At what point does your studio have merit to advertise for and charge clients?

[Geddyleewannabe]

I am starting to accumulate some good quality gear for my own personal recordings. At what point does a home studio merit charging people (and possibly even advertising), even if at a much lower percentage of the rate of local pro studios, for recording their music in your studio?

As I'm investing in better gear mainly for my personal use, I'm wondering at what point I might be able to get any return on my investments.

I'm not thinking $50-$80 per hour. I'm thinking more like $10-$15 per hour.

My guess is at least one world class level gizmo of each general category. Is that an over-estimation for getting started or an absolute no questions minimum?

Obviously engineering know how is a big part of the equation here, but in terms of finite things (gear, recording space, etc.), what are your thoughts?

[Ahellam]

Go out to local shows... find some bands and tell them you will record them for free... (for a 1 time only deal) do a good job and then start charging after that.
Do it with a couple decent bands... they will tell their friends etc...

[zakco]

IMO, once you are equipped well enought to meet potential client's basic needs in regards to performance space/simultatneous tracks etc...it really isn't in relationship to your gear list.

It's when the quality of your work stands up well enough that people are willing to pay for your services.
Period.

From that point onward, your prices should reflect:

a. the level of demand that your work is commanding
b. your capital investment
c. what the market will bear in your area

-Z-

[boulty]

I have been charging at my studio for a few months now, I have recorded my own stuff for years but I did a couple of friends bands then word spread. We get a quality that all the bands are happy with and charge £100 a day (with cheaper "one day" deals).

I think if you are getting great results then you should charge. Word of mouth will spread and you then should get other people interested.

We don't have any mega high end gear yet either. A Soundtracs MIDI PC desk, MOTU converters and ADAMs monitors. We are actually using money from bands and clients to save for better gear but for now we are getting good enough sounds that people are happy to pay anyway.

[by-tor]

Originally Posted by Geddyleewannabe

As I'm investing in better gear mainly for my personal use, I'm wondering at what point I might be able to get any return on my investments.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Originally Posted by Geddyleewannabe

Obviously engineering know how is a big part of the equation here, but in terms of finite things (gear, recording space, etc.), what are your thoughts?

uhhhhhhhh. Not gonna say much other than: Do you REALLY want the people that are only willing to pay in the $10-$15 an hour range coming to YOUR HOUSE???? Or are you gonna rent some space? Even then will you have the client base and time to even break even at that rate?

[MasterTrax]

For me it would be when I know that I have reached the point where I can reliably provide a viable and valuable service to clients. Every studio is a unique instrument defined, or shoud I say described, by almost infinite variables so you must decide for yourself. Any answers you get here will be flawed until we had a chance to record at your facility.

The two questions I might ask myself if I was considering going commercial:

Will everyone be able to work comfortably here?

and

How do my recordings sound in comparison to the other local studios?

another question I might ask me:

Why the Hell would I want to do this?

M

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Geddyleewannabe

I'm not thinking $50-$80 per hour. I'm thinking more like $10-$15 per hour.

You've got to be kidding right? $10-15? I wouldn't even turn on the AC and lights for that. Do yourself, the rest of us and the entire recording community a favor and charge a reasonable rate. It costs $10 per hour to have someone bag my groceries. I think that you should charge more than they get don't you? To have a carpenter/handyman work on my house costs $30-50 per hour. Are you that skilled? Less...more? Charge a fair rate. If you charge $10 per hour, you're going to be seen as someone who's worth that rate. Charge $50 and people will think that for some reason, you're worth it. Be professional, do a good job and they will be back.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by by-tor

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA




uhhhhhhhh. Not gonna say much other than: Do you REALLY want the people that are only willing to pay in the $10-$15 an hour range coming to YOUR HOUSE???? Or are you gonna rent some space? Even then will you have the client base and time to even break even at that rate?

This really doesn't make a difference. I've had guys in my house that paid 5 times what other bands did and they were the most ill behaved men on the face of the planet. They actually had a coke dealer show up to my house, lied to me and said he was another member of the band and then tried doin up an 8ball without even checking to see if I was cool with it. I made the dude leave, finished the recording and told them not to come back. How much a band pays probably has close to nothing to do with how much character they have when it comes to respecting their surroundings.

[by-tor]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

This really doesn't make a difference.

I don't know man. It seems like with more money on the table and paying at an hourly rate bands tend to f-around much less. Either way I don't let bands into my home studio or into my home. Just so the stuff you stated doesn't go down.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by drBill

You've got to be kidding right? $10-15? I wouldn't even turn on the AC and lights for that. Do yourself, the rest of us and the entire recording community a favor and charge a reasonable rate. It costs $10 per hour to have someone bag my groceries. I think that you should charge more than they get don't you? To have a carpenter/handyman work on my house costs $30-50 per hour. Are you that skilled? Less...more? Charge a fair rate. If you charge $10 per hour, you're going to be seen as someone who's worth that rate. Charge $50 and people will think that for some reason, you're worth it. Be professional, do a good job and they will be back.

The second to the last sentence is the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever read. "Charge people $50 and people with think that for some reason you're worth it"? My advice is charge what you feel is fair and if after a few songs you don't think you're charging enough raise the price. I went from $25 a song to $250 within about a year and a half. I just let every band that recorded know that the current rates were always subject to change and would likely go up and nobody ever had a problem with it.

[Gravity8058]

I think the real question here is how are Prod/ Engineers heavily influenced by RUSH going to make money with their studio!

All I can say is: "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"

So, there you go, problem solved!

[by-tor]

Originally Posted by Gravity8058

I think the real question here is how are Prod/ Engineers heavily influenced by RUSH going to make money with their studio!

BURN!!

I actually rarely share the fact that I am a rush fan with my clients!! And most people don't get the by-tor reference.....In fact since you got it.....You must be a Rush fan!!!!!! Oh snap the pot is calling the kettle black!!!!

[RedWallStudio]

When to charge and what to charge is all a matter of perspective. There is no golden rule either way, and anyone who tells you that you have no business charging anything or you should be charging more or less probably just has issues of their own.

I am in a similar situation; have been putting together some recording gear for my own personal use, then had some friends ask if I would record them, did some free work for them, got a little word of mouth and suddenly I was recording other bands. Made some okay cash, invested in better gear... the process continues.

Personally, I couldn't record a band for 10-15 an hour.. and would rather sit and watch Love Boat re-runs and drink Strohs than record for that meager of a rate, unless of course it was 4 hot women who wanted to record in the nude. Tangents aside, if you are doing something you completely love doing.. and money is not your first priority, then shit... charge whatever you want. I have definitely charged a band less if they were a band I really liked. I always ask for MP3s of previous stuff... helps me filter out band that annoy me... its probably discriminatory, but tough.fuuck

There will probably be a point however, maybe after some painful sessions, or when some gear craps out unexpectedly, or when your house starts getting more than usual wear and tear.. .that it will turn from being a fun hobby laced with some extra pocket change into a job... at that point, you need to get an accountant, and let him tell you what you NEED to be charging. I think asking most gearslutz what you should be charging will nearly always garner a negative response to ridiculously low rates. Alot of guys on this site do this for a living... and at 3.35 a gallon, it would be tough to live making 10 bucks an hour.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

The second to the last sentence is the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever read. "Charge people $50 and people with think that for some reason you're worth it"? My advice is charge what you feel is fair and if after a few songs you don't think you're charging enough raise the price. I went from $25 a song to $250 within about a year and a half. I just let every band that recorded know that the current rates were always subject to change and would likely go up and nobody ever had a problem with it.

Dude, preceived value is just that - preceived value. If you're charging 250 per song you need to find another business or call it a hobby. End of story. You can't afford these kinds of toys charging $250 per song. Sorry to be so harsh, but that's reality. If your trash guy is making 3X's as much as you are, you can't really call it a business.

[Jules]

Originally Posted by Geddyleewannabe

I am starting to accumulate some good quality gear for my own personal recordings. At what point does a home studio merit charging people (and possibly even advertising), even if at a much lower percentage of the rate of local pro studios, for recording their music in your studio?

As I'm investing in better gear mainly for my personal use, I'm wondering at what point I might be able to get any return on my investments.

I'm not thinking $50-$80 per hour. I'm thinking more like $10-$15 per hour.

My guess is at least one world class level gizmo of each general category. Is that an over-estimation for getting started or an absolute no questions minimum?

Obviously engineering know how is a big part of the equation here, but in terms of finite things (gear, recording space, etc.), what are your thoughts?

I have a studio floor to ceiling with cool gear... very few of my clients have a clue about much of it..For bands its not a big selling point.....

If you can play bands / artists cool recordings and tell them "I can do one like this for you" - thats all they care about IMHO

If you can make up a compilation tape of say 5 to 11 songs that has at least one or two traks on it that dont make bands / artists throw up - then you are onto a winner...

[stagefright13]

Yeah I agree 10 bucks an hour is way too cheap. I started by doing some DAT transfers for one band to CD. But I hyped them up in protools somewhat and gave them respectable volumes etc. The guy flipped out at how good they sounded. Not to say I couldn't have made them much much better. But his word of mouth was the best advertising ever. I think starting out is best when ya say 250 a song or something. Then when they want it to sound better then 100 bucks for using your higher end plugins. Sometimes my man hours for a project become excessive tho for a band I like. But we ARE in this for a reason. We love music. And getting slutty gear has it's price!

[joelpatterson]

Yeah, people could care less what gear you've got. You could have a million dollars worth and still make terrible recordings. I have seen this with mine own eyes!

The one and only thing that matters is doing work that makes people happy (and proud of this own talents.) If you can do this... then the world will be your oyster bar.

There's also a WHOLE LOTTA interpersonal stuff in dealing with musicians and bands and their ilk, egging them on to better performances, backing off when this is the best they can do... and still making them feel positive about the whole process... this is much more challenging than all of the technical stuff combined. Do you have a good feel for working with people?

[Push845]

on rates...I paid 28,000 for my Corvette C5.....If I would have seen it somewhere for 5,000, I would have asked myself "why?"....my point, Start at least $25 per hour and build from there, too low and the question "why" would come to play too often.

[Push845]

Originally Posted by stagefright13

Yeah I agree 10 bucks an hour is way too cheap. I started by doing some DAT transfers for one band to CD. But I hyped them up in protools somewhat and gave them respectable volumes etc. The guy flipped out at how good they sounded. Not to say I couldn't have made them much much better. But his word of mouth was the best advertising ever. I think starting out is best when ya say 250 a song or something. Then when they want it to sound better then 100 bucks for using your higher end plugins. Sometimes my man hours for a project become excessive tho for a band I like. But we ARE in this for a reason. We love music. And getting slutty gear has it's price!

Well Said! thumbsup

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Geddyleewannabe

I am starting to accumulate some good quality gear for my own personal recordings. At what point does a home studio merit charging people (and possibly even advertising), even if at a much lower percentage of the rate of local pro studios, for recording their music in your studio?

As I'm investing in better gear mainly for my personal use, I'm wondering at what point I might be able to get any return on my investments.

I'm not thinking $50-$80 per hour. I'm thinking more like $10-$15 per hour.

My guess is at least one world class level gizmo of each general category. Is that an over-estimation for getting started or an absolute no questions minimum?

Obviously engineering know how is a big part of the equation here, but in terms of finite things (gear, recording space, etc.), what are your thoughts?

From day one, as long as you're representing yourself and the studio accurately. Customers are capable of evaluating things for themselves when give accurate infromation.

As far as $10-15/hr. The quality of work that I'd expect if I was playing that rate, is lower than I'd expect from a new recording school grad with an MBox with stock plugins.

Meaning, at that rate, I'd expect you results to be worse than a beginner.

So if you're getting better than beginner results, you should charge more than than.


Look a a rental comany's website. They'll rent an SM57 for $20/day. Do you have 4 of that people are getting when they come to you? That's worth $10/hr by accepted professional standards. Do you have other mics and outboard pres? What about a computer, DAW and console? What about the space and the cost for electricity?

That's going to bump you up to a couple of hundered per hour right there.

What about something for your engineering services?


Why don't people get $300-400/hr fors studio time? Some do.

In the end rates are set by leverage and currently they are depressed by buyers having the leverage of a glut of inexpereinced studio owners who don't know what they're worth and lower the rateschanging the perceived value causing everyone else to do the same.


One of the many reasons music sucks these days is that studio rates are too low. New bands expect to make an album for what used to be a demo rate. Yet they're still a new band and only have a demo's worth of material. So low rates allow them to record 7 crappy songs that they wouldn't have been able to afford to record 15 years ago. Or the feel pressured to stretch they 6 song EP to a full lenght becuase they can afford the reocrding time.

Where as 15 years ago people, in the numerical sense, were paying higher rates per song. And numerical sense is a big deal.

15 years ago label would give demo deals in the $3-5k range and higher. Bands would be spending $1000-1500 per song on a demo. Now bands think $500 per song is a lot. When I say numerical sense, I'm mean to make the disctintion that we're not accounting for inflation.

My apartment rent has doubled or tripled in the past 15 years. I don't knwo that that's an accurate reference, but can you concieve of spending $3k per song to record a demo now?


Rates are set by leverage.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

The second to the last sentence is the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever read. "Charge people $50 and people with think that for some reason you're worth it"? My advice is charge what you feel is fair and if after a few songs you don't think you're charging enough raise the price. I went from $25 a song to $250 within about a year and a half. I just let every band that recorded know that the current rates were always subject to change and would likely go up and nobody ever had a problem with it.

Repating myself, but there's no such thing as fair. Rates are set by leverage.

[u b k]

if you're comfortable starting off at $10-15/hr, then start off there. you will very quickly learn 1) whether you think you're getting paid enough, and 2) whether the band thinks you're worth it.

do a job, observe, adjust, do another job, observe, adjust, etc...

there are so many reasons recording rates are more generally more affordable today than 15 years ago, it seems facile to reduce the discussion to any single factor. the biggest impact, imo, comes from the simple fact that the ability to record is no longer the province of a select few, and the basic technology is coming in at everyman prices with a lot of bang for the buck and a ton of technical info available online, free. what actually gets produced with all that technology is a separate issue, my point is that there is a powerful perception among the masses that high quality recordings are only a few inexpensive purchases away, which greatly reduces their desire to pay some yahoo to hopefully deliver the goods. factor in almost every artist's compulsive desire to control all aspects of the art, and every man's desire to learn and master a mysterious craft, and the deck is stacked against the commercial interests.

and fwiw, i was going into 8-track studios 15 years ago and doing 5 song demos with my first band for $1000, there were neumanns and akg's on the stands, a neotek desk, 1176's and eventides in the rack. affordable recording is not something new, the deals were always there to be had.


gregoire
del
ubk

[RedWallStudio]

Originally Posted by u b i k

there are so many reasons recording rates are more generally more affordable today than 15 years ago, it seems facile to reduce the discussion to any single factor. the biggest impact, imo, comes from the simple fact that the ability to record is no longer the province of a select few, and the basic technology is coming in at everyman prices with a lot of bang for the buck and a ton of technical info available online, free. what actually gets produced with all that technology is a separate issue, my point is that there is a powerful perception among the masses that high quality recordings are only a few inexpensive purchases away, which greatly reduces their desire to pay some yahoo to hopefully deliver the goods. factor in almost every artist's compulsive desire to control all aspects of the art, and every man's desire to learn and master a mysterious craft, and the deck is stacked against the commercial interests.

Well stated.

We are in a period of time where there are alot of changes happening in the recording industry, and the record industry in general. Lots of big studios are closing their doors on one side of the block, while on the other there are little DAW based studios popping up all over. But its a bit too easy and convenient to connect the dots and blame the fall of one because of the incarnation of the other... but I would say its safe to say that all the little PT studios popping up hasn't helped the big guys.

I look at it like this- What would any other creative professional charge? I don't know many graphic designers that would charge 10 or 15 an hour. Writers wouldn't either. Even non-creatives (handyman etc) are charging a minimum of 25 an hour. Hell, the polish woman that cleans my house once every two weeks gets more than 15 an hour (she's worth it by the way). Yet there is a recording studio that I saw the other day advertising on MySpace for 15 an hour... and had three people employed: A studio manager, and office manager and an engineer; and they only had one DAW! How is that possible? Minimum wage here in Illinois is $6.50 an hour. So here is a recording studio employing 3 people that are averaging 5 an hour each... and that doesn't count ANY expenses or tax.

The reality is that DAW based recording applications are really just making an impact on the general public as a whole now. So lots of guys get a hold of this new toy and go "hey, I can charge for this"... but have no clue what to base their fee structure on other than "I make 15 an hour at Home Depot, and I would rather do this". It will take time.. and I don't know how long it will be, for them to realize that running ANY business means you have to grow and prosper over the long term. And you cannot grow if your margin of profit is so slim that you cannot hire any good people to come work for you or invest in new equipment, or maintain your current gear. So in the end, it will be a hobby that earns income for these guys, or it will fail when they haven't thought out their fee basis very well. The handful that do survive will be the ones that can transition their fee structure into something that will help support a growing business... what that is though- I haven't a clue.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by drBill

Dude, preceived value is just that - preceived value. If you're charging 250 per song you need to find another business or call it a hobby. End of story. You can't afford these kinds of toys charging $250 per song. Sorry to be so harsh, but that's reality. If your trash guy is making 3X's as much as you are, you can't really call it a business.

Well I just do demo's, bands are in and out in 5-7 hours. Plus I make about 150k a year selling real estate so I don't really need you telling me what I can and can't afford. This guy probably isn't going to try and make a career recording music, sounds like he's just interested in recording demo's for bands, DUDE. What a pompous ass you are.fuuck fuuck fuuck

[everybody's x]

LOL at Jonboy

just another "that shit don't play in LA" guy, whatever, the small demo studio is a valid operation

Anyway, I figured once other bands approached me about recording and offered to pay me based on my own bands recordings. then I could go ahead and charge them.
Word of mouth is going to be your best advertisement, get some good stuff out there and the rest will follow

[lordmiguel]

cottage industry.

buy what you want, sell your time at what you want, and maybe even sell some of your wife's crochet work or tupperware. Studio people are also building web sites, doing tax prep, taking headshots - wherever there's no barrier to entry they are doing it. Don't forget Herbalife.

Obviously you'll do whatever you want, but if you are looking for a recopment of some $$ on your gear to support your hobby, thats all fine. If you're looking for a real return on your investment and labor, well there is a very high chance of failure in a home recording business (excluding liability umbrella coverage and the like) - unless you have the leverage of being a producer / musician, have excellent contacts and can produce excellent work. To recoup some $ from your gear as hobby purchases, under $25 is hardly worth the time, unless you're just looking to get 101 level experience.

cheers,

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by everybody's x

LOL at Jonboy

just another "that shit don't play in LA" guy, whatever, the small demo studio is a valid operation

Anyway, I figured once other bands approached me about recording and offered to pay me based on my own bands recordings. then I could go ahead and charge them.
Word of mouth is going to be your best advertisement, get some good stuff out there and the rest will follow

Thanks, uhhh, I think. I guess I'm just one of those guys who likes to record so much that money isn't a factor right now, maybe one day when I'm struggling to keep my $100 an hour studio up and going I'll probably be singing the same tune as a few of you.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

Well I just do demo's, bands are in and out in 5-7 hours. Plus I make about 150k a year selling real estate so I don't really need you telling me what I can and can't afford. This guy probably isn't going to try and make a career recording music, sounds like he's just interested in recording demo's for bands, DUDE. What a pompous ass you are.fuuck fuuck fuuck

jonboy - if you're making $150k a year and in St. Louis, I'd say your doing pretty well! Good for you. If I was in your position, I'd be producing bands and not charging them at all. I'd be doing it for the love of music, and trying to get them signed while holding on to some producer/publisher ownership of the project. Obviously your real estate income is SUBSIDISING your recording studio biz. And that's fine, but it's not a successful business model. Your studio biz could not support itself for $10-15 per hour or even $250 per song. If it can, I'd love to see your business plan, cause if you can make that work, I should be saving and putting away a lot more than I am right now.

Unfortunately - or fortunately as the case may be - I play in LA with the big dogs and have for over 20 years. I've got metal hanging on the wall, tons of gear and clients that back up my philosophy of what it takes to make a viable long term studio business work. That makes my opinion valid whether you agree with it or not. And I have just as much a right to my opinion as the next guy. You got my opinion and you don't like it? So sorry "dude". Pompous ass? Me? Ha!! I feel no compunction to waste my breath on you any further.

To the original poster - GLWannabee - Feel free to give away your time for whatever, I'm not forcing anyone to charge more. I was just trying to help you understand just a little aspect of what it takes to operate a sucessful BUSINESS - Preceived Value. Others above have stated similar things. Precieved Value should be important in the real estate business too and I'm quite surprised Jonboy is unaware of the concept. If you're thinking about advertizing, you're thinking about being in business for profit. If you charge next to nothing, people will think you are worth next to nothing. There's a fine line and a balance and you've got to find it. Sounds like it's somewhere between $25-$100 per hour for you. If it's only an avocation or a hobby, then that's a completely different story and I would have given completely different advice. If I'm completely off-base and you want to build a rich man's vanity studio, then I'd suggest you PM Jonboy for more details.

Cheers,

Bill

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by drBill

jonboy - if you're making $150k a year and in St. Louis, I'd say your doing pretty well! Good for you. If I was in your position, I'd be producing bands and not charging them at all. I'd be doing it for the love of music, and trying to get them signed while holding on to some producer/publisher ownership of the project. Obviously your real estate income is SUBSIDISING your recording studio biz. And that's fine, but it's not a successful business model. Your studio biz could not support itself for $10-15 per hour or even $250 per song. If it can, I'd love to see your business plan, cause if you can make that work, I should be saving and putting away a lot more than I am right now.

Unfortunately - or fortunately as the case may be - I play in LA with the big dogs and have for over 20 years. I've got metal hanging on the wall, tons of gear and clients that back up my philosophy of what it takes to make a viable long term studio business work. That makes my opinion valid whether you agree with it or not. And I have just as much a right to my opinion as the next guy. You got my opinion and you don't like it? So sorry "dude". Pompous ass? Me? Ha!! I feel no compunction to waste my breath on you any further.

To the original poster - GLWannabee - Feel free to give away your time for whatever, I'm not forcing anyone to charge more. I was just trying to help you understand just a little aspect of what it takes to operate a sucessful BUSINESS - Preceived Value. Others above have stated similar things. Precieved Value should be important in the real estate business too and I'm quite surprised Jonboy is unaware of the concept. If you're thinking about advertizing, you're thinking about being in business for profit. If you charge next to nothing, people will think you are worth next to nothing. There's a fine line and a balance and you've got to find it. Sounds like it's somewhere between $25-$100 per hour for you. If it's only an avocation or a hobby, then that's a completely different story and I would have given completely different advice. If I'm completely off-base and you want to build a rich man's vanity studio, then I'd suggest you PM Jonboy for more details.

Cheers,

Bill

Sorry for the pompous thing, I just felt it a little disheartening telling someone to charge more than they feel they're worth. I completely understand your point and I need to learn to not argue when there really isn't a point in arguing with someone who does it for a living. Yes I do ok, and I am actually doing this more for the love than money, and producing is something I'd seriously like to get into. I also want to apologize because I in no way can comment on what it takes to run a studio and I probably shouldn't have said pompous. So again apologies to all, but most of all drbill. Good luck to all in future endevours. Oh and if you saw a picture of where I record I hardly think you'd refer to it as "vanity".

[big country]

If I saw a corvet selling for five gs I would buy it and
sell it for 28,000 dollars to some guy who wouldnt
buy it for 5,000.
I think the problem here is studios are getting
way to cheap now adays and people in this
Industry are a little scared.
Im a carpenter and when I see a chile working
for ten dollars an hour, it pisses me off.
that Illegal threatins my job .
thiers no way Id swing a hammer for ten bucks
an hour.