Twin Reverb original silverface from 1973 - Any Good compared to the 65' re-issue?

[RIZ Records]

Hi,

Is anybody familiar with the Fender Twin Reverb original silverface from 1973 with the master volume? There is a guy in my area selling one, and i was thinking about getting the new fender 65' reissue, but im guessing the vintage one would sound a lot better. I want to run guitars, rhodes, clavs, organs, ethnic plucks, thorugh it and record it with a Royer R 121 Mic. What do you guys think? Is this vintage model a better choice than the re-issue? I need it to sound clean and clear. I produce hip-hop.


Thx!

[gwailoh]

There's a difference in the circuits between the "blackface" and the "silverface" eras, with many guitarists preferring the blackface. Additionally, the speakers in some silverface TRs are pretty mushy-sounding to my ears. I've had a 1974 silverface TR since, well, 1974, and was really never happy with it until having it extensively modified recently. I had the circuit changed to blackface spec, replaced the Utah speakers with Eminence Red White and Blues, re-capped it, and had the trem/reverb applied to the "normal" channel, which allows the two channels to be bridged if you want. Now I like it a lot, it's powerful, "big", tight, cool.

Whether to buy the re-issue... Well, I dunno. Play it, see if you like it. But, you might think about buying the silverface and having it modded. Might turn out to cost the same as the BF reissue, or not much more. And you might like it better than the reissue. I'm very happy with mine now.

[allencollins]

The reissues sound good. they have 5U4's so they are true to the originals
I would still buy a real one from the 60's. Fender has not been know for quality since the early 70's

[Acoustic Cloud]

Isnt '73 CBS era?

[gwailoh]

Originally Posted by Acoustic Cloud

Isnt '73 CBS era?

Yep. Pretty much the height of the badness, quality-wise.

[DCtoDaylight]

I used to have a blackface Twin ('65 or '66), and it was wonderful - but without the master volume, it really wanted to be PLAYED LOUDLY. Like in an auditorium without reinforcement, which is the sort of gig it was designed for.

In practice rooms and clubs, I usually ended up running the volume control around #2 or so; it sounded good, but to really get the full Twin Sound, it wanted to be up in the 4-5-6 range, which honestly I only got to do a handful of times in the 12 years or so I owned the amp. So on that count, there might be an advantage to the reissue or the silverface.

There are downsides to the silverface, though - I agree that the sound isn't as sparkling, and another big one is the quality of the cabinet. The blackface was really built, with box joints at all the corners. One way Fender cut costs was to start using simple butt joints, which tend to come undone over time, rattle, and even start to slide apart. I don't know what they're doing on the re-issues.

I think the earlier posters have pretty well said it about the '73-era amps....they were not Fender's best by a long shot. If it were me, I'd either get the reissue or (if being vintage is important) look for a blackface.

[AdamJay]

i bought a 72 Silverface with blackface mods (though it still retains a master volume, though modified... which gets used alot for recording). and i love it.

there are alot of techs out there that can wire a silverface back to blackface specs.

[tele_player]

Originally Posted by allencollins

The reissues sound good. they have 5U4's so they are true to the originals
I would still buy a real one from the 60's. Fender has not been know for quality since the early 70's

The Twin Reverb never had a tube rectifier, 5U4 or any other, it always had a solid state rectifier. The Reissue also has a SS rectifier.

The first few years of silverface amps had the same cabinet details as the blackface, they never went for straight butt joints, though I think they might have gone from the finger joint (or box joint) to a less sturdy dovetail in the 70's. I always avoid the ones with the velcro'ed speaker grill, that's when the cabs weren't built as well.

Aside from minor circuit changes made by misguided CBS engineers, there are some other significant differences which appear in some of the silverface amps. Quality of wiring went way down, cloth-covered wire went away, and some of the transformers changed a bit. This last item is the hardest to get around.

[AdamJay]

Originally Posted by tele_player

The Twin Reverb never had a tube rectifier, 5U4 or any other, it always had a solid state rectifier. The Reissue also has a SS rectifier.

you must be one of the few left around here who takes what he posts literally....
just do what the rest of us do and let him blather on with misinformation.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by AdamJay

you must be one of the few left around here who takes what he posts literally....
just do what the rest of us do and let him blather on with misinformation.

[gwailoh]

Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight

I think the earlier posters have pretty well said it about the '73-era amps....they were not Fender's best by a long shot. If it were me, I'd either get the reissue or (if being vintage is important) look for a blackface.

I had a long talk with my amp tech before deciding on the extensive SF mods which I noted in an earlier post. He said that one of the main weaknesses of the '73-era amps is the Utah speakers used in many, but apparently not all of them. Simply swapping out the Utahs with new Jensens or Eminences or whatever you prefer can sometimes make a world of improvement. So that you can potentially end up with a very nice amp for less than the cost of the reissues.

[Acoustic Cloud]

Originally Posted by gwailoh

Yep. Pretty much the height of the badness, quality-wise.

Indeed... I have run into several strats with 3 pos switches..(another cost cutter) yuccch.

Had a customer come in a few years back trying to sell a 4-10 bassman combo, solid state, with the glorious cbs print on the bottom back. Full open back, with what seemed like 3/8-1/2 in plywood, and blocks glued into the corners. For a bass amp.

Some of those strats had what seemed like a crazy 6 inch radius on the fretboard, and maybe 8 inch on the shoulders.... literally felt like a big broomstick!! Was that to save wood?? All hardtail also.... golly gee, what a shame!!

[bluesman714]

I have a really nice 1968 Twin Reverb that I would part with.....email for details.
bluesman714(at)yahoo(dot)com

[tele_player]

Originally Posted by Acoustic Cloud

Indeed... I have run into several strats with 3 pos switches..(another cost cutter) yuccch.

Had a customer come in a few years back trying to sell a 4-10 bassman combo, solid state, with the glorious cbs print on the bottom back. Full open back, with what seemed like 3/8-1/2 in plywood, and blocks glued into the corners. For a bass amp.

Some of those strats had what seemed like a crazy 6 inch radius on the fretboard, and maybe 8 inch on the shoulders.... literally felt like a big broomstick!! Was that to save wood?? All hardtail also.... golly gee, what a shame!!

Real Strats came with 3-position switches, the 5 position switch didn't come till the 70's, and the Vintage Reissues of the 50's and 60's models typically come with an appropriate 3 position switch installed, and a 5-position switch is included if you want to modernize it.

The correct radius on an old Fender, or a faithful replica, is about 7.25", for ease of chording, supposedly. 50's players didn't bend nearly as much as modern players.

Up until a few years ago, any solid state Fender amp is junk. Some would say that's still true. And even the best Bassman from '59 was never a very good bass amp.

[Sharp11]

I have an excellent condition 72 silverface that I love, I just wish I had more use for it.

As has been said - it's loud.

Ed

[Acoustic Cloud]

Originally Posted by tele_player

Real Strats came with 3-position switches, the 5 position switch didn't come till the 70's, and the Vintage Reissues of the 50's and 60's models typically come with an appropriate 3 position switch installed, and a 5-position switch is included if you want to modernize it.
The correct radius on an old Fender, or a faithful replica, is about 7.25", for ease of chording, supposedly. 50's players didn't bend nearly as much as modern players.

Up until a few years ago, any solid state Fender amp is junk. Some would say that's still true. And even the best Bassman from '59 was never a very good bass amp.

Thats hogwash!! who the heck told you that?!?! LOL!!!

[dbbubba]

No, like the other guy said, "The '73-ish Fenders are the benchmark for "horribleness" as far as Fender amps go. The speakers, the trannys, on and on.
At least with the re-issues they are trying to get it right.
With the '70s era amps they were just trying to get product out the door.

I had a silverface Super Reverb (4-10"s) that sat in our studio for years. I'd always crank it up for that "Fender" sound and it just never sounded any good without a LOT of tweaking and then I was never inspired.

I'll forever be bumbed-out over Blackface Twins because I sold a first year ('62?) Twin to Aspen Pittman (Groove Tubes) and it is on the cover of his tube amp book. I have that book and that amp just stares out at me and asks, "WHY?"

Truthfully guys... '70s GTRs and amps don't really fall under the "vinatge" vatagory.
The big determining year was 1968 for a long time. Pre 1968 being better. This is a hard and fast rule.
Once the '50s era GTRs were boaught up the '60s stuff came into the "vintage" catagory. Once they were sooped up the '70s stuff starts being called vintage.
In all actuality, the '70s instyruments were the low point for most all U.S. manufacturers.

Find a good re-issue.
Forget the '73 montrosity!

Danny Brown

[VivaLaVinyl]

I too have a 73 SF, that has been modded to Blackface specs (still with the Utah speakers, though). I love it. That being said, I have never played through a SF of the same era, so I have nothing to compare it to. But my twin is loud, and the tone is tight, especially in the low end. And the tone stays very even as the volume increases.

If you decide to pick up a 73 SF and find the tone not to your liking, consider a blackface mod. Not very expensive or intrusive, and it sounds great.

[dbbubba]

Five position switches didn't appear on Fenders (Strats) until the VERY late '70s or early '80s.

I am 100% certian that NONE of the pre-CBS (or any '60s Strats) had a five position switch. People like Hendrix did put the switch in the in-between position, but there wasn't a detent for it.

In fact, a 5-position switch was a mod that guys started doing to Strats before Fender actually offered it. Aftermarket guitar parts companies sold them first. Those and things like brass hardware and graphite nuts.

The is no debate on this subject.

The dumbass thing that Fender DID do in the '70s do was to go with the three bolt neck attatchment.
That WAS to save money and it sucked!
You could re-tune your Strat by yanking the neck!
Now they offer the boatpaddle, giant headstock again, but hopefully the three bolt (screw) neck will NEVER come back!
They also made the body contour a bit more squared off for a while.
That made Strats un-comfortable, but they were UGLY, too!
That big headstock was a sure sign of an un-cool Strat when guys first started getting vintage guitars in the '70s.
It is the same with boatpaddle headstock Gibsons.
HEY LOOK AT MY BADDASS GIBSON MARAUDER!
Only Ace Freely played one of those and he must have been forced.
Well, he WAS on alot of drugs, too.

Danny Brown

[RIZ Records]

Thanks a lot guys. I think i'll just go with the re-issue. It will save me me from soooo many problems with new parts, maintenance, repairs,ect. I heard they sound good, so its probabbly not that much of a difference from the vintage 68's.

[dbbubba]

Like I said, I had an original Year Twin Reverb (they were just called a Twin before that) and I have a few recordings with it, but I can only say that the '65 re-issues are "close." I have never played them side by side, but I don't get the same vibe when I play through a re-issue. Still, It is LIGHTYEARS beyond the '73 THANG!

Rock on!

Danny Brown

Originally Posted by gwailoh

There's a difference in the circuits between the "blackface" and the "silverface" eras, with many guitarists preferring the blackface. Additionally, the speakers in some silverface TRs are pretty mushy-sounding to my ears. I've had a 1974 silverface TR since, well, 1974, and was really never happy with it until having it extensively modified recently. I had the circuit changed to blackface spec, replaced the Utah speakers with Eminence Red White and Blues, re-capped it, and had the trem/reverb applied to the "normal" channel, which allows the two channels to be bridged if you want. Now I like it a lot, it's powerful, "big", tight, cool.

Whether to buy the re-issue... Well, I dunno. Play it, see if you like it. But, you might think about buying the silverface and having it modded. Might turn out to cost the same as the BF reissue, or not much more. And you might like it better than the reissue. I'm very happy with mine now.

I toured with Junior Brown for two years, and have heard two of the best silver faced verbs with masters of the 12 he owns.

These were maintained to original specs. We had a supply of some rare miltary tubes. That was the only variation. While on the road, we had a couple of techs try to get us to deviate further, like this guy in Florida who was Groove Tubes QC guy for a while. No way GTs were going in there.

All I can say is that they are anything but mush, especially when loaded with the orange JBLs. They are a bit beamy at 3kHz. They are anything but quiet.

[dbbubba]

I dunno'.....

I have never been knocked out by Mr. Brown's tone.
I do like his CDs.
His tone is not really very true to the style(s) he emulates.

Read the PM I sent to you.

Glad you survived THAT gig!
You area gladiator now!

Danny Lee Brown Junior

[gwailoh]

Originally Posted by Lowdbrent

I toured with Junior Brown for two years, and have heard two of the best silver faced verbs with masters of the 12 he owns.

These were maintained to original specs. We had a supply of some rare miltary tubes. That was the only variation. While on the road, we had a couple of techs try to get us to deviate further, like this guy in Florida who was Groove Tubes QC guy for a while. No way GTs were going in there.

All I can say is that they are anything but mush, especially when loaded with the orange JBLs. They are a bit beamy at 3kHz. They are anything but quiet.

Which leads to an important point, IMO. Every single individual specimin of an instrument or an amp is different than every other one. Two '73 Twin Reverbs are likely to sound different from each other, as two reissues are likely to sound different. I have two '74 Tele Thinlines that are lightyears apart from one another. It's not age or different treatment: they always sounded markedly different from one another. I'm sure there are great '73 silverfaces which sound better than run-of-the-mill '65 blackfaces. It's a good idea to keep this in mind when reading or writing generalities on forums like these. The generalities can be helpful especially as starting points for research, but, you can't know until you play the thing.

[dbbubba]

My generalities come from playing through and mic'ing a WHOLE LOT of amps.

Yeah, a few "ggod" ones might squeak through and maybe an amp's tonality works for a certian player, but generally speaking the silverface '70s Fenders are held with VERY low regard. This is especiialy true with the one that hae the grille that looks like a window scren.

The re-issues are definitely a better amp.

Why waste the time HOPING a "bad" era amp "might" be good?
Just go for what is known to work.

Danny Brown

[gwailoh]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

My generalities come from playing through and mic'ing a WHOLE LOT of amps.

Yeah, a few "ggod" ones might squeak through and maybe an amp's tonality works for a certian player, but generally speaking the silverface '70s Fenders are held with VERY low regard. This is especiialy true with the one that hae the grille that looks like a window scren.

The re-issues are definitely a better amp.

Why waste the time HOPING a "bad" era amp "might" be good?
Just go for what is known to work.

Danny Brown

We don't disagree that the BFs are generally better than the SFs. As I noted near the top of this thread, I never liked my SF TR until having it heavily modded; now I like it a lot. But, I'm sure that Lowdbrent is right that he's played some very good SF specimins which he liked. My point is that while all this advice and lore from experienced users can be extremely helpful, there's no substitute for playing the things. It could turn out that the SF which is available to the original poster is a particularly nice one, and he could get a great deal on an amp he'll like. That's the thing: it's not known to work until he plays it. Then he'll know.