A recorderman thread...

[nathanvacha]

So I have to sing the praises of recorderman OH mic'ing... I was using a room for drums I've never used before, it's fairly small and sadly almost squarish, wood floor/rug, bookcase across back, absorption on sides and window/absorption on the front wall w/ door. I went with this mic'ing technique partially since the room is so small and partially out of curiosity and I am really digging it. Gearwise it was a new set of km184's (I like these two actually) through a Vintech dual72. Two nights in a row, two different drummers, the solo'd overheads just sound killer.

Just for clarification for those of you more familiar with this overhead style, where are you putting the snare side mic? It seemed like I really had to play around with positioning a lot to find an acceptable place for both mic's equidistant from the kick/snare... any thoughts?

[scrubs]

I haven't tried this technique yet, though I'm anxious to test it out. It seems the OH mics are very close to the drummer's head. Have you noticed any problems with breath noise in the OH's?

[allstar]

Tinkering around to get the snare and kick equidistant from the two OHs is pretty normal in my experience. Infact I've found it impossible with the way some drummers set up.

As far as drummers making noises, the level ratio of breathing to drums is so high I'd be suprised if you ever found it a problem.

Having said that, I record one drummer who grunts when he's getting into it. After compressing the OHs a fair bit and blending back in with the original signal, you could most definitely hear him grunting in the track.

But then I like that sort of thing.

[AcousTronic]

I'll be checking out the Recorderman method this weekend for the first time... I'm gonna run 5 mics all together... 2 OH in Recorderman style, 1 snare, 1 kick, and I'm going to set up an "ambience" mic in the next room. I read a thread where a guy said he got the best results using the OHs for 90% of the mix and an ambience mic for the other 10%... I'm doing snare and kick mics in case I need to add a touch of compression to one or both, plus I have control issues




BTW, For any newcomers to this method here's some good reading:
http://www.bigbluelounge.com/forums/...ic.php?t=24345
http://www.recording.org/ftopict-9909-sonixx.html
http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread...=&view=&sb=5&o

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by AcousTronic

I'll be checking out the Recorderman method this weekend for the first time... I'm gonna run 5 mics all together... 2 OH in Recorderman style, 1 snare, 1 kick, and I'm going to set up an "ambience" mic in the next room. I read a thread where a guy said he got the best results using the OHs for 90% of the mix and an ambience mic for the other 10%... I'm doing snare and kick mics in case I need to add a touch of compression to one or both, plus I have control issues

That's cool. I've found I like the snare sound, but it doesn't hurt to mic it. kick can be a little weak, depending on the room, and toms and cymbals are very present. I've been doing it with 4-5 mics depending on if I have a room mic or not.

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

I too have tried this technique. About the position of the 2nd mic, I use the 2 drum sticks, one point in the middle of the snare the other 45 degrees to the right, place mic there. I found that it is not so hard to put the mics equidistante to snare, and even when the snare is not 100% dead center I don´t mind that much. If the drummer places the snare a bit to the right/left then why souldn´t the phantom image show that?
About your ambient mic. This is something that i can´t seem to deal with. How do you manage to add a mono ambient mic to a stereo drum pick up without messing with the first image? Doesn´t your hh or ride start shifting place?

[scrubs]

I tried it this past weekend with a couple of cheap omnis as the OH. Imaging was pretty good and no noticeable breath noise. For one song, I was using Hot Rods, and the snare got kind of lost during busier passages, so I'll definitely add a snare mic next time I do this setup.thumbsup

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

About your ambient mic. This is something that i can´t seem to deal with. How do you manage to add a mono ambient mic to a stereo drum pick up without messing with the first image? Doesn´t your hh or ride start shifting place?

Can't tell you yet, I haven't gone to mix it. I may not use it at all, but I've done it in the past in bigger rooms. If it's far enough out of the way it doesn't really confuse you and I have used it in the past to squash to the point of distorted pumping with maybe a couple of comp's in series, quick release so you can hear at least one open up. It's not an every-time kind of thing... and usually I like drums in just the overheads (if I want them to sound like drums) so I'm not a frequent user of the mono room, personally. And I've done it before like completely off to the side, so it really doesn't have any effect on stereo image.

[AcousTronic]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

...This is something that i can´t seem to deal with. How do you manage to add a mono ambient mic to a stereo drum pick up without messing with the first image? Doesn´t your hh or ride start shifting place?

Well, my drummer had to reschedule for this coming weekend, so I don't speak from experience on this as of yet. BUT my hunch is that the overheads provide you with the stereo image. The mono ambience mic will go up the middle of the mix but not very noticably. Only enough to add some natural verb... Now regarding phase or canceling since the signal will reach the room mic so much later than reaching the OHs... I figure that if it becomes a problem, I will slightly move the entire mono ambience track forward on my DAW until it sounds right.

I was reading Michael Wagener's reply to Extreme bass player Pat Badger's bass sound. In that there was a direct signal and a mic signal, with obviously the direct signal reaching the recorder first. So he used a slight delay to match them up. What I'm saying is the opposite, and bringing the ambience mic track forward to match the timing of the OH's rather than the other way around because of timing issues. If you delay the OHs to match the ambience mic, it will throw off the entire groove... I think.

If I can't get it to sound right, I'll scrap it and use the other 4 mics. But at least I will have that option


Oh also, I'm planning to use a noise gate on the ambience track that is activated (or opened) by the snare... That may answer the "cymbals imaging" question. That was a secret ingredient of the article I read FWIW. ...I'll try it with and without and let my ears be the boss.

[forsooth]

I've been using the recorderman's O/H technique for the last few months and I prefer it over my previous set-up. I was using an SM 57 on the snare, AKG D 112 on the kick and four AKG C218s on the toms etc. No overheads usually but sometimes a Cascade M20.

I have now switched to SM 57 on the snare, Audix D6 on the kick ( much fuller) and a matched pair of Peluso CEMC-C6s as overheads. Nothing on the toms......a four mic set-up. Saves a bunch of time when editing and since our drummer does not use the rack or floor toms that much anyway what there is is picked up by the overheads. Down from 16 channels to 12 usually. Cleaner mixes all round.

I love the Audix kick mic and that with the Peluso's gives me just what I need.

I am usually recording live gigs ............. because I like the vibe!

Good luck with the technique, it works for me!

forsooth

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

How do you pan Ovh when placed recorderman style?

Yesterday I tried this again. I had a light studio session tracking drums only with the purpose of cutting some loops to use in a hip hop project, so wildness was the name of the game.

I had so much fun. I didn´t have to go for a more standard ortf or xy or a/b. I could also use all my outboard for tracking. I really squezzed the Ovhs through a 1968ME. Wonderfull sound.

So i gave a chance to recorderman style again. And i compared it with a A/B pick up. What i did find imediatly was that the recorderman gave me a dryer sound. I had much less room. So i added a 414 about 4 meters away in omni. It really worked.

The image of the kick and snare also seem very strong and pretty centered with this technique- nice. What i found a bit strange was the image of the cymbals and toms. I had doubts about how i should pan the overheads. Since one mic is centered over the snare and the other is place sideway, can the pan values be different for L/R. Something like 60 / 80? Or no matter what we should keep them equal?

[kats]

I keep the pans equal - or else the snare/kick will pull (defeating the purpose). Don't forget that the horizontal spacing of the two mics is pretty narrow, so you can pan it wide. The snare mic will still pull the floor tom side over so the imaging won't make you dizzy.

Just another trick, use a string. Measure the distance between the snare mic and snare, and the snare mic and kick. Lets say it's 30" and 48" respectively. Cut a piece of string 78" long plus 1" for play. Tape one end to the snare and one end to the kick. Mark off your string 30" from the snare and pull the string into position until both sides are tight - place your second mic. This way you can find the arc of possible positions of the second mic - up down, left right etc and remain in phase.

[bobby yarrow]

The way almost every drummer sets up, I find it impossible to keep 2 mics equidistant from both the snare and kick. Or, if it is possible, the mic positions are really weird -- like 1 mic 3" above the ride cymbal or something stupid like that.

My starting point for rock drums is an m/s overhead or in front of the kit, with the snare in the middle of the side mics (kick be damned). And then spaced pair for the cymbals, trying to keep snare in the middle, and mics on all the shells. And a room mic tucked away someplace. I rarely use all of it, but can never predict what I WON'T use. (Will always use snare & kick mics, and will almost always used spaced pair, but everything else is up for grabs.)

[joeq]

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

The way almost every drummer sets up, I find it impossible to keep 2 mics equidistant from both the snare and kick. Or, if it is possible, the mic positions are really weird -- like 1 mic 3" above the ride cymbal or something stupid like that.

I'm one of those drummers! I find that if I increase the height of each mic by about 6" or so I can usually find a positioning that works for equidistance. In other words, I try a longer string. I was never able to use the "two drumstick" distance without risking hitting the mics on the upstroke.

3" over the ride cymbal (I know exactly the spot you are talking about!) is obviously no good, but other things that look weird often sound really excellent.


check out this similar thread

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

Does anybody know were the artist himself is these days? It would be nice to ask him all this.

By the way, so far i used the 2 drumsticks for measuring and it worked pretty good. And if you shift 45 degrees to the right of the first mic you shouldn´t be so near to the cymbals, i guess, unless you use them really high.

Anyway, although this technique is interesting I don´t think that it is worthwile changing your drum setup or putting a drummer in stress just to use it. If you are getting the mics to near from the cymbals just move them away or use another pick up technique, that´s why there are plenty. I still think A/B and ORTF are the best suited for drums.

[kats]

"recorderman" himself will be the first to deny claim on the technique. It's based on Glyn Johns mic techniques.

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

Does anybody know were the artist himself is these days? It would be nice to ask him all this.
.

Doesn't (didn't) he have a forum over at marsh.prosoundweb.com Look for any posts by "electrical" there and on GS too... He's definitely been here in the past!

[tgrokz]

i just recently tried it out and fell in love. the OH tracks alone sound incredible, let alone everything all togeather.
the only problem that seemed to occur while tracking, is i can get a bit into my drumming (doesnt every drummer?), and i tend to swing my long, lankey arms. when hitting the (drummers) right crash and ride, if im gonig ape shit at this time, i can hit the right shoulder mic. i guess its all about positioning though. ill find a way today.
otherwise, its a god send for me and my 7' high untreated room.

[C_F_H_13]

Does anyone have any pics of these setups??? I'm curious to see how this all works...

[joeq]

Originally Posted by C_F_H_13

Does anyone have any pics of these setups??? I'm curious to see how this all works...

see link below:

check out this similar thread




and this is another variation: