What do you charge?
Old 22nd December 2012
  #31
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cocobop's Avatar
Depends on what equipment your working with as well.
Everybody and there brother advertises as an engineer, producer and mastering engineer. So many of them do not know what they are doing..

I have a three room studio as well as working at a couple studios in town.
The main studio I work at has top notch everything and charges extra for almost everything they can. They book consistently with high end clients and do very well. base rate is $100 an hour

At my three room studio in my home I run a native system with Rosetta 800 and a 003 Console. I only use the 003 for the faders and a way to get the Rosetta to the mac via lightpipe and firewire. I have 2 Avalon 737's. Two Twin Finities into two DBX 160 A's. Daking mach IV into DBX 1086 and lastly a Dbx 376 Channel strip
For a home project studio this is pretty high end with great convertors.
The most I can charge and get away with it is $50 and hour two hour minimum for tracking plus mixing.
I used to get more but because people with their garage band or Reaper setup with cheap consumer convertors has reall hurt the market for guys with real equipment.

All is fair in love and war

I teach guitar and classes and recording classes to the guys I was just complaining about and rent out my rack for remote band recording too.
I also do On Hold Music/voice plans as well as some recording for TV when a company I deal with needs extra help

All in all it is more fun than the appliance business I ran and owned for 30 years.
Better than a real job!
Old 22nd December 2012
  #32
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
All files are delivered upon final payment.
Do you deliver as well the project file with your settings/edits?
Old 22nd December 2012
  #33
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drBill's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
Do you deliver as well the project file with your settings/edits?
I do. Lots of guys don't.
Old 22nd December 2012
  #34
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocobop View Post
Depends on what equipment your working with as well.
Everybody and there brother advertises as an engineer, producer and mastering engineer. So many of them do not know what they are doing..
I agree with the second bit but not the first.

The only people who really care what equipment the studio has, are engineers / producers who hire the studio as a studio. People who just want their records mixed couldn't really give a millif*ck if you use a SSL buss compressor or the one that comes with fruity loops. If you make their record the best sounding thing on the circuit then you are winning.

You look at the top mixers in the world, Chris Lord Alge or whatever. Do people hire him because he mixes on SSL? No. Because there's 101 studios they could go to who also mix on SSLs. Because go to him because his records are literally the best mixed rock records of the time and everything that leaves his studio sounds nuts. And you can't put a price on that, so they pay him whatever he wants. I bet if he mixed somebody's record entirely in the box and it sounded as good as his usual work, they wouldn't ask for a 50% refund.

Quote:
At my three room studio in my home I run a native system with Rosetta 800 and a 003 Console. I only use the 003 for the faders and a way to get the Rosetta to the mac via lightpipe and firewire. I have 2 Avalon 737's. Two Twin Finities into two DBX 160 A's. Daking mach IV into DBX 1086 and lastly a Dbx 376 Channel strip
For a home project studio this is pretty high end with great convertors.
The most I can charge and get away with it is $50 and hour two hour minimum for tracking plus mixing.
I used to get more but because people with their garage band or Reaper setup with cheap consumer convertors has reall hurt the market for guys with real equipment.
The only people they've really hurt are people who charged a little anyway. They haven't hurt big studios. Because the only bands who record at home are the ones who are penny pinching and are happy to sacrifice a bit of quality in the name of saving money. Where did those guys record before? At the very low end of professional studios. Places that were basically home studios anyway, just in warehouse units or whatever.

I would say $50/hour is fair money. But your example doesn't really work does it? The major facility in town your $100 is paying studio rent and it's paying engineer rate. Your facility, people are paying you, and you just use your facility as it's cheaper for you than using an external facility. It's not as if, if you weren't mixing something, there would be somebody else in your studio making you money.

The other big thing people forget about is customer service. If you can treat people the way they want to be treated and tell them the things they want to hear, you can make a lot of money even if the product you are making is poor. Look at 'pay day loan' companies. Their product is a loan, which costs you 10x to repay what you actually got out of it in the first place. You borrow £100 to pay a gas bill before pay day comes, it ends up costing you a thousand quid by the time you pay it back. Why do they continue to make money? They give people what they want, and they tell them what they want to hear. "We can pay you just a small amount of money, and it's completely customisable so you can pay it back in your own time" (always read out by some friendly sounding woman, rather than the skinhead psychopath they send round your house to get it back). In the music industry it's perfectly legitimate to be a rogue trader. Be the dodgy builder who tells an old granny he's fitted a highly technical weatherproofing device to the crack in her patio door, charging her £1000; when he's actually wedged a piece of plywood in there and caulked around it at a cost of £5. She'll never look, she'll never know better, and she's happy because as far as she knows she has a super-mega weatherproof patio door. You can be the same with bands. Tell them what to hear, they'll never know whether it's actually been through a hardware compressor or not. They'll just like knowing they're by far the best artist you've had through this month and it's really going to appeal to labels and management.

I know guys with very modest setups making lots of money. And I know guys with pretty awesome setups who rent the studio out for free because they can't get paid work. What is the difference? No client cares what gear you got, all they care about is whether they're getting the product that they want, and whether it's getting delivered in the manner they want. If you can make a client happy they will pay you whatever it costs. If you don't make the client happy, it doesn't matter whether you use your garage or abbey road you will never get anywhere.
Old 23rd December 2012
  #35
Well Honestly, you can get botox shots in the back of a nail salon for $50 bucks or you can go to the doctor on rodeo. All in all, when it rots in you, you wanna be able to sue someone. Just like buying a macbook new in the box off the street. yeah it was only 800 bucks and best buy has it for $1700, but what do you do when it breaks. who do you run to now. More often that not the cheaper guy will stop answering your phone calls and the more expensive mixer will be more prone to fix your issues. Essentially its the difference between buying a Mercedes or a Prius. Sure the Prius will get you where youre going (amateurmix) but no one will be WOWED! by it (Chris Lord Alge Mix) Feel me?
Old 23rd December 2012
  #36
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by octanemedia View Post
Sure the Prius will get you where youre going (amateurmix) but no one will be WOWED! by it (Chris Lord Alge Mix) Feel me?
That was precisely my point when I said that only the rubbish studios are affected by bands buying their own systems.
Old 30th December 2012
  #37
Gear addict
 
musicgen's Avatar
-
Old 30th December 2012
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

$75 an hour for me and the studio.
Old 30th December 2012
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektricshock View Post
Hey guys-- I know there's been a bunch of threads like this, but the answer always seems to be along the lines of "it varies wildly, so there's no point in answering".

Fair enough, but I think it would be helpful for amateurs crossing into the professional world to have some perspective and a general ballpark idea of what is reasonable, so if wouldn't mind sharing, post here.

Also include details (for perspective)... what you do, how you charge (hourly/daily/by project), your size and reputation (just starting out, local, regional, national), location, and the type of studio you work out of.

I think this'll be helpful to a lot of people, myself included.
If you're a recording studio then I think you have to price based on the going rates in your region. A small studio in NYC is going to be in a different price range from one in, say, Jackson Miss., where the overhead is much lower. Check out what other similarly equipped studios in your area are charging, the quality of their work, and offer a better value. Value meaning quality/$.

If you're a mixing or mastering studio then the web makes the whole world your potential client base. Again, look at similarly equipped/experienced studios and offer a better value.

As for the details you ask for, feel free to check my rates which are detailed on my site. My business model has always been to undercharge for what I offer, and it has panned out for me. As long as I work lots of hours I can make a decent living. It's a "win win" for me and my clients. The only drawback is that some people don't believe they can get good sound at low rates, so offering free samples or examples of your work can be helpful in countering the "you get what you pay for" mentality.

Best of luck!
Old 30th December 2012
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
you hire the $300/hr lawyer because you know you're guilty!
And maybe because you asked your friends to refer you to someone who could get you off and so you hire the guy someone you trust has referred you to. From that point, then you evaluate whether the guy is getting the results you want.

Your willingness to pay $____ per hour can also be influenced by what you see when you arrive at the office. If it's a low rent, run down mess, that hardly inspires confidence that you will get the results you want for $____ an hour.
Old 30th December 2012
  #41
Lives for gear
 
popmann's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayskura View Post
Do you deliver as well the project file with your settings/edits?
I've been asked to in a the past...here's the issue--I have no secrets. I'll tell you whatever you want to know. I suppose I'll give you the sessions, but that doesn't include ANY support in being able to open them or explain them. The people that have asked in the past have wanted me to use built in plug ins for X recorder so they can open the files...no way. I don't buy nice plug ins and nice hardware and keep the IO compensation in check so that I can render everything and document what everything came for...or limit myself to built in plugs. You're asking me to spend MORE time to mix a song that won't end up sounding as good...so that someone can study it? Granted, they may learn something...but, they would need me to do that over and over in order for them to learn anything significant and see patterns. I think it's a flawed principle--that seeing what was done in a single mix means a whole lot. It's along the lines of preset for EQ/compression...just because I set the EQ on your guitar to X in this mix is relatively meaningless come next mix with a different sounding track and surrounding context.

If I thought it would actually help, I would gladly provide whatever. But, mixing is a cumulative balancing act...you may love the way the bass guitar sounds...only to find I did very little to it. WTF? It has more to do with what I did to everything ELSE in the mix that allows the bass to sound the way it does.

It's not coincidence that mix engineering is the evolution/graduation of an audio engineer's career. Anyone who mixed "in the day" had been around SOOO many mixes...and helped...and already had a firm understanding of phase and tracking and gain staging, etc...only now with home studios have people decided that new engineers have ANY business mixing at all.
Old 30th December 2012
  #42
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by popmann View Post
I've been asked to in a the past...here's the issue--I have no secrets. I'll tell you whatever you want to know. I suppose I'll give you the sessions, but that doesn't include ANY support in being able to open them or explain them. The people that have asked in the past have wanted me to use built in plug ins for X recorder so they can open the files...no way. I don't buy nice plug ins and nice hardware and keep the IO compensation in check so that I can render everything and document what everything came for...or limit myself to built in plugs. You're asking me to spend MORE time to mix a song that won't end up sounding as good...so that someone can study it? Granted, they may learn something...but, they would need me to do that over and over in order for them to learn anything significant and see patterns. I think it's a flawed principle--that seeing what was done in a single mix means a whole lot. It's along the lines of preset for EQ/compression...just because I set the EQ on your guitar to X in this mix is relatively meaningless come next mix with a different sounding track and surrounding context.

If I thought it would actually help, I would gladly provide whatever. But, mixing is a cumulative balancing act...you may love the way the bass guitar sounds...only to find I did very little to it. WTF? It has more to do with what I did to everything ELSE in the mix that allows the bass to sound the way it does.

It's not coincidence that mix engineering is the evolution/graduation of an audio engineer's career. Anyone who mixed "in the day" had been around SOOO many mixes...and helped...and already had a firm understanding of phase and tracking and gain staging, etc...only now with home studios have people decided that new engineers have ANY business mixing at all.

I always give them the sessions if they want it - because it generates bad feelings and distrust if you don't. Or at least I've seen that happen in the past. You and I both know that the odds of them "recreating" or even reopening the mix is slight, but they want to feel like they can if they NEED to. Like what if you (God forbid) were killed in a car crash or something and they get signed and have to remix due to some lame A&R person. Or what if your studio burned down and the master mix sessions were lost.

The way I insure that they CAN'T perfectly recreate the mix is OUTBOARD. Patch it in, leave the inserts in place in the mix when you hand it over, keep notes for yourself that are not necessarily handed over, and they have a mess on their hands. They will send it to their buddy to open and make better - and if you are any good at your job, and I assume you are - their buddy will tell them he can't match or make it sound as good as your mix. So if they need changes, they will be back to you.

Resentfulness is not a good conduit for future business or referrals. I always smile, say, "sure, but it will not open and sound the same anywhere else" and give them the files.
Old 30th December 2012
  #43
Lives for gear
 
popmann's Avatar
Yeah, like I said, I will provide whatever...but, I won't change the tools I use in order to do it, if that makes sense--which is what I'd been asked to do before (effectively). I certainly have no secrets.
Old 30th December 2012
  #44
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
...
Your willingness to pay $____ per hour can also be influenced by what you see when you arrive at the office. If it's a low rent, run down mess, that hardly inspires confidence that you will get the results you want for $____ an hour.
I saw a cartoon where these people are sitting in an office with diplomas on the wall and inverse in the window you can see "Attorney At Law". The man sitting behind the desk is a CLOWN, conical hat, polka-dotted shirt, round nose, painted mouth, the whole deal.

The two 'clients' are sitting across from him and he is saying: "Look at it this way, if I wasn't a VERY good lawyer, could I afford to practice in a Clown Suit?"
Old 30th December 2012
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I always give them the sessions if they want it - because it generates bad feelings and distrust if you don't. Or at least I've seen that happen in the past. You and I both know that the odds of them "recreating" or even reopening the mix is slight, but they want to feel like they can if they NEED to. Like what if you (God forbid) were killed in a car crash or something and they get signed and have to remix due to some lame A&R person. Or what if your studio burned down and the master mix sessions were lost.

The way I insure that they CAN'T perfectly recreate the mix is OUTBOARD. Patch it in, leave the inserts in place in the mix when you hand it over, keep notes for yourself that are not necessarily handed over, and they have a mess on their hands. They will send it to their buddy to open and make better - and if you are any good at your job, and I assume you are - their buddy will tell them he can't match or make it sound as good as your mix. So if they need changes, they will be back to you.

Resentfulness is not a good conduit for future business or referrals. I always smile, say, "sure, but it will not open and sound the same anywhere else" and give them the files.
Plus of course, you're then no longer solely responsible for backups. I mean, I backup finished projects in triplicate, but I try to make sure the client has a copy too (if it's not purely a mix session). Then there's always an offsite backup.
Old 30th December 2012
  #46
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I saw a cartoon where these people are sitting in an office with diplomas on the wall and inverse in the window you can see "Attorney At Law". The man sitting behind the desk is a CLOWN, conical hat, polka-dotted shirt, round nose, painted mouth, the whole deal.

The two 'clients' are sitting across from him and he is saying: "Look at it this way, if I wasn't a VERY good lawyer, could I afford to practice in a Clown Suit?"
Are you sure the sign didn't say, "judge?"
Old 31st December 2012
  #47
Lives for gear
 
Sofa King's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by popmann View Post
I've been asked to in a the past...here's the issue--I have no secrets. SNIP

I dont get asked for full sessions.

I print as many stems/ mixes as they need, and if its something Ive produced, they get the multi track.

If Im just mixing, then that client already has a copy of the multi track.

I DO keep all my final, thinned, sessions backed up on archive drives just incase.
Old 31st December 2012
  #48
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
The way I insure that they CAN'T perfectly recreate the mix is OUTBOARD. Patch it in, leave the inserts in place in the mix when you hand it over, keep notes for yourself that are not necessarily handed over, and they have a mess on their hands. They will send it to their buddy to open and make better - and if you are any good at your job, and I assume you are - their buddy will tell them he can't match or make it sound as good as your mix. So if they need changes, they will be back to you.
That's not necessarily an outboard thing.

You can always process stuff using plugins, and then print the track so that all they get is a 'processed' track. It's the same principle.
Old 31st December 2012
  #49
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tc_live View Post
That's not necessarily an outboard thing.

You can always process stuff using plugins, and then print the track so that all they get is a 'processed' track. It's the same principle.


In essence, that's just giving them stems which is even easier for them to recall and tweak your mix. I don't think you're getting it.

If you print the processed track, they have it and can mix it back easily - they don't need the outboard you have, they don't need your brand of DAW, they don't need your plugins, they don't need your reverb or $10,000 worth of compressors, and they don't need you. If you use outboard in your mix via your patchbay, notate your recall settings for YOUR records, and give them the mix session without outboard settings or printed stems, there's no real way for them to pull the mix up and bump the vocal up a dB or so. They MUST come back to you, or redo the mix to greater or lesser degree - depending on how much outboard you use. And at that point, you have quality control over what your name goes on.

Pull up a mix that had a bunch of outboard on the inserts without said outboard inserted sometime and you'll think half your tracks are missing. It's so much easier to just go back to the source - you.

Now, if the client wants to pay for stems, I'm happy to do them - but it will cost a lot more. And at that point, I figure the mix is going to be whatever it ends up being. Certainly not MY mix if they get going with it or have their buddy "fix" it.
Old 31st December 2012
  #50
Banned
 

Engineering day rate: $400 - 800.
Mix rate: two grand per song.
Production: whatever I can get.
Old 31st December 2012
  #51
I'm typically an on-site recording engineer. I go out to clients, temporarily treat their space and record them there. $150 deposit on the first day, $75/day after that. If I recorded the song I charge $25 for each song mixed, if I didn't record it I charge $100. I've stopped "mastering," except for quick dirty jobs for clients who can't afford a real mastering service. This kind of fluctuates because I try to work with smaller bands a fair portion of the time, and they typically have smaller budgets.
Old 31st December 2012
  #52
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post


In essence, that's just giving them stems which is even easier for them to recall and tweak your mix. I don't think you're getting it.

If you print the processed track, they have it and can mix it back easily - they don't need the outboard you have, they don't need your brand of DAW, they don't need your plugins, they don't need your reverb or $10,000 worth of compressors, and they don't need you. If you use outboard in your mix via your patchbay, notate your recall settings for YOUR records, and give them the mix session without outboard settings or printed stems, there's no real way for them to pull the mix up and bump the vocal up a dB or so. They MUST come back to you, or redo the mix to greater or lesser degree - depending on how much outboard you use. And at that point, you have quality control over what your name goes on.

Pull up a mix that had a bunch of outboard on the inserts without said outboard inserted sometime and you'll think half your tracks are missing. It's so much easier to just go back to the source - you.

Now, if the client wants to pay for stems, I'm happy to do them - but it will cost a lot more. And at that point, I figure the mix is going to be whatever it ends up being. Certainly not MY mix if they get going with it or have their buddy "fix" it.
Oh now I see what you mean. Sorry my bad. Yep that makes sense.

I too charge more for stems than mixes. Personally I don't 'print' to stems or provide them with the session file (unless it is blank). That may sound backwards... but it's my intellectual property and it's up to me what I do with it. They've paid for the mix so they get the mix. They don't get access to see how that mix is made.

There is the whole blood knot thing. The blood knot is used by fisherman for tying 2 sections of line together. It's pretty impossible to undo it once you've pulled it tight, especially in fibre rope which has got wet since you pulled it. There was a bloke in England who invented it and made it his business to tie it. If you wanted two ropes making into one without any ability to undo it you could take him your ropes and he'd go into his back room and tie it for you, jam it completely, squeeze it in a vice, then charge you and give it back. He did well for himself, until somebody one day took him a few ropes to get a couple of knots in. Upon getting them back with knots in, he proceeded to cut through the knots with a knife, making it very easy to undo. He then looked at each knot, in various stages of untie, and worked out how it was tied. He then drew pictures of each stage of tying, made a book, and sold it.

This was in the days before intellectual property and court cases and stuff. So the knot tier just got a few quid for a few knots, and the author made loads of money selling books to everyone who wanted knots done. Lesson being - don't give away your secrets. You may think that showing somebody how it's done won't mean they're able to do it, but it's certainly a good starting point.
Old 31st December 2012
  #53
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tc_live View Post
Oh now I see what you mean. Sorry my bad. Yep that makes sense.

I too charge more for stems than mixes. Personally I don't 'print' to stems or provide them with the session file (unless it is blank). That may sound backwards... but it's my intellectual property and it's up to me what I do with it. They've paid for the mix so they get the mix. They don't get access to see how that mix is made.

There is the whole blood knot thing. The blood knot is used by fisherman for tying 2 sections of line together. It's pretty impossible to undo it once you've pulled it tight, especially in fibre rope which has got wet since you pulled it. There was a bloke in England who invented it and made it his business to tie it. If you wanted two ropes making into one without any ability to undo it you could take him your ropes and he'd go into his back room and tie it for you, jam it completely, squeeze it in a vice, then charge you and give it back. He did well for himself, until somebody one day took him a few ropes to get a couple of knots in. Upon getting them back with knots in, he proceeded to cut through the knots with a knife, making it very easy to undo. He then looked at each knot, in various stages of untie, and worked out how it was tied. He then drew pictures of each stage of tying, made a book, and sold it.

This was in the days before intellectual property and court cases and stuff. So the knot tier just got a few quid for a few knots, and the author made loads of money selling books to everyone who wanted knots done. Lesson being - don't give away your secrets. You may think that showing somebody how it's done won't mean they're able to do it, but it's certainly a good starting point.
Your point is well taken, but at least for me, it's not so much about my secrets as my experience, ears and the choices I make because of those. You and put all my outboard in front of another mixer, my console, my DAW and all my plugins, but you can't get him to sound like I do. Yeah, I suppose in a way you are right, but it's still a very personal thing. I'm not even sure I can go back and copy myself....
Old 31st December 2012
  #54
Lives for gear
 
jrhager84's Avatar
 

Anytime somebody tries to get you to 'spill it' give them this analogy:

You go to a fancy restaurant. You order the chef's specialty. What do you get? The dish? Or the meal, the recipe, the ingredient vendor list, the proportions, and a quick 'how to' video of how to prepare it?

Nope. You just get the dish.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777
Old 31st December 2012
  #55
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
Then again you only pay the chef 50-150 bucks or so...
Old 31st December 2012
  #56
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demor View Post
Then again you only pay the chef 50-150 bucks or so...
From what I can gather on this thread that might not be all that different to what you pay here! I know plenty of people who'll do a mix for less than 150 bucks.
Old 31st December 2012
  #57
Lives for gear
 
jrhager84's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demor View Post
Then again you only pay the chef 50-150 bucks or so...
...and how long did it take the chef to prepare the dish? How many dishes can they sell per day? Food (no pun intended) for thought.
Old 31st December 2012
  #58
Deleted User #106149
Guest
 

This thread is very very informative.Thanks tc live and co.

I produced and mixed an entire album for free, sent them the masters and decided I didn't want it released because - it wasn't mixed well enough (by me as I was essentially in a bad sounding bedroom) , they aren't that good, and overall I think it is derogatory to me as a mixing professional / producer

My hard drive failed, lost the projects and now thy are releasing it despite my objections, I own the Master mixes, the entire album was produced and mixed at my home studio.

I don't have the projects (or masters) anymore but I do have all emails which make everything clear. They are even using different versions of my early production mixes as promo material (which goes unsaid, they should not be heard by anyone but producer and artist)

I know I know, I was a fool. But is there anything I can do?

They are in usa, I'm UK.

Sent from my HTC Desire
Old 31st December 2012
  #59
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wcb123 View Post
This thread is very very informative.Thanks tc live and co.

I produced and mixed an entire album for free, sent them the masters and decided I didn't want it released because - it wasn't mixed well enough (by me as I was essentially in a bad sounding bedroom) , they aren't that good, and overall I think it is derogatory to me as a mixing professional / producer

My hard drive failed, lost the projects and now thy are releasing it despite my objections, I own the Master mixes, the entire album was produced and mixed at my home studio.

I don't have the projects (or masters) anymore but I do have all emails which make everything clear. They are even using different versions of my early production mixes as promo material (which goes unsaid, they should not be heard by anyone but producer and artist)

I know I know, I was a fool. But is there anything I can do?

They are in usa, I'm UK.
Not really. Any kind of legal action would cost you more than it's worth. If they're not very good anyway then people will generally go 'you're ****" without looking too hard at who recorded it.

Probably the best thing to do would be play nice and just say "fine, do what you like with it, but I'd prefer you don't put my name on it". With a bit of luck then at least your concerns are met and you can just learn from it.

Out of interest why did you decide to mix a rubbish band for free?

Like I said there's no point starting a legal furore because it'll cost you money and since you've earned none that puts you at a loss. Just let it go.
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