Will a Neve make all the difference?

[jackinthebox]

I've just finished producing an album of fourteen songs for a band with a little money behind them, but my budget is tight. I've tried out a couple of good mixers so far, one with a Cubase and UAD system and one with a Logic G5 and mackie analogue desk setup. Neither has quite come up with the goods and the manager who is financing the project and therefore A&R effectively is thinking about alternatives. The source sounds were recorded fairly bsicall y on a portable laptop, pres and compressors setup (DAV bg1, 1176 etc) through an RME multiface at 44.1Khz 24bit resolution. I didn't EQ a lot at the tracking stage so good EQ will be necessary at the mixing stage.
The issue i have at the moment, which i would be eternally grateful for any learned opinion on, is whether spending £500 a day or so on a full Neve room with all the outboard you could need. plus a guy mixing who insists upon this level of gear (who will do a deal to keep his fee down), will make the difference between it being a hit or not.
The songs are well crafted and as it is an indie/rock record the organic quality it needs may well be brought out by a great console and the alanogue summing could well give it what it needs. It's not especiall hifi sounding so ultra clean SSL wouldn't be my first choice.
The mixes i've had previously were not especially bad we're just trying to bring the most out of the recording possible, without the budget going through the roof!
Another option i have is a studio with an AMEK angela console with an HD3 system which i can get pretty cheap. How would this compare to a full Neve in terms of the overall tone of a record? No compressors on the desk but with your bomb factory's etc would it come close?

Obvioulsy if the budget wasn't an issue i would go neve all the way.
I'm just interested in you guys' opinion on how much difference it actually makes. And whether spending two or three times the money gets you double the quality or is it the old diminishing returns rule where you double the cost and get a fraction better overall?

Another issue which might be part of it is the manager/a&r is making decisions based on unmastered mixes. Would mastering them well convince him that they're good enough because he's used to hearing mastered records on his stereo and doesn't have the experience to know what will sound good when mastered?

It's a complicated puzzle when the budget is tight. Where does one draw the line?

I look forward to your replys!!


Owl

[gainreduction]

As always, who mixes it will make more of a difference than what console it's mixed on.

Maybe spend some $$ on what are the potential singles, mix them with a good guy and try to find a good low-budget alternative for the albumtracks.

[nathanvacha]

It would sound better through a neve.

It would cost more through a neve.

What's your mixing experience? If you can afford someone more expensive, that alone may get you better results.

I hate to blame the gear, but for that organic indie kind of thing, the neve may be nice.

[AdamLazlo]

The person mixing it would be my first choice. I've had to work in all sorts of different environments that came down to budget.

There was a session I recorded and mixed a 5 song EP with a consumer level TASCAM board. All I used on the console was monitoring and all the mic pre's, compressors, etc were my outboard gear. The band listened to several different mixes of each song. A few weeks later they wanted to use one of the songs for a local compilation CD and wanted to remix the song. Not only did they want to remix it but they wanted to do it elsewhere (with me). It wasn't because they hated the mix but they listened to the various mixes too much (had too many options).

After much discussion I told them I'd call in a favor at one of the uber studios in town I sometimes freelance at to go in and remix, just so they can hear the difference (they've never been in a studio that cost more than $100 a day). I used the studio's outboard gear (nothing of my own), and their Neve console.

Half of the band were there during the mixing and I left it up to them to direct me on what they wanted all the way thru.

When we left the studio later that afternoon, we went directly to one of the band-mates house to listen to the mixes on their reference stereo. Well... sneaky me... I played them my favorite of the original mix I made previously and told them it was from that day's mixing session... and guess what? They LOVED it. Then when I played them the actual mix we did that afternoon (telling them it was my original mix) they couldn't hear any serious difference... but they wanted to go with the first mix (in their mind the Neve mix - but it actually wasn't).

I did end up telling them my trickery later that day (not that I was trying to jinx it from the start - I honestly wanted to make the Neve mix sound good - I was just as surprised as they were).

I guess the gooch was I tend to mix things the same way once it's in my head no matter what gear is in front of me. Tracking is a little different... but we're not talking about that.

If you go to a place to mix and it's the house engineer mixing it, that might yield some positive results. Like another person said, if you could go in to the Neve room with 2 or 3 songs instead of a whole record, then you'll know where you stand.

Also, with an inexpensive room, you might end up spending the same amount of money (putting in more time) trying to get the same results that the Neve room might in a shorter amount of time.

-- Adam Lazlo

[thejook]

Tell ya what, I have a mix tracked entirely on ADATs through Panasonic/Ramsa DA7 mic pres (bad as it gets, fellas) and mixed on a Neve 8058 some years ago. I should mention, though, that the guy who mixed it is awesome, and that had a lot to do with it.

Shame I don't have a negative control, a mix w/o the Neve room, but at least you can hear what's possible with a good mixer and a Neve.

I'll post it this evening; I don't have it at work.

[lefthando]

Agreed. The guy doing the mixing is the most important thing. He'll tell you what studio or gear he needs to make it happen withing your budget.

[T_R_S]

No one thing will make a difference except,
1) Experience and quality of the engineer - probably the most important aspect.
2) Acoustics of the Room
3) Good monitor system
4) Quailty outboard.
If the Neve studio is in a poorly designed room with an engineer how doesn't care and has no expienece .. Your SOL there.
It's always the right combination that gives the best results
I hope this helps

[thejook]

example attached. Now that I recall, the vocals were actually tracked through a Neve broadcast pre. That's it tho, the rest was all Panasonic DA7 crap straight to ADAT.

The Neve console isn't the only thing helping the mix (though 28 ch of awesome 1084 EQ helps tremendously), but also about 30ch of outboard compression as well. And bouncing the tracks to 2" and mixing to 1/2".

[u b k]

i need to hear a mix before i can posit how much of an improvement any factor can make.

i agree that the guy working the knobs is the biggest factor by far in the results. i also agree that the gear is huge, as is the honesty of the room and monitors that the gear sits in. there is no way i could do all the the things i do without the console, analog eq for the critical elements, discrete class a summing, a few world class comps for the drums, vocals, and 2 mix, and a studer to slam it all into. and all that gear would be meaningless if i didn't have, and know, my room.

the room/gear determines the absolute potential of the mix, and the guy determines how much of that potential will become manifest.

and yes, you should absolutely be giving the powers that be a mastered mix.


gregoire
del
ubk

[joeq]

Originally Posted by AdamLazlo

...Half of the band were there during the mixing and I left it up to them to direct me on what they wanted all the way thru...


-- Adam Lazlo

so you DID sabotage the Neve mix!

[AdamLazlo]

Originally Posted by joeq

so you DID sabotage the Neve mix!

Hahahahahahahaha

[GYang]

Originally Posted by u b i k

the room/gear determines the absolute potential of the mix, and the guy determines how much of that potential will become manifest.

Nicely said. thumbsup
I raised bar in my studio equipment well over my capabilities, means I am obviously the weakest link in the whole studio.
But what a space for improvement (and lack of excuses)!
I think this is only healthy point of being gearslut.

[jackinthebox]

Originally Posted by lefthando

Agreed. The guy doing the mixing is the most important thing. He'll tell you what studio or gear he needs to make it happen withing your budget.

thanks for all your responses!
i believe the guy we've got, who incidentally really likes and seems to understand the band, is fairly insistent that we go full neve at studio he has worked in before. He's also produced a bunce of hits over the last 20 years or so, so i trust his opinion.

I would be happy to go for this if the budget was there as i do believe it would make a difference. The question is : how much?! I know the guy knows what he's doing and i'm sure he's capable of great things in a more basic studio so perhaps i should see what a day on the AMEK could come up with and take it from there.
I've been lucky enough to work in some pretty serious studios and it can be really hit and miss at the recording stage. You almost expect the gear to do the work for you sometimes. However mixwise i guess it's the same. If you get the wrong guy with an unbelievable studio, it won't work either.
Hmmmm . most confusing. At the end of the day i just want it to sound great, my dilemma is whether to convince the guys that a neve is absolutely essential or go for the cheaper option and see how good we get. The trouble is my mixer might not be able to do tryouts. he's doing us a favour anyway and it might just end up being too many options for anyone to decide what is 'good enough'.
Anybody an amek angela user? I know the pres are good and the eq is pretty cool.

I know it's an impossible thing to answer really, but i guess if we do go the neve route at least i'll know what the difference is to some degree. We live and learn eh?

[vernier]

Who ever is mixing will have a fave room and console that they're familiar with, or if it's you mixing, use equipment and a control room/monitors that you are familiar with.

[Slaytex]

Putting all sluttines aside, there becomes a point where you end up stressing out about not having certain equipment instead of focusing on getting the job done. I'm glad I can't afford all the shit I want right now because it makes me use what I have the best that I can.
Please don't take what I said the wrong way, if you can afford it, by all means, just don't stress about it if it's not looking realistic.
From what you said, if this guy can turn you're turd into something pretty cool and he likes to mix on & recommends the Neve, I'm willing to bet it's him not the Neve that contributes the most to the mix sounding way better than it did prior.
I hope this helps, best of luck.

[jackinthebox]

hi guys.
here's one the mixes i've had done previously on the UAD system. i just thought i'd put it up so you could see what i'm talking about. this is limited but not really mastered to any degree.

[lefthando]

Originally Posted by owl

thanks for all your responses!
i believe the guy we've got, who incidentally really likes and seems to understand the band, is fairly insistent that we go full neve at studio he has worked in before. He's also produced a bunce of hits over the last 20 years or so, so i trust his opinion.

If you trust his opinion then why would you not trust his selection of studio/gear?

If he tells you that the Neve is what he needs to make your turd shine, the you should follow his advice to the letter. Otherwise, why hire him at all?

[jackinthebox]

Originally Posted by lefthando

If you trust his opinion then why would you not trust his selection of studio/gear?

If he tells you that the Neve is what he needs to make your turd shine, the you should follow his advice to the letter. Otherwise, why hire him at all?

if money were no object it wouldn't be an issue. i would hire him to do the best he can. budget allowing. we're looking for downtime somewhere so with any luck we'll be ablr to get in somewhere without having to pay full whack.
sorry about my previous post not having anything attached too it! never tried it before. perhaps i'll get it right next time. Anybody got any neve downtime round london?!!

[stevep]

owl . Will a Neve make all the difference?

first, which Neve is it ?



I agree that its the guy doing the mixing that counts , and would ask him where he wants to go.



Not all Neves are great , Just because it has the N word doesn't make it a awesome desk.


The amek EQs on the Angela are great and the desk is quiet and punchy.
(Automation ...may be the weak spot)



But........ Where does your AE want to go ?



Have fun,



steve

[thejook]

Agree with the question: Which Neve?

The sample I posted was an 8058, but if it's not an 80-series...

Also, is it in good shape?

The most important thing, of course, is the AE's comfort with it and the room and the gear in it. If he's done a bunch of stuff there, and he loves it, game on.

Can he play you some stuff he mixed there against some stuff he mixed in 'lesser' rooms?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by stevep

first, which Neve is it ?



I agree that its the guy doing the mixing that counts , and would ask him where he wants to go.



Not all Neves are great , Just because it has the N word doesn't make it a awesome desk.


The amek EQs on the Angela are great and the desk is quiet and punchy.
(Automation ...may be the weak spot)



But........ Where does your AE want to go ?



Have fun,



steve

The mix guy says he prefers that room so i am pretty sure that Neve is fine.


Its basically is a bottomn line issue.


The poster wants champagne on a beer budget or he wants to see if a champagne substitute will suffice.


Everyone's given their take on it but obviously its not what he wants to hear.


He wants someone to agree with him and make him feel better about what he is trying to do.


Well sorry buddy you won't get it here.


My advice is you care about the sound of your record and you really want this guy to do it than instead of wasting time dicking around looking at studios with bottomn end prices/times, have everyone in the band pony up and pool your funds together to do it.


Or just wait till you can afford it.


"But the truth is we can't wait because their is a deadline for the release".


Well ask the label for a small advance against the sales.


"But we are over budget already and the band has wasted their advance".


Then turn to the girlfriends with credit cards.

(By the way the last part of this is just conversations i have with bands that want me to mix their stuff with no money not necessarily your situation. But it happens to often these days).

[stevep]

thethrillfactor .My advice is you care about the sound of your record and you really want this guy to do it than instead of wasting time dicking around looking at studios with bottomn end prices/times, have everyone in the band pony up and pool your funds together to do it.

Well said !

Then turn to the girlfriends with credit cards.

They can do without another pair of shoes and a day at the mall...

He wants someone to agree with him and make him feel better about what he is trying to do.

Well the girlfriend would probably agree that he should spend less......