16 Track 2" RTR into the digital domain.......

p. dovetonsils · 20th July 2006, 02:05 AM

I need some advice/recommendations for a friend who wants to start getting into the digital domain.

He currently records on a 16 track 2" RTR and wants to start transferring said tracks into his computer.

I've mentioned to him about the many choices out there for interfaces.

He just bought a brand new PC with very fast processors and he'll have plenty of RAM and a 2nd dedicated large HD for the audio files..

First of all, how would you approach tracking? Record eight channels and then do a second set? Or, are there any 16 channel interfaces/pci cards out there?

He usually has five tracks mic'd for drums, two to three for vocals,one for bass, two or three for guitar and one or two for keyboards: leaving a couple open for misc.

I realize I'm starting out this thread explaining in very general terms.

I'm just starting to gather ideas and thought many of you will have different and interesting approaches.

He has about $1000 to spend on the interface.

He'll probably just mix-in-the-box so he won't need a control surface.

He's still looking at software: although I think he'll probably go the PT route(rely on lots of plug ins).

Thanks in advance.

themaidsroom · 20th July 2006, 07:38 AM

get a bit more money for your friend
have him go to studio that does said transfers
have him work on stuff from m-box.....

i think it will be very difficult to get a 16 channel setup w/ software
etc.....that will do that job for $1000

an m-box @ $400
plus 6 $100 hours at a studio that does transfers will better serve the budget &
the
integrity of both the 2" 16 track format and the world of digital audio.....

things can be added along the way.......

just my 2 cents

be well

- jack

p. dovetonsils · 22nd July 2006, 03:16 AM

Jack

Thanks for the reply.

The $1K budget is only for the interface. Software is part of another budget.

Would'nt something like a Delta1010 or Tascam 1804 or Fireface 800 work: he could record eight tracks at a time. Perhaps transfer his drums in first and then bass,guitars, vocals etc. next?

headwerkn · 22nd July 2006, 05:17 AM

i don't know about doing the transfer 8 tracks at a time - can you trust RTRs to return to the exact same start point for the second pass?

as far as i'm aware the most affordable way of getting 16 analogue tracks into a DAW at once is by using a Mackie Onyx 1620 or 1640... or its bastard cousin, the Phonic Helix 24. a band I live mix and record uses the Phonic... it's cheap but I'm yet to find any real fault with it. I don't doubt the Mackies would be a bit cleaner though. anyway, either will get a full 16 line channels into your mate's system via firewire at up to 96KHz.

that said... getting an Mbox or M-Audio/M-Powered setup for home and letting a studio do the transfer on their banks of 96 I/Os is probably vastly preferable.

Bluzzi · 22nd July 2006, 05:26 AM

Rent a 16 channel Analog to digital interface for a day.

Doing 8 tracks at a time is no good unless you can guarantee rock solid sample accurate sync. It would cost a lot more than $1000 so don't bother.

Rent for now until you can afford one. Or buy one of the cheaper ones but you may not like what you hear.

The other option is to buy a HD24XR. I've seen them for just under $1,600.00! There you will have 24 channels of very good quality A/D and D/A converters!

jim

Wiggy Neve Slut · 23rd July 2006, 10:15 AM

I wouldnt be too phased( no pun intended.. lol!) about dumping 8 tracks at a time.. just add a bit of a 1khz tone before the tracks. Either record them before the tracks begin or splice them in on a seperate piece of tape before the pre-recorded stuff.

The 1Khz tone will give you a uniform reference point for all 16 tracks and should be a piece of piss to line up 2 x lots of 8 tracks. This is what a DAW if for init?

Personally i would do all the vocals digital and leave the tracks for instruments which will benefit the most from the tape mojo..

Give it a crack.. although if u can spring for 16 i/o that will be the best of both worlds!

Best of Luck
Wiggy

True North · 23rd July 2006, 05:10 PM

When you say you have a thousand for an interface are you speaking about a PCI card or A to D convertors.

You can buy an Lynx AES16 which is a PCI basd interface card which will allow simultaneous recording of up to 16 tracks up to 192 Khz.

The AES16 will not link up to ProTools but will work with Cubase, Nuendo, Sonar etc.....

For about $1100 you can get a Digi002 which will give you an interface, 8 channels of A/D conversion and 4 mic pre channels. You can record up to 18 tracks simultaneously but you will need additional mic pres and convertors. You can transfer up to a max of 96k with 8 tracks and a max of 48k with 16 tracks.

An 002 is really outstanding value and obviously works with Pro Tools but I would be very leary of relying on it's convertors and mic pres for conversion of tape based projects.

Given your budget I would personally choose the Lynx option. Buy a Lynx Aurora 16 for conversion (keep the box and manual and don't rack it) and when you are done transferring sell it on Ebay, it will be cheaper than renting. That being said I assume you will need convertors at some point in time.

Good Luck

p. dovetonsils · 23rd July 2006, 06:05 PM

Thanks all for the replys.

My friend just informed me he just got a new iMac. SO, the PCI card scheme is out the window........
He's using the PC for some video projects.

I think the Mackie 1640 firewire option is probably a good way to go. Not too complicated and conversion will be okay. Obviously not great, but at least adequate.

Comes with Tracktion 2 which will at least start getting him familiar with DAW's. Then maybe Logic Express or Live 5/6 down the line.

He's got a nice road ahead in terms of learning.......

guitarbill · 23rd July 2006, 06:28 PM

I think Bluzzi's HD24XR idea was in the zone you want to be with the budget problem. For less than another $200 you can add the fireport adapter which adds a cheap way to get 24 tracks into any computer (including firewire equipped macs) from there. To save even more you could buy an HD24 used (hopefully one that comes with the fireport) for less than a grand.

Good luck with the transfers.

p. dovetonsils · 23rd July 2006, 06:46 PM

Thanks for allowing me to not dismiss the HD24.

Definitley can find one for a grand with fireport installed.

Is the conversion much better than the Mackie 1640?

The more I think about it, it seems the HD24 would give one better control over the transfer:

Load all tracks into the HD24 and then do the transfer via firewire.

With the Mackie 1640 I'm assuming you're tranferring all in one shot with little ability to tweak: EQ obviously,but not much more.

Seems like the HD24 can do much more...

Bluzzi · 29th July 2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiggy Neve Slut

I wouldnt be too phased( no pun intended.. lol!) about dumping 8 tracks at a time.. just add a bit of a 1khz tone before the tracks. Either record them before the tracks begin or splice them in on a seperate piece of tape before the pre-recorded stuff.

The 1Khz tone will give you a uniform reference point for all 16 tracks and should be a piece of piss to line up 2 x lots of 8 tracks. This is what a DAW if for init?

Personally i would do all the vocals digital and leave the tracks for instruments which will benefit the most from the tape mojo..

Give it a crack.. although if u can spring for 16 i/o that will be the best of both worlds!

Best of Luck
Wiggy

Your intentions are good but you are not misunderstood when I say that this method will only cause a lot of pain! You will have uneven drift no matter how you align in this way.

To answer other messages. The converters on the HD24XR (or HD24 with upgrade) are known to a lot better than original ones in HD24. And that is at 44.1 or 48 as well. It is a significant upgrade and I would consider the HD24XR first.

By the way I started my project with an Ampex MM1000 and transfered to locked ADAT tape. Now I use an HD24XR and I am not going back to 2" tape.

The HD24XR is not perfect. It lacks many features but if you like using a tape recorder you will fall right in when using the HD.

Also guitarbill is correct in recommending the Fireport.

You can find the HD24XR for 1,600.00.

good luck in whatever you choose.

jim

yawatta · 30th July 2006, 08:00 AM

what about recording a track of timecode on your 2" to lock up to the digital interface? then you can slave your recorder to that timecode, record 8 tracks, then go back and do it again with the other 8.. it'll make sure everything's lined up.. but then i'm not sure if the extra timecode gear would be just as expensive as getting the extra 8 channels of ADC.. it's a thought =)

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20th July 2006, 02:05 AM	#1
p. dovetonsils Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 41	16 Track 2" RTR into the digital domain....... I need some advice/recommendations for a friend who wants to start getting into the digital domain. He currently records on a 16 track 2" RTR and wants to start transferring said tracks into his computer. I've mentioned to him about the many choices out there for interfaces. He just bought a brand new PC with very fast processors and he'll have plenty of RAM and a 2nd dedicated large HD for the audio files.. First of all, how would you approach tracking? Record eight channels and then do a second set? Or, are there any 16 channel interfaces/pci cards out there? He usually has five tracks mic'd for drums, two to three for vocals,one for bass, two or three for guitar and one or two for keyboards: leaving a couple open for misc. I realize I'm starting out this thread explaining in very general terms. I'm just starting to gather ideas and thought many of you will have different and interesting approaches. He has about $1000 to spend on the interface. He'll probably just mix-in-the-box so he won't need a control surface. He's still looking at software: although I think he'll probably go the PT route(rely on lots of plug ins). Thanks in advance.

22nd July 2006, 05:17 AM	#4
headwerkn Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hobart, Australia. Posts: 319	i don't know about doing the transfer 8 tracks at a time - can you trust RTRs to return to the exact same start point for the second pass? as far as i'm aware the most affordable way of getting 16 analogue tracks into a DAW at once is by using a Mackie Onyx 1620 or 1640... or its bastard cousin, the Phonic Helix 24. a band I live mix and record uses the Phonic... it's cheap but I'm yet to find any real fault with it. I don't doubt the Mackies would be a bit cleaner though. anyway, either will get a full 16 line channels into your mate's system via firewire at up to 96KHz. that said... getting an Mbox or M-Audio/M-Powered setup for home and letting a studio do the transfer on their banks of 96 I/Os is probably vastly preferable. __________________ "The big hump at the left in each graph is called a "low-end head bump" and is typical of analog machines. Often +2 dB or more, it can exaggerate the low end coming back from the tape, especially with kick drums, and is probably the reason why the adjective "punchy" came into existence. Enjoy." I make websites, btw... B+W Design

23rd July 2006, 10:15 AM	#6
Wiggy Neve Slut Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,848	I wouldnt be too phased( no pun intended.. lol!) about dumping 8 tracks at a time.. just add a bit of a 1khz tone before the tracks. Either record them before the tracks begin or splice them in on a seperate piece of tape before the pre-recorded stuff. The 1Khz tone will give you a uniform reference point for all 16 tracks and should be a piece of piss to line up 2 x lots of 8 tracks. This is what a DAW if for init? Personally i would do all the vocals digital and leave the tracks for instruments which will benefit the most from the tape mojo.. Give it a crack.. although if u can spring for 16 i/o that will be the best of both worlds! Best of Luck Wiggy __________________ If i see another 'Which neve clone is better thread... im seriously gona go postal!!!!!!!"

23rd July 2006, 05:10 PM	#7
True North Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Richmond Hill, Ontario (Canada) Posts: 2,503	When you say you have a thousand for an interface are you speaking about a PCI card or A to D convertors. You can buy an Lynx AES16 which is a PCI basd interface card which will allow simultaneous recording of up to 16 tracks up to 192 Khz. The AES16 will not link up to ProTools but will work with Cubase, Nuendo, Sonar etc..... For about $1100 you can get a Digi002 which will give you an interface, 8 channels of A/D conversion and 4 mic pre channels. You can record up to 18 tracks simultaneously but you will need additional mic pres and convertors. You can transfer up to a max of 96k with 8 tracks and a max of 48k with 16 tracks. An 002 is really outstanding value and obviously works with Pro Tools but I would be very leary of relying on it's convertors and mic pres for conversion of tape based projects. Given your budget I would personally choose the Lynx option. Buy a Lynx Aurora 16 for conversion (keep the box and manual and don't rack it) and when you are done transferring sell it on Ebay, it will be cheaper than renting. That being said I assume you will need convertors at some point in time. Good Luck __________________ "In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey" - Beck, Loser "I do use compressors/limiters but not for controlling dynamics, I use EQ for that!" Jp22 (damn I miss him) "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -- Will Durant, historian (1885-1981) "I try to get a boom out of the bass drum, in one of my albums, my CD, boom, I try to get that big boom, I could not get a big boom, I paid bucks, and could not get the boom" - Recording Expert, Tad Donley

20th July 2006, 07:38 AM	#2
themaidsroom Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: nyc Posts: 2,867	get a bit more money for your friend have him go to studio that does said transfers have him work on stuff from m-box..... i think it will be very difficult to get a 16 channel setup w/ software etc.....that will do that job for $1000 an m-box @ $400 plus 6 $100 hours at a studio that does transfers will better serve the budget & the integrity of both the 2" 16 track format and the world of digital audio..... things can be added along the way....... just my 2 cents be well - jack

22nd July 2006, 03:16 AM	#3
p. dovetonsils Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 41	Jack Thanks for the reply. The $1K budget is only for the interface. Software is part of another budget. Would'nt something like a Delta1010 or Tascam 1804 or Fireface 800 work: he could record eight tracks at a time. Perhaps transfer his drums in first and then bass,guitars, vocals etc. next?

22nd July 2006, 05:26 AM	#5
Bluzzi Gear addict Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 361	Rent a 16 channel Analog to digital interface for a day. Doing 8 tracks at a time is no good unless you can guarantee rock solid sample accurate sync. It would cost a lot more than $1000 so don't bother. Rent for now until you can afford one. Or buy one of the cheaper ones but you may not like what you hear. The other option is to buy a HD24XR. I've seen them for just under $1,600.00! There you will have 24 channels of very good quality A/D and D/A converters! jim

23rd July 2006, 06:05 PM	#8
p. dovetonsils Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 41	Thanks all for the replys. My friend just informed me he just got a new iMac. SO, the PCI card scheme is out the window........ He's using the PC for some video projects. I think the Mackie 1640 firewire option is probably a good way to go. Not too complicated and conversion will be okay. Obviously not great, but at least adequate. Comes with Tracktion 2 which will at least start getting him familiar with DAW's. Then maybe Logic Express or Live 5/6 down the line. He's got a nice road ahead in terms of learning.......

23rd July 2006, 06:28 PM	#9
guitarbill Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: South Central Alaska Posts: 67	analog to digital I think Bluzzi's HD24XR idea was in the zone you want to be with the budget problem. For less than another $200 you can add the fireport adapter which adds a cheap way to get 24 tracks into any computer (including firewire equipped macs) from there. To save even more you could buy an HD24 used (hopefully one that comes with the fireport) for less than a grand. Good luck with the transfers.

23rd July 2006, 06:46 PM	#10
p. dovetonsils Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 41	Thanks for allowing me to not dismiss the HD24. Definitley can find one for a grand with fireport installed. Is the conversion much better than the Mackie 1640? The more I think about it, it seems the HD24 would give one better control over the transfer: Load all tracks into the HD24 and then do the transfer via firewire. With the Mackie 1640 I'm assuming you're tranferring all in one shot with little ability to tweak: EQ obviously,but not much more. Seems like the HD24 can do much more...

30th July 2006, 08:00 AM	#12
yawatta Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: nashville Posts: 70	what about recording a track of timecode on your 2" to lock up to the digital interface? then you can slave your recorder to that timecode, record 8 tracks, then go back and do it again with the other 8.. it'll make sure everything's lined up.. but then i'm not sure if the extra timecode gear would be just as expensive as getting the extra 8 channels of ADC.. it's a thought =) __________________ "don't nobody didn't know you didn't have none" - jeff's mom

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