Tape Saturation

[danna]

Just wondering where tape starts to saturate?

e.g. - if you're recording a kick drum for a rock band (pretty much want even kiks all the way), and you want to use tape as your ''compressor'', do you set the levels so RMS is reading 0dB, or +3dB or -6dB or what? or do you go off peak for tape saturation or what? i know, listen to it; but sometimes when you're starting it's hard to hear how much you'll need to use later on in the mix.

[drBill]

It depends what tape you're using and what level your machine is aligned for - +3, +5, +9, etc. 2" tape or ??? It also depends somewhat (lesser though) on the machine itself. On the ol MCI I used to align +6 with 996 or GP9 and then see if I could turn those needles into fishooks. :-) Depends a lot on the character of what you're recording too. A little tape compression sounds good on almost anything, but more is better on really grungy sounding material.

PS - unless your drummer is incredibly consistant, you'll still need to put some compression/limiting on the front end to get it consistant. Think 1176. Tape saturation isn't really a compressor in a traditional sense although it certainly compresses and rounds off transients when hit hard.

[danna]

i've got an otari 16 track 1 inch. i'm not sure what it's calibrarted at cos a guy set it up for me so i guess i'll have to check that out.

i've been told that limiting is better for kick and snare, because the transient is the bit that's the loudest, but i've also been told the slowest attack and fastest release is good on kicks and snares with an 1176. they seem to be contradicting each other to me. i've got an 1176LN so i like your suggestion!

[dillweed]

for drums and guitars; have them play and record while you monitor the third head. don't let them hear it 'cause there will be a delay.
adjust the input level to taste. especially with guitars, there is a window where the sound is the fattest. go a little too much and you will hear distortion.

you can hear exactly what the tape is doing to the sound, and the point where you go too far.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by danna

i've got an otari 16 track 1 inch. i'm not sure what it's calibrarted at cos a guy set it up for me so i guess i'll have to check that out.

i've been told that limiting is better for kick and snare, because the transient is the bit that's the loudest, but i've also been told the slowest attack and fastest release is good on kicks and snares with an 1176. they seem to be contradicting each other to me. i've got an 1176LN so i like your suggestion!

Danna, you should really get an alignment tape and learn how to align the machine yourself. You can over bias the tape or align certain channels (say K & Sn for example) to a higher level so you can slam, but not destroy your meters, etc. different brands of tape like different amounts of overbias.

Plus, if you do outside sessions, the engineer will always (at least in my experience) want the tape machine re-cal'd for their tape and levels.

Man, I'm bringing back some old deeply repressed memories. Miss the tape compression, but if I never had to align another tape machine it would be about a hundred times too soon. :-)

[u b k]

the bad news is that you can't gauge this with meters, there are too many variables.

the good news is you can't gauge this with meters, which means you get to learn a new skill with your ears. yes, it's hard to hear at first, and you'll end up screwing a few tracks up by hitting too hard.

everyone's afraid of making mistakes, but as far as i can tell that's the only way to learn. there's trial, and there's error, and you can't skip that second part. we're not doctors, nobody's life is on the line here, so go ahead and smash the piss out of that kick drum. you'll get there eventually.


gregoire
del
ubk

[danna]

Ubik, what are the benefits of over biasing? does it just not wreck your meters or is there something else it does as well?

as you can see this little baby's still brand new to me and i'm working the opposite way to most other engineers - from digitalland back to the tapeworld and didn't want to stuff a band's recording up

- looks like there's nothing for it but to split the inputs and record the tracks on 1 - 8 & 9 - 16, with 9 - 16 being backup tracks that i won't push so hard. is that gonna give me any problems i haven't thought about?

[u b k]

overbiasing affects the very top end, especially things like sibilants and the tops of cymbals. depending on your deck, the tape formula, and how you have everything else set up, heavy overbiasing may smooth things out. i experimented for a long time with all kinds of biasing schemes, each had its merits. in the end, i came back to 3db over at 16k, which seems to be standard.

multing your tracks and playing it conservative on one set and aggressive on another is a great approach. you'll probably end up using some from one set and some from the other. ime, there is no end to how far i can smash an acoustic and love it, but the snare runs a fine line and gets wimpy fast.

good luck!


gregoire
del
ubk

[vernier]

Yep ..analog meters are too slow and won't be much good for drums, but with a good recorder you'll have a ton of leeway. So, floor it!

[stevep]

Use your ears and crank it up !!


The only thing i would watch out for is the levels coming from the Tape to the desk,.... They may clip the desk inputs.

I have a Studer 820 and i would like to lower the output of the deck so it wouldn't clip the console

I haven't tried yet...... to bussy with other things.......

If anyone has some info on this i would appreciate it ,


Thanks ,




steve