Live in the studio?

[logic]

Hey,

So um a ………..?? I have this blues-rock band that wants to record their album live in the studio. Well my concern is major bleed, especially on vocals. Doing any vocal comps could be a nightmare? What would YOU do??


I suck ya...........????


kidding mabe ?

[davemc]

Find mic with the least bleed or the best bleed....

Droping in can be a pain. Sometimes they might just have to re do the same take if you hear it to much.
Maybe try to put up another mic close to where the singer is as a room mic for drop ins...

[ProFool]

if its just one singer ill put him or her in the control room
or does he play guitar as well?
its awfull using a delay or a verb @ mixing stage on a vocal with lots of bleed.

[Dave Martin]

You're looking at tradeoffs here - I personally LOVE bands that are live in the studio; I've even done them with no headphones. But it may be that you won't be able to comp vocals at all (If the vocals, for instance, bleed into the drum mics). Or you may have to put the singer in an iso (with eye contact with the rest of the band) so that you can comp. Or you might have to replace the vocals after the band tracks are done.

Just remember that they were making records before you could fix mistakes...

[Fletcher]

That's pretty much the only way I work... by choice even. The thing about "a band in a room" is to manage the bleed [and you're going to be pretty surprised at how little there is, but how much effect it will have on the outcome].

First, if you don't have a good sounding room... you're ****ed. The room is major importance. If the room sounds boxy or shitty... so will the recording. IMNTLBFHO, 12ft.+ ceilings are mandatory!!

The hardest thing to get straightened out is bass bleed into the drum mics. If you work with no headphones [which is the way I prefer to work... I hate doing multiple cue mixes and I find the band never plays as well in headphones as they do without them] then the bass amp needs to be in some kind of proximity to the drums.

I've usually found that putting the bass amp up on a road case so it's like "ear level" with the drummer [and not kinetically coupled to the floor!!] helps a whole lot.

As for guitars... they also need to be in proximity to the rhythm section or the player is going to have a tough time locking... with the bleed, make sure you have a good balance between the drums, bass, and guitar while you're tracking [you may even want to print a mix while you're tracking... even if it's only for later reference].

Singers, I prefer floor wedges to headphones [unless the artist has been touring with "in-ear" monitors and is used to them]. Two wedges at a 75-90 degree angle in front of a 'straight stand' with a the mic in cardioid or hypercardioid and you'll usually be able to find a spot where the bleed from the monitors is desirable.

I have at times added a bit of slap echo [and even some slap echo on the snare drum!!] to the singers monitor. If you hang several layers of packing blankets with some air space between them [like 3-4 inches, 3-4 layers] and put the singers back to that you generally don't have too many problems with comb filtered reflections from the wall behind the singer.

The key to the whole thing is to A) have fun; B) make sure the band is really comfortable; C) have fun; D) concentrate on all aspects of the audio without a thought to "fixing" something later; E) have fun [really, don't get stressed out... it's not "life or death" and if you're stressed, the band will sense that and won't play as well as they can... and the point of this excercize is to get the orchestra with it's head in a good place so they can give up the best performance].

Best of luck with it... remember to breathe.

[mitgong]

Wait til you see how much easier, and quicker, it is to make cool sounding records this way. Fletcher, I shake your hand (via internet). Golden words.

[smoothmoniker]

preproduction, preproduction, preproduction.


One of the biggest hassles with this style of working is that the band will reach for things that are at the peak of their technical threshold, because it's "for the record". If they only hit their parts 1 in 5 times, and 5 guys need to nail their parts for the tune to work, the odds start getting way out of your favor. In a normal overdub tracking, that's fine. For a live tracking, they need to be well within their comfort zone (re: fletcher's post) musically, technically, and environmentally.

-sm

[JordanDRUM]

just to echo what fletcher said, I find it most beneficial to put the bass rig somewhere that will really compliment the drum kit.

it could be psychological, but i usually end up digging the low end better in a mix when the drums and bass were tracking at the same time out in the open. there is some real low end magic during completely live, exposed tracking.

[jdier]

The last thing my band recorded at a professional studio was live. It was all done at Nexus Studio in Waukesha WI. Tracking room is HUGE (24'+ ceiling) and it is all very well prepared acoustically. Here is how it went down.

Drums were set behind 3 gobos (4 ft x 4 ft bases, with 3 ft of angled double paned glass at top= 7'gobos)

Bass was DI

Guitar amps were put in iso booths

Three vocal mics in front of guitarists and bass player.

We all wore headphones.

The engineer then pumped out two mixes... one to the head phones and one to a small club PA. The headphones had everything, the club pa had no drums.

the PA was used so the people in the studio (about 25-30 family and friends) could hear the band like they were at a show.

We also mic'd the room to get some ambient sound and crowd noise.

We set up and played the whole set (6 songs) twice through with a short 15 minute break in the middle.

All said and done, I wish we did not serve beer because no one clapped (since they were holding their beers) and I wish we mixed it down with less room sound.

Here is a link to two of the tunes if you are interested: www.mp3.com/rmutt

Turpentine and Tribe were from that session.

[logic]

Wow good stuff…

My only issue other than bleed is that I’m worried the band really isn’t good enough to blow through their songs live with out a bunch of mistakes. So I am planning on needing to edit or punch in a bunch. Maybe we could do multiple takes to pro Tools them comp the takes together, but that will take mucho time and money????

[bloodstone]

I've heard the Neumann KMS 105 works really well for voices in this situation. Tony Bennett recently did a live record facing an orchestra using the KMS 105. I did a hard rock/metal band with the singer using a Sennheiser MD421. It worked out really well. They were playing so loud my eardrums were throbbing!

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by logic
My only issue other than bleed is that I’m worried the band really isn’t good enough to blow through their songs live with out a bunch of mistakes.

Ya know ace... if the band isn't good enough to blow through it with no mistakes, then they're not good enough to blow through it with no mistakes.

Sometimes "mistakes" turn into magic moments, sometimes they sound ****ed.

IMNTLBFHO ANY performance that has to be "fixed" in Alsihad isn't a performance... it's a cluster ****... so if these genius's don't have their shit together to render a "performance", **** 'um.

BTW, I forgot to mention that the IBP has saved my balls more than a few times with straighting out the relationships between the 'front of the kit' mic, and the mic on the bass rig [as well as the bass DI line if we happen to run one].

Best of luck with it.

[Etnier]

Figure-8 mics are a great help with live band stuff: the isolation factor can really save you. And the band should be prepared for the fact that their takes won't have the isolation they would otherwise.

[CrazyBeast]

I do this sort of thing fairly often and all of the above info is right on. I totally agree about the low end just working better when the drums and bass are together.

I prefer to go headphoneless - or just the vox in the phones and do the - one ear on,one ear off thing. I'll usually recut the vox, but sometimes with the ksm105 (works great for this type of thing) it works well enough to use.

My room is pretty damn small really, but fairly good sounding and I still find that cutting most or all elements live like this just works better. The bands definitely gotta have their shit together though - as it should be!

[Messiah]

I love putting the bass cab right behind the drummers stool so that it purposely spills into the drum mics. If it's done correctly, in a good sounding room, it gives a depth and dimension to the bass that I've always found it hard to match. It pays to adjust the positioning of the cab too for phase.

I don't know about others, but I find when I track a band live there is less of a need to start excessive layering. For example, drums, bass, 2 gtrs and vox all tracked live compared to drums with bass, then guitar, then another guitar and then vocals never quite feels as complete...

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