Using 2 microphones on a Kick with closed heads... Help wanted!

[dim light]

Hello fellow GS people!

I need some help - I'm going to track some drums this weekend and the kick drum have closed heads - no sound hole in the front skin. I'm a little empty on ideas - I would like to use two microphones on the kick because that's the sound vision I have at the moment. Normally I use AKG D112 in the front hole and Rode NTK facing the kick but further away from the kick... (Sorry for the English).

I was thinking of putting the D112 on the batter skin facing where the pedal hits the skin but this approach always gives me problem because my kick pedal isn't 100% silent - I have no money to buy a new one at the moment. How about putting the D112 in front of the front skin pretty close to the skin and have the NTK where I normally put it.

Another way would be to put the D112 inside the kick - My Kick drum is designed so I can put the cable through the drum and still use a closed front head - I have Whitney drums. I was thinking - maybe I can put a small pillow inside the kick and lay the D112 on top... I don't want to muffle the kick because it sounds really good without damping.... And the use a NTK outside the kick...

Is there more options - tips and tricks are welcome!

Thanks a lot guys... Means a lot to me.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by dim light

Another way would be to put the D112 inside the kick - My Kick drum is designed so I can put the cable through the drum and still use a closed front head - I have Whitney drums. I was thinking - maybe I can put a small pillow inside the kick and lay the D112 on top... I don't want to muffle the kick because it sounds really good without damping.... And the use a NTK outside the kick...

That sounds like an option... Can you borrow another mic for that session?
So you would be able to prepare your kick drum (like you mentioned above)
for the session. Then you could compare the "inside D112" with the two
mics outside...

Another option would be building a tunnel with a blanket. That way you
would have a more isolated outside mic sound...

What kind of sound/music are you going to record?

[Bat Head Sound]

I'd take the front head off and then build a tunnel out of packing blankets, or something to that effect. That allows you to get a mic up closer to the beater.

[seaneldon]

+1 for taking off the front head entirely.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

+1 for taking off the front head entirely.

+2

...

[drmmrboy]

Originally Posted by dim light

I was thinking of putting the D112 on the batter skin facing where the pedal hits the skin but this approach always gives me problem because my kick pedal isn't 100% silent - I have no money to buy a new one at the moment. How about putting the D112 in front of the front skin pretty close to the skin and have the NTK where I normally put it.

Is it squeaky? WD-40
Is it clanking around? Not much to do but try and tighten the hardware on it.

Are you sold on capturing the kick with 2 closed heads?
I'd try the NTK on the resonant head, and something on the batter side for a little schmack attack as needed. Check your phase, and thump away! thumbsup

If it doesn't happen, well, try taking the reso off.

[opentune]

Hmm, taking off the front head? Will change the sound of the kick drum
in a dramatic way...

What about using one mic for capturing the "bottom" of the kick drum
and the other as a room mic (for capturing the smack)?
I would give it a try if i were you...

[PhilE]

Razor blade!

How much is a new head compared to a compromise on the tracks?

[dim light]

Guys you are fast!

Removing the front head is not an option - because my kick drum is small 18 and without the front head the sound dies - works on other drums but this one is special and a little different. The kick sounds really nice in the room.

I'm pretty limited right now - I have the 8 channels from my stage box. The drums are being record in another room and I only have 7 channels for the drums... So I need to get it right. But this session is not a paying gig. Just me and some friends recording for two days so I guess there is time to experiment. I will see if I can get a hold of the Audio Technica AE2500 mic as an option.... Could be really cool.

The tunnel is not a favorite here - I want the drums to breath nicely in the room I like to have the kick in the overheads etc. But thanks anyway!

Anymore options...

Here is my setup:

Overhead SM81 x2 for overhead
Snare - Shure 516EQ (E-Qualidyne) or SM57/58 - I'm not sure yet.
Bottom Snare - Shure SM57
Kick - NTK and D112
Rack toms - one SM57 (Put in the middle)
Floor tom - SM7A (Any advices? - I have more vintage SM57 and the dyne vintage stuff that looks like SM57 but silver - don't remember the names now - sorry)

Maybe I skip the bottom mic for the snare and add the AEA R84 for room - what do you think? I can always later trigger the snare and add some synth noise for some buzz)

Options wanted - thanks guys!

[dim light]

Originally Posted by PhilE

Razor blade!

How much is a new head compared to a compromise on the tracks?

Not an option - the kick sounds the best with closed heads... thanks anyway!

[zarembo]

I also wonder what sound you would like to achieve?

what style of music and such?

You can also just add a hole to the front head--

not a big deal to do that

in situations where I can't have access to the inside I still do the two mic thing--with a d12 or beta 52 right up on the front skin (edit: oops my new fave for this is re20/27) and another mic further back--

but I lay a sweater or towel across the front of the front head along the bottom to suck up some of the boomy ring.

good luck!

[drew]

Open up the drum and do the small pillow and a Beta91 inside and the NTK outside.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by dim light

I'm pretty limited right now - I have the 8 channels from my stage box. The drums are being record in another room and I only have 7 channels for the drums...

You might want to let us know more about the limitations. Seven channels for
the drums... does this mean 7 inputs on your recording device? Seven channels
of preamps/channel strips? Seven outputs on your console?

More info would help a lot!

Good to hear that you will keep the kick drum alive by NOT taking off
the front head!

[djui5]

Originally Posted by opentune

What about using one mic for capturing the "bottom" of the kick drum
and the other as a room mic (for capturing the smack)?
I would give it a try if i were you...

This is a great idea also. Maybe place the second mic around front where the beater hits the head, aiming to minimize foot pedal squeek.

I really like the AE2500 on kick. Great kick mic

I'd advise spending a few min's moving the mic around to get best placement. It'll be worth it in the end.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by djui5

I'd advise spending a few min's moving the mic around to get best placement. It'll be worth it in the end.

Thanks Randy! I forgot this....

[warhead]

I'd be interested to know if using your D112 on the beater side and the R84 as a room mic but positioned close to the kick...would give you the sound you are looking for. The R84 is a great room mic and does well with low frequency energy.

My $0.02

War

[dim light]

Opentune and guys:

I have the stage box connected to 8 channels on my Allen&heath GL2200 mixer so I have EQ and pre's on every channel... I'm not sure but maybe we change 4 of the pre-amps to Focusrite (the blue one with 4 mic pres) - all depends what stuff my boys will bring tomorrow. Anyway - the setup for now is 8 pre-amps amd EQ. - Sorry for being unclear about the setup. I will try to get a hold on the Audio Technica - I really want to try it on kick drum.

djui5 - I'm going to try miking the batter head - I have had good result before but always some squeak from the pedal - I need to invest in a better pedal (I know).

The music we are going to record is a mixture of rock and acoustic stuff with live instruments. I don't know what's going to happen - we will write and record the songs tomorrow. We do this every summer. Beer and jamming together.

And yes - I will tweak all microphones for best placement - I normally track drums in the control room but now I have moved them to the second floor and the control room in the basement. Also nice to be able to concentrate on the mix/tracking instead of playing - miking - record... I mostly record everything alone.

I will post some mp3 next week if I'm not too ashamed of the sound ha!

Thank you guys!

Keep em coming...

--- oh and i refuse sound hole in the front head - I tried it ones and hated it on my whiteny - I have it on my other drum set (Mapex)...

[TinderArts]

For a batter side mic, try something with a hypercardiod pattern. See if you can find a place where you can aim the null at the bottom of the snare.

Again, what's the style of the song? that's important. It may be best for the song that you don't do the batter side thing.

On some jazz kits w/18" kick I've had good luck using a Shure 91 on the front head with a heavy towel laying up on the front head just a bit and the 91 sitting on a short piece of foam. It seems to get rid of some of that "basketball bounce" sound that close micing the front head of a small, double headed kick often produces.

One more option is to use Drumagog. Make dynamic samples of the kick with a good room mic (the R 84 mentioned earlier is a good choice) and use a batter mic to record the performance with. Replace the batter mic recording with the clean rooms samples after the fact.

[davenutz]

Originally Posted by PhilE

Razor blade!

How much is a new head compared to a compromise on the tracks?

if you are gonna cut a hole in the front head, heat up an empty coffee can on the stove, and use a pair of pliers or tongs to hold it while you melt a hole in the head. Not only will it be round, but the edges will be formed in such a way as to prevent the mylar from ripping.

[dim light]

Here is how I did it - maybe I change tomorrow - I will do some test recordings tomorrow with my friend before the guys arrives.

I used Rode NT3 x2 for the rack toms and I put my Rode NTK on the floor tom. I have the SM81 for overhead spaced pair. Shure SM57 on the snare.I know the guys are bringing some stuff tomorrow. Mostly vintage (cheapo) microphones from ebay. I have two more channels so I think I wait with what mic to use for room and maybe kick roomy sound.

Tinderarts - great stuff man - I will keep that in mind - I don't own the 91 but I have the d112 and I'm going to try it inside the kick on a soft pillow if I don't get the sound I want with this setup.

The music we play is acoustic and electric -folksy rock with a twist... Maybe some white man reggae and drunken jazz. I don't know what will happen - everything is open! We will drink and record for 2 and half day.

Dr. Nutz - awesome tip - thanks!

Hey how does my mic setup sound? I want a warm and open sound - I like buzz and life - I'm not that interested in getting a separated sound - Just a great roomy drum sound with lots of buzz and sparkle. I will add a room mic tomorrow - I won't use my AEA because I'm too afraid using it with drunken people.... Hopefully the guys bring something cool to the party for room.

Thanks again!

Please comment on my mic setup - !

[dim light]

This is it - the mic placement is under construction...

[Joba]

I would not remove the head or make a hole in it if you are happy with the sound in the room. Not only the sound but also the feeling will be very different.

If you like the sound you get from a front and batter mic you could gate the batter mic.

For maximum control print them to two tracks. Copy the front mic to a new track and nudge it a few ms earlier. Key the gate from this track but and don't let it trough to the mix. There you go, a clean batter mic track without the pedal noise.

[dim light]

Originally Posted by Joba

I would not remove the head or make a hole in it if you are happy with the sound in the room. Not only the sound but also the feeling will be very different.

If you like the sound you get from a front and batter mic you could gate the batter mic.

For maximum control print them to two tracks. Copy the front mic to a new track and nudge it a few ms earlier. Key the gate from this track but and don't let it trough to the mix. There you go, a clean batter mic track without the pedal noise.

Very good - I agree on everything! Cool. Thanks!

[AdamJay]

just a thought, but would gating the batter side mic eliminate the squeeks from your pedal?

it would be a damn quick gate if all you are wanting is that initial attack 'smack' from that mic, and if you can get the mic really close to where the beater hits the head then gating would be pretty accurate.

and if that is the case, maybe use a mic with a more pronounced mid and high frequency response to get the 'smack'. Let the resonant head mic fill in the rest of the kick sound.

[AdamJay]

joba beat me to the punch!

(pun intended)

[djui5]

That's a pretty kit

[Jules]

[DontLetMeDrown]

Kick always seems to sound like piss if you dont get inside that drum. After a few bad experiences, I now tell this to drummers before they even step foot in my studio: Buy a head with a hole or it's gettin' sliced.

Exacto-knife a hole or try the coffee can trick. Dont let a stubborn drummer ruin his band's CD. If he is a dick about it-- Drumagog his sorry POS kick.

[dim light]

Thanks!

I'm not convinced - I won't cut a whole - but I will try a mic inside the kick... That would be the same thing according to my brain... I'm afraid the mic will jump every time the drummer hits the pedal. If I'm not happy with the sound I will go for miking the batter side.

Ha ha Jules - that picture was funny!

[Eric Greedy]

does the kick have the requisite air hole? it's very easy to gaffer tape a mic to some foam on the inside. and use a female xlr - tt cable (like you use to hook up gear to a patch bay). The tt end will slide out through the hole...you can buy tt to bare ends from mogami ad add the xlr. The get a single tt jack and wire that to a male xlr. Now you can always put a mic inside. Now put the head back on. Mic from the outside too. print to separate tracks.