Nice way to persuade inexperienced drummer we need to turn him down in the mix

[Gretsch 6120]

Originally Posted by restlessboy

Erm... thread title says it all really.

We're doing a five track EP on a budget, not much time to mix. Have got a nice balanced, drum-heavy sound for four of the five tracks. But one of them's much quieter - at least at the start - and I think we need to turn him down a reasonable amount for it to have the right dynamic. He's adamant that he likes how it sounds but I think he's just not great at stepping back and hearing the whole song rather than focussing on his contribution.

What's a nice, persuasive way to talk him round?

Is this a band effort, or is this a project band, with you being at the helm of writing and engineering? What do the rest of the members think about this issue? If the this is a project you’re in charge of then it’s your purgative to mix it to your tastes.

He’s a kid, right?...He’s inexperienced, right?....Then if my two assumptions are correct there probably is no nice way to put it to him….of course, I’m 39 now and just at an age where I have kids of my own and have neither the time nor patience to coddle whiny and unyielding “musicians.”

Thank the dude for his contributions, but then tactfully explain to him he’s inexperienced, deaf, and clueless and that his track levels will be brought down where deemed necessary. ; )

Cheers,

Chris

[rcb4t2]

"the drums will hit much harder once the song kicks in if we keep them quiet during the intro"

or

"b**** I'm turning you down"

Your call.

[Joe Cole]

Ask him to re-track it just for you, and that you want to compare soft vs hard in that section/song.

[shaddai]

we need to turn him down a reasonable amount for it to have the right dynamic. He's adamant that he likes how it sounds

Start looking for a drummer that can focus on team results, instead of his own sound. If the current drummer values the band he's in, he'll chill out.

[Turdadactyl]

Tell him to go listen to ...And Justice For All and see what happens when a drummer insists too much on having himself too loud in the mix. If he still doesn't get your point, I say go with the recommendations above on finding a new drummer.

[RKrizman]

I wouldn't argue the point with him at all. Are you mixing now? In the course of any band recording millions of little issues like this may arise, and it's a mistake to make any sort of big deal about it, as long as you're not doing anything irreversible. If you're mixing, just mix it as you wish and then let the band weigh in.

Whatever you do, avoid any resentful or poisonous "lose the drummer" attitudes.

I'm with the Eno/Lanois school that says any idea worth mentioning is worth trying, with the prevailing attitude being "Cool, let's see how it goes".

-R

[joeq]

Originally Posted by restlessboy

Erm... thread title says it all really.

We're doing a five track EP on a budget, not much time to mix. Have got a nice balanced, drum-heavy sound for four of the five tracks. But one of them's much quieter - at least at the start - and I think we need to turn him down a reasonable amount for it to have the right dynamic. He's adamant that he likes how it sounds but I think he's just not great at stepping back and hearing the whole song rather than focussing on his contribution.

What's a nice, persuasive way to talk him round?

IMO, mix-by-committee is a bad idea anyway

mix it the way you think it should be mixed

If he objects, and if your band is a "democracy", do two mixes and vote for the best one.

Where do you draw the line between cutting somebody out of the decision making process and giving that person VETO power over everyone else? Why are you looking at it as 'turning him down' in this song instead of looking at it as 'turning him up' in all the other songs? Why does he get to force everybody else to adhere to a "balance" that was never specified in the first place?

[andychamp]

One good idea is the following "rule": everybody can pitch in, BUT NOT ABOUT THEIR OWN INSTRUMENT.
Forces everyone to widen their perspective.

[Herc]

Mute everything except the drums and listen through

then listen again and slowly bring in the other instruments to the level they should be

if that doesn't work just turn the drums down and agree as a band that's the way it will be :-(

[Aaron Miller]

If you are getting paid or otherwise being asked to make this kind of call, then make the call and just mix it how you want. If not, mix how the band wants. I understand you may be in a grey area where you feel the need to moderate between rest of band, your own desires, and the drummer. You need to establish your roll clearly.

If you want to persuade him, put it at the level you like and say this: "Your drum part kicks ass. Very nuanced playing. Nice job of sitting that in the mix. Real tasteful. Wow, this has mojo..." Make it sound like he played it just right to fitt.

Or if he doesn't know that much about mixing, just tell him not to worry; mastering is going to make it slammin'

[Aaron Miller]

Originally Posted by andychamp

One good idea is the following "rule": everybody can pitch in, BUT NOT ABOUT THEIR OWN INSTRUMENT.
Forces everyone to widen their perspective.

Drummer: "Guitarist part is too loud. Vocals need to come down a bit. Bass is too loud."

In all seriousness, your suggestion is a good idea and works with most people

[character]

What you can do is "mix by committee" to set the general levels, then to do the final mix later by yourself. What are the chances that the drummer will notice anyway, as long as the drums are somewhat present and several days have gone by since he heard the previous version? I doubt he'll be able to notice if the drums are 2db lower. Or, depending on the song and what he's playing, bring down certain parts of the drum kit during that section, and leave other drum levels up, if appropriate. For example, if he's playing subtle cymbal parts and beating the toms, turn down the toms but leave the cymbals up if it sounds decent.

Find out who his favorite bands or drummers are, and find examples where they are playing subtle and are more quiet in the mix. Or just tell him - to get the sound of those drummers, you'll have to compress and put some reverb on his drums. Then just turn it down a bit, and tell him it sounds exactly like whoever he idolizes.

[Kiwi]

Tell him you want to experiment with mix "dynamics". Tell that if everything is loud all the time, our brains get bored and tune it out. If we can keep some sections softer than others, he will sound more amazing when it comes in.

Or if that doesn't work, i'm liking Gretch 6120's suggestion to "tactfully explain to him he’s inexperienced, deaf, and clueless and that his track levels will be brought down where deemed necessary. ; )"

Good luck.

[kiopo]

Just don't discuss it, do it and tell them that's the finished thing. If you're not getting paid for it and it's a project you're in, as far as I'm concerned you're mixing it for experience and credit and it should be mostly your decisions.

I've had this problem a lot of times, and you quickly learn to separate ego comments from things you haven't mixed well. 99% of the time with new drummers, it's ego comments!

[edva]

Play him some classic Beatles, Stones, or Zep. Great drummers, way back in the mix. Plus, he may learn something.

[wwittman]

easy answer: decide who is producing

or,

learn for next time why you NEED someone to produce

[restlessboy]

Hey,

You'll all be pleased to hear that this was resolved very amicably. I just went for 'let's see how it sounds' and when he heard it he was fine with it.

The problem was that whilst I'm quite good at mixing stuff - in a non-professional way - we were paying for studio time as a four piece 'democratic' band and it was physically being mixed by the studio engineer, so everything was done by discussion.

Drummer wanted it all to sound like Future of the Left, which was fine for four out of the five songs, but one of them needed dialling back....

As I said, on the day he was happy with how it sounded - no one needed to be sacked or put in a headlock.

Thanks for the tips though!

[Santiago]

Congratulations, it sounds as you used old fashioned dialogue and discussion with your drummer. I think that works much better than any adversarial or manipulative technique - it's also a good basis for long-term working relationships!

[character]

Boring ending!

Just kidding - glad it worked out. Sometimes the stress of anticipation is worse than the actual issue. And it's always a nice surprise when that's the case.

[restlessboy]

Boring eh?

Okay, in the end I made him turn it down by locking him in a room for 24 hours straight with nothing for company but the sound of his own drums at full volume until he could no longer bear the sound of them.

Better?

[joeq]

Originally Posted by restlessboy

Boring eh?

Okay, in the end I made him turn it down by locking him in a room for 24 hours straight with nothing for company but the sound of his own drums at full volume until he could no longer bear the sound of them.

Better?

maybe add something about jumper cables and a car battery...

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by wwittman

easy answer: decide who is producing

or,

learn for next time why you NEED someone to produce

one of those times when I wish we had a like button next to a post.

[cherrymusic]

Tell him you want to try a new plugin called "Drummer Replacer"

[joeq]

Originally Posted by chet.d

one of those times when I wish we had a like button next to a post.

we do

there is a thumbs up and down in the lower right corner

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by joeq

we do

there is a thumbs up and down in the lower right corner

Is that new? Darn never noticed.

[shanabit]

He's suffering from "More Me Syndrome" just like guitar players experience.

Try it both ways then let the whole band vote.