No largeframe consoles or anything going in. Right now the gear I have listed below comes to right around $150K. At least initially this seems to be a pretty decent target, though if it needs to be more it can be. In the future I'm sure it'll start to grow.

It'll mostly get used for heavyish music, metal, hardcore, and the sort, but it'd be nice to have a little diversity. Blues and reggae will surely be happening and it'd be nice to be able to cover most anything I wanted.

Here's what I've been looking at as far as gear, some of the choices are based on first hand experience, some based on what I've read here, some look nice, some just seem standard for any studio. Nothing's 100% set in stone here, except may be the HD3 and Mac. I think the biggest things I'm worried about is the SSL Xrack systems and the Tonelux rig. That's 8 channels of the same compression and 2 setups of 8 channels of the same eq. I'm worried that if I don't like any of these I'm stuck with a whole bunch of em. I don't really have anyway to demo these units either. The monitor section is kinda boggling me also, don't have first hand with either of these, but most people have good things to say about them.

Any comments/additions/subtractions/substitutions/rants would be greatly appreciated. This is definatly a once in a lifetime thing here and want to make sure I'm doing it right. I do think that the mic list needs to grow a bit, so you can start there.

DAW
G5 Mac
Digidesign HD3
Apogee AD16X
Apogee DA16X x 2
Apogee X-HD Card x 3
SPL Mixdream x 2
Digidesign Control24

Mic Pres
A Designs Pacifica
Chandler TG-2
GML 8304
Avalon AD2022
Tonelux MP1 x 2

OSA Power Rack w/ the following
Shadow Hills MONO GAMA x 2
API 512 x 2
A Designs EM Blue x 2
Brent Averill 312A x 2

Dynamics
API 2500
Alan Smart C2
Empirical Labs Distressor EL8X x 2
Empirical Labs Fatso Jr.
SSL Xlogic Xrack 8 dynamics units
Chandler TG-1

Eq's
Crane Song IBIS
Great River EQ-2NV
Manel Massive Passive
SSL Xlogic Xrack 8 eq units
Tonelux EQ4P x 8 (in rack with MP1 Pre's)

Mic's
AKG C414 B-XL II/ST stereo pair
Neumann U87AI/SET Z
DPA 3530-A stereo pair of 4006
Earthworks SR30MP stereo pair
AKG D122 x 2
Sennheiser MD421II x 4
EV RE20 x 2
Shure SM57 x 6
Shure SM58 x 2
Shure SM7B

Monitors
Adams S3A
Adams Sub-12
Grace Design M904B
Dynaudio M3A

[audiothings]

Originally Posted by Jschulze

Mic's
AKG C414 B-XL II/ST stereo pair
Neumann U87AI/SET Z
DPA 3530-A stereo pair of 4006
Earthworks SR30MP stereo pair
AKG D122 x 2
Sennheiser MD421II x 4
EV RE20 x 2
Shure SM57 x 6
Shure SM58 x 2
Shure SM7B

Monitors
Adams S3A
Adams Sub-12
Grace Design M904B
Dynaudio M3A

sounds great!


what are you going to do about individual monitoring for the artistes? A console is the most hands on and hassle free solution. A yammy dm2000 instead of the control 24 will be flexible and versatile and very hands on. And the control24 is beginning to look very "low end" these days.

imho

microphone choice is a bit middle of the road. Not much character in there... the first piece of technology in your chain. Think... like a brauner khe or a manley gold or a soundelux... and consider dropping the unnecessarily expensive and harsh as hell u87ai. An sm58 has no use for me in the studio... but its pocket change in the light of your budget. And i would go with the 414xls and not xl2... xl2 in my experience is not a nice kind of bright... xls is very versatile. Consider 3 x audix i5 and 3 x sm57 instead of 6 x sm57.

about monitors... if it were my money, i'd do s3a for all purposes and a jbl lsr 6332 + 2 subs for listening loud. 'twill save you a bunch of cash. (the dyns are about 11K without amps)

.02,

[Jschulze]

Thanks for the reply...these are kinds of comments I need.

I took a look at the JBL monitors and they look like they'll fit the bill. I was really just looking at the Dynaudio ones for a larger tracking mointors, but for $10K less I think the JBL's will do just fine.

What Soundelux or Manley mics would you suggest?

Thank, Jordan

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Jschulze

This is definatly a once in a lifetime thing here and want to make sure I'm doing it right.

If you have to ask you can be sure you'll make changes later. That's otally normal.

Originally Posted by Jschulze

What Soundelux or Manley mics would you suggest?

Korby KAT4



Ribbons for guitars and drums. AEA R92 and R88.

2 RE20's seems unnecessary... you dont need pairs of mics in most cases. AKG 122? You mean D112? That's a live mic IMO. Use a D12, Beyer M88 or Audix D6.

Every studio needs a Purple MC76/77 or an 1176 of some kind ... and tracking comp like a TT CL-1b and/or a Requisite L2M.

Barefoot MM27s and a B pair of Auratones/NS-10s or some other cheapy midrange/fullrange monitor is preferable to the Adams rig and the M3s. No sub needed, less money, just better and easier. If you room is huge than the MM12s over the M3s still.

[NathanEldred]

Just my 2 cents: You could do a lot better in the general quality of the microphone selection, and there is about a 60% overlap/redundency in your mic preamp selection (you need more variety IMHO).

[amost]

You're my hero dewd.

[DirkB]

I'd start differently:

2 BAE 11 space racks.
16 312 preamps and a couple os API eq's.
2 Distressors
2 purple audio 1176's
Drawmer 1968ME
Buzz audio SOC 1.1
Perhaps a couple more eq units.

Whatever daw you prefer, including AD/DA you prefer.

A nice analogue console to have as the centre piece to work on.

Especially if it is not a business situation, man get a nice console and really "play studio".
You can buy a new 36 or 48 channel Audient ASP8024 with controller in the centersection for example, which will easily fit your budget.

Good luck,
Dirk

[Jschulze]

thanks for the replies...

For the past couple days I've been looking into either an AWS900+ or a Tonelux shadowmix rig. Budget jumped up a lil in the past few days also. Looking at $500K for gear and building. Probably $200K-$225K for gear and $275K-$300K for the building. The gear budget includes wiring and some instruments and amps.

[tomdarude]

...then I´d also recommend a fullblown TONELUX rig....like 48ch. in a frame with faders etc. and 4 or 8 pre´s.


tracking/mixing 1ch. comps was already mentioned:
at least 2 distressors
2 purple/1176
2 trakkers
1 Cl1b

and MICS:

I´d at least get some really good LDCs for vocals, room, big OH´s
and in your budget I´d consider a Wunder CM7 (vox etc.) and a pair of CM12s (OH, vox etc)

a long with a couple of nice ribbons, as already suggested, AEAs & royers e.g.
sometimes the ribbons kill on guitars, cabinets, even vox...this "royer121 on guitar" is no internet-hype bs......try it....they make a difference (don´t forget an IPB or 2)

for SDCs add a pair of gefell M300´s (lovely mics...sometimes even on vox)

pre´s: (so subjective)

Wunder PaFour
Wunder PEQ1

SH Gama 8

Chandler TG2
Chandler Channel
Chandler Germ

Pacifica

GT Vipre

1 or 2 GML or Buzz for clean (skip the 2022)
Martech MSS10 (as option for vox...can save your ass)

sounds alot...but gets alot covered from flavored to clean from apish to neveish to 60ish to whatever...



where are you located ?? cheers tom

[robmix]

That's a great list. Even if you didn't change one thing you'd still have a nicer studio than most of the people here. Someone already mentioined the need for a headphone system, I'd go with the Aviom. 16 channel system, easliy wired with CAT5. Also, as was already mentioned, you probably won't need a pair of RE-20's and a pair of D112's. So get one of each and then check out the Heil mics (PR-40 and PR-30). Like everyone else I'd add some ribbons - AEA, Royer, Coles, all the usual suspects.

If I were doing this in one big shot I wouldn't piece meal the mic pre/EQ thing. I go right for a sidecar or full blown console - Daking, Wunder or Tonelux. You'd probably be able to blow off some of those outboard EQ's and mic pre's, and having everything integrated will increase your workflow. Good luck, that sounds like fun.

[Jschulze]

Thanks for the replies...I'm getting a better idea on what I need everyday...my biggest concern now is choosing a console.

I went and demoed the SSL AWS900+ yesterday and was impressed with it's DAW control. I also talked with Paul (I think) from Tonelux today and got a little bit better understanding on the shadow mix system. The other option would be an Icon with 32 channels of summing, but I don't see myself going this route.

The advantages I see of the SSL is 24 mic pres/eq's (quality asside), nice all in one type of solution, analog mixing/feel, nice daw control, nice automation. But it would be eating a large chunch of my budget and leaving me with a lot less goodies to play with and less pre/eq choices. Stuck with "SSL" sound, may be an advantage, may not be. I'm mainly going to be doing heavier rock/metal stuff.

The biggest advantage of the tonelux is probably the sound. Haven't heard one in person, but I don't hear anyone complaining. Also I could have a lot more variety and just pick and choose what I want. The only downside I can see is lack of overall DAW control. It'll also probably keep it's value alot more than the SSL.

Another totally different option would be to try to find a used SSL 4K series.

Choices, choices, choices...I"m only in the planning stages and my hair is starting to go grey.

jordan

[Jschulze]

Oh...and for everyone hating on the two D112's and two RE20's.

First of all they're fairly cheap in comparison to other mics. Secondly there's a good chance I'll end up recording a drum kit with double kick drums. Just wanted to justify it a lil' bit.

Any way here's a new list I came up with. This comes out to $234K give or take a little. I'm probably gonna do the same in the next few days for both an SSL setup and an Icon setup.

DAW System
Quad G5 Mac x1
ViewsonicVX2025 x2
Digidesign HD3 x1
Apogee AD16X x1
Apogee DA16X x2
Apogee X-HD Card x3


Tonelux Rig
TX-Frack Fader Rack x2
TX-Vrack Rack x2
TX-PSU Power Supply x3
TX-MX2 Input Module x32
TX-MDF4 4 Faders x4
TX-MFD4-EX 4 Faders x4
TX-SM2 Summing Module x1
TX-FX2 FX-Returns x4
TX-MP1 Mic Pre x8
TX-EQ4P Eq x24


Mic Pres
A Designs Pacifica x1
Neve 1073 DPA x1
Chandler Germainium x2
API3124+ x1
Tonelux MP1 x8

Comps
API 2500 x1
Alan Smart C2 x1
Empirical Labs Distressor EL8X x4
Empirical Labs Fatso Jr. x1
Buzz Audio SOC 1.1 x1
Purple Audio MC77 x2
Drawmer 1968ME x1
Chandler TG-1 x1
Crane Song Tracker x2
DW Fearn DT-7 x1

Eq's
Crane Song IBIS x1
Great River EQ-2NV x1
Manley Massive Passive x1
Tonelux EQ4P x24

Mic's
AKG C414 B-XLS /ST x1
Soundelux E47 x1
Korby Kat 4 x1
Wunder Audio CM7 x1
DPA 3530-A x1
Earthworks SR30MP x1
AKG D122 x2
Sennheiser MD421II x4
EV RE20 x2
Royer R-121 x1
Audix I-5 x2
Audix D-6 x2
Shure SM57 x6
Shure SM58 x1
Shure SM7B x1

Monitors
Adams S3A x1
Grace Design M904B x1
JBL LSR 6332 L/R x2
JBL LSR 6312 SP x2


Other Stuff
Alesis Masterlink x1
Radial JD7 x1
Monster Power Center Pro 2500 x4
Big Boom Stand x4
Smaller Boom Stand x4
Plain Ol' Stand x4
Lil' Baby Boom Stand x4
Beyer DT770 M Headphones x1
Sony MDR-7506 Headphones x4
Samson S Phone x4
Ebtech Swizz Army Cable Tester x1
Shur PS-6 Pop Filter x1
E47 Shockmount x1
Royer Shockmount x1
RE20 Shockmount x1
Universal Shockmount x4
MD421 Shockmount x4
Tascam CD-160 x1
Galaxy CM-140 SPL Meter x1


Intruments
Drums (Noble & Cooley) x1
Roland TD-20 x1
Peavey 6505+ x1
Marshall 1960B Straight Cab x2
Some Other Head x1
Vox AC30 x1
Orange AD30 Head x1
Orange Cab 4 x 12 x1
Mesa Dual Rec Head x1
Mesa Oversized Cab x1
Ampeg SVT Classic x1
Ampeg SVT 8 x 10 x1
Sansamp Rackmount x1
Korg DTR2000 Tuner x1
Les Paul Standard x1
Fender 62 Tele x1
Martin D16 Acoustic x1
Fender Deluxe P Bass x1
Ernie Ball Stingray x1


p.s. tomdarude...I played a show at the underground in cologne a few months back. it's a small world

[nathanvacha]

well, I don't think I saw a pair of anything in your updated list that you could use for overheads... I think a pair of sdc's like km84's or something that will work for that metal overhead sounds is more concerning than double kick, y'naw'mean? just something to consider...

[Jschulze]

the dpa's are a stereo pair (omni), so are the earthworks(cardioid), and also the 414's

...i talked to the guy at GC today and he said he'd throw in a xlogic rack full of ssl compressors...why does this have to be so hard...

[drBill]

Forget the newer 414's and get a used pair of B-ULS's and send them to Jim Williams to have him mod them. They will cost less and be waaaay better.

You're going to want 2 Royer 121's for room mics. ;-)

I think you need a pair of KM84's in there.

It sounds like you have money to burn, but I'd start off a little slower with all the hi end outboard. You WILL run into a lot of very expensive surprises in this project.

You absolutely need to get the building right or you'll be having a load of great equipment with lousy acoustics and terrible room mode problems. Long after the gear is broken or worthless or replaced by the latest greatest, you'll still have the room so do it right the first time and you'll be much happier. Even if it means no outboard mic pres or other fun goodies.

If money means anything to you, please take me very seriously on this : After you have a final contract with your contractor, after he understands 100% exactly what the constraints of building a studio are all about - ie: weird angles, finish work being 400% more time consuming than a normal house, sawing concrete, having walls that are not coupled to each other, etc, etc. After he's talked to your studio designer and understands everything. After he's given you a firm cast in stone price. THEN, take that price, add a minimum of 30-40% on top and that's what it's going to cost you to build it. You have to trust me on this one. Building a real studio is very expensive.

Do not forget about studio interconnect. For what you are describing, unless you are soldering for a couple of months yourself and are up on star grounding, balanced power, etc., etc. Allow $30-50k for wiring and interconnect and commisioning of equipment.

Good luck! Building studios is fun. I LOVE it. As long as I'm not the one writing the checks.

[Jschulze]

The contractor is a close friend and is going to building the house on the property at the same time. Me and another friend (another contractor) are going to be tackling most of the studio after the foundation and concrete walls are poured. So most of the labor for the interior of the studio will be close to free. I do plan on a few weeks of soldering.

Since this is really just a project for fun I want to do as much DIY as I can. I enjoy taking on a challenge and this is a pretty big one. Sounds stupid but I'd rather do it myself and have it come out a little shittier than to just pay someone else to do it. Then may be the next time I build a studio it'll come out a little better. Not saying I don't want any help (why else would I be here), but I'm gonna do as much myself as I can.

I'm working on designs right now. As it stands I'm looking at 1800sq ft. I'm hoping that around $250K covers the bulk of it. Does that sound reasonable. Building costs are pretty cheap where I'm from and most of the labor will be free or very cheap.

Thanks, Jordan

[yawatta]

if you're going for more rock-ish type stuff i'd definitely suggest more API pres.. i love them on rock drums..

$.005

[Jschulze]

This is kind of what I'm thinking about. I've already made some changes, but I don't have a new version scanned in. Already raised live room to have 15 to 24 ceilings and also added 2 feet onto the depth of the CR for bass trapping. Also I've changed the CR wall angles. There will be isolated slabs for each room, exterior walls will be 12" poured concrete, and interior wall will be normal 2x4 construction with 2 layers of drywall.

[OVERNIGHT]

Man, I'm doing something very wrong. How a budget can just arbitrarily jump a few 100K I hope to one day understand. Are you a sports surgeon, dental floss tycoon, heir to an oil fortune? I was pretty ****ing awe struck and duanted when I finally had 20K to spend this year. Have fun!

[Jschulze]

If you've ever seen the movie "Brewsters Millions"...I'm kind of like John Candy...

[OVERNIGHT]

Awsome.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jschulze

I'm hoping that around $250K covers the bulk of it. Does that sound reasonable. Building costs are pretty cheap where I'm from and most of the labor will be free or very cheap.

Thanks, Jordan

Jordan, that comes out to $138 per square foot. In LA, that would barely cover a building such as a garage with minimal electric and rough drywall. Now with you doing a lot of the labor, you can (of course) cut down a lot of those expenses. But can you do stuff like framing, cutting the concrete, finishing, etc.? Those are the questions you need to ask. With angled walls, complex angles for finishing, specialized acoustic treatments, extra expenses for keeping sound in & out of the rooms, double floated walls, etc - in other words if you are building a REAL studio and not just an un-attached house pretending to be a studio - I would allow for a minimum of $300-400 per square foot. Remember I'm talking about LA dollars with someone building it for you. That's 2-3X's what you have alotted. A really nice house here is costing about $400 per sq foot to build. A studio is much more complex than the nicest house. I would not be surprised if quoted $600 per sq ft for a studio ground up quote. So there you have it.

Before you go and buy a slew of equipment, I'd put together the list and then build and FINISH the room before spending a dime on equipment. Why? First, gear could change significantly before you finish - you may change your mind about what to buy. Second, if it does not stay stable, gear pricing will more than likely go down than up. If the country has an economic downturn (likely at some point soon IMO) then gear will be way cheaper still. And thirdly, construction (whether you are doing it yourself or having someone else do it) ALWAYS costs significantly more than you expect. Like I said, figure out what you are abolutely CERTAIN it will cost you and add 30% or you will quite likely run out of money. That is of course unless you have money to burn.

Most importantly - have fun. I love building studios as long as I don't have to pay for them and as long as there's not an imminent deadline. The more planning and research you put in ahead of breaking ground, the more fun you'll have and better the studio will turn out. Cheers, Bill

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jschulze

This is kind of what I'm thinking about. I've already made some changes, but I don't have a new version scanned in. Already raised live room to have 15 to 24 ceilings and also added 2 feet onto the depth of the CR for bass trapping. Also I've changed the CR wall angles. There will be isolated slabs for each room, exterior walls will be 12" poured concrete, and interior wall will be normal 2x4 construction with 2 layers of drywall.

Jordan, whether you plan to do it at the outset or not, I would definately plan for 5.1 surround mixing. That definately complicates CR layout issues. As for the CR itself, how about room for some keyboards. Also, I prefer CR's that are laid out exactly the opposite of what you have - wider and not so deep. Have you had your design gone over by an acoustical engineer/designer? Cheers, bp

PS - I'll never build another studio without a machine room. Think about adding one. With all the noisy stuff in CRM's these days, it's almost a necessity. Look at how much money is being spent on "iso boxes" and those are not even very quiet and cost a bundle.

And second, as a second vote for wider control room, even though you do not have a large format console in there right now, you - or someone else - might want one in the future. The room is pretty narrow for that.