Modern Mixing for Volume aka How do I get that modern ass sound?

[glitch]

So, I was listening to My Chemical Romance. Good material, but appalling production.

How does one go about creating a completely lifeless, mechanical, dull sound?

The question is serious.

I need a step by step. We can then use that as a what not to do when you're mixing list.

Now, I've not been able to hear any of these recordings in a mixed but unmastered state, so the effects are compounded by mastering, I'm sure.


Some Observations:

Kick drum level is high, but the kick is not punchy, nor does it produce much low end. It's simply loud and dull and "middy".

Kick and Snare sound as though they were performed by a drum machine that didn't have multisamples or any velocity sensitivity.

Guitars do not have much above 3kHz and don't seem to have that 90's 3k bump for bite.

Overheads are similarly dull and HP'd and LP'd like the kick. No punch.

Vocal is the brightest part of the mix, but still not particularly bright. Vocal has an amazing amount of compression and very little reverb.

Whispers are louder than screaming.

The end result is very dull sounding, void of ANY volume change whatsoever by ANY instrument, and not punchy. However, it's loud.


Questions:

Maybe it's dull because the ME's rolling off the highs so they don't oversaturate and clip so much?

Why have there been better sounding records that were louder?

How does one go about mixing and mastering to create one of these ass-sounding albums? Seriously.

Can we break it appart?

How can I get that kick tone?

How can I tell that I'm not getting anything resembling "bright"?

Are albums like this mastered in stems?

How do I get that vocal sound?

How much highs and lows do I roll off of each instrument and where?

[Samplecraze]

This doesn't necessarily mean the ME screwed things up.
It sound to me more like a bad mix.

Unless you know how the signal path was set and what mixing techniques, dynamics, efx, A/D, D/A etc...you will only have the resultant material to reference to.

Any of the above could be a factor in a poor mix, along with the ME and countless other factors.

You could, however, dissitate the mix and go from there with recommendations for what 'should have been done'.

Huge topic.

[GearBit]

I think if you just follow your own observations then you are there and a career in modern rock production will follow!
Personally I don't buy it because people dont give a rats ass what it sounds like as long as it looks good and is catchy. I make sure my bands look good, write catchy songs that are relevant to the teen in their lonely teenage bedroom and then make it sound as big as I like!

[picksail]

You have to begin by both understanding and accepting the difference between art and corporate interest.

These productions then become much easier.

[robd]

I have never used it myself, so take this with a grain of salt, but everyone I know says that waves L3 is the goto plug for that saound.

[Zeppelin4Life]

the L2 and L3 are great for that stuf. Does it sound good? Well. It does it's job well, put it that way.

[dubrichie]

Originally Posted by glitch

that modern ass sound

indeed. it is very a modern sound and it does indeed sound like ass. and not a pretty ass. just nasty ass. bad ass. but not diggin, badass. just bad, bad ass.

oh lord, won't you buy me a mercedes benz...

... i must make amends.

oh baby,
shine a light on you,
oh yeah,
make every song you sing,
your favourite tune...

i'm afraid that i can't help you on your quest, but am not sorry.

regards,

richie.

[DontLetMeDrown]

I'm going to chime in here since "Three Cheers for Sweet Revenge" is one of my favorite CDs and one that I use as a reference CD when working with "emo" bands. ::puts flame suit on::

I agree that it is squashed more than any CD I've ever heard, but it most certainly does not have bad production. The production on this CD is top notch. I find it curious that you have written a laundry list of complaints, yet you are here asking how to achieve the same results. WTF is that?

You say... "Kick drum level is high, but the kick is not punchy, nor does it produce much low end. It's simply loud and dull and "middy".",

then you go on to say, "How can I get that kick tone?"

You dont have to bash the CD just so you can fit in with the "Loudness War" cronies. That CD rocks because it is packed with tons of emotion. A cranked L2 is not going to take that away.

[theblue1]

I listened to "Under Pressure."

It wasn't quite as bad -- in some ways -- as the first post make me think it was going to be.

But it STILL made me want to rip my ears off the side of my head with rusty pliars. (The music really makes me want to puke, but that's another story, innit?)


The drums are extraordinarily wimpy. Shockingly so. As suggested, they should serve as a model for How Not To Do It.

It sounds like they squeezed the shit out of every individual track and then went back and squeezed the shit out of the mix, all the while cranking high end which resulted in some odd HF anomalies as auditioned via 'factory' 160 WMA (via MusicMatch On Demand subscription service) over my everyday listening NS10m's.

Really, truly, gawdawful music. IMHO, of course.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

... The production on this CD is top notch. I find it curious that you have written a laundry list of complaints, yet you are here asking how to achieve the same results. WTF is that? .

Back in my day we called it sarcasm.

Maybe we really ARE living in the Post-Ironic Age...


So... anyhow... enjoying DontLetMeDrown's posts in other areas, I thought maybe I ought to give the band another shot... I'm listening to "Helena" from "Three Cheers..."

OK... now THIS really DOES sound to me JUST like the music glitch was describing. This sounds like utter... what's that word you kids use? Ah yeah... ass. Sorry, DLMD, we all have different tastes. One man's nectar is another man's bile... This strikes me as pretty bilious. It is, indeed, utterly squashed, the high end is all but missing... there's not a cubic centimeter of "air" in any part of the mix... it is, indeed, ass in my book. Really crummy, dull, thudding ass.

But at least the song is not nearly as twink as "Under Pressure."

[glitch]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

I'm going to chime in here since "Three Cheers for Sweet Revenge" is one of my favorite CDs and one that I use as a reference CD when working with "emo" bands. ::puts flame suit on::

I'm assuming that's the album I have. Has Helen and So Long, Good Night.

I agree that it is squashed more than any CD I've ever heard, but it most certainly does not have bad production. The production on this CD is top notch. I find it curious that you have written a laundry list of complaints, yet you are here asking how to achieve the same results. WTF is that?

Maybe for the modern ass sound it is spot-on. I definitely don't like the sound, distortion, etc. However, my post was pretty clear - how to do it so we can NOT do it.

There seem to be two types of modern loud records. This type sounds much worse than the other type.

More examples of this type are the last two Incubus albums, Velvet Revolver, Sum 41, etc.

That category of sound has no, or even reverse, dynamics, no punch, and a very dull overall tone.

The other category is harder to find, but it's punchy, and much brighter, and just as loud (or louder). (Flame Suits on) The Used first album is in this category.

You dont have to bash the CD just so you can fit in with the "Loudness War" cronies. That CD rocks because it is packed with tons of emotion. A cranked L2 is not going to take that away.

Agree, and the first thing I said about the album is that the material is good.

The production sounds like ass. I actually threw Incubus' Morning View out my car window when I got it because it has the same sound. It's just... ungood.

Matt

[theblue1]

Um... let me just say -- or reiterate -- in light of my slaggy comments, that musical taste is completely subjective. I apparently simply do not care for emo (I'm thinkin' that's what this is, yeah?)... I hate walls of crunch, particularly combined with whiney, keening vocals (keep in mind, I'm cursed with a whiney irritating voice myself, in my view, so I have some sympathy, here, for my fellow whiney voiced brothers). I grew up on rock, was heavily involved with first wave punk/new music (but far less with second wave (although I engineered a chunk of it) and then big distaste for retro-kiddy punk. But emo is simply incomprehensible to me. I can't understand why someone would make music like that, for the most part.


Anyhow, maybe it was especially unfair context to listen to MCR, since I had to turn off some lovely Mozart by the Prague String Quartet (lots of air, in THAT recording ) to check out MCR... so... there's the context.

Everyone's mileage varies.

[audiomichael]

I think MCR are pretty great, and Gerard is a great singer. They didn't need to obliterate the mix like that. I really like loud mixes and I'm not usually offended with L2 and distortion, but they went a little far on "Three Cheers...". The vocal is burried, and it distorts when he sings loud, and you can barely hear the drums. It sounds to me like they slammed the mix too loud into the console with all of the faders pegged, then L2'd it.

A similar effect probably could be had by going out of the box into a pair of 1272's or a Fatso or HEDD and over slamming the audio into it.

[Dave Derr]

That cracks me up. Did you do that avatar yourself?

BTW, is that a "SUCK" switch on the lower left? I usually leave those OFF unless I dont like the client.

[danasti]

Originally Posted by glitch

So, I was listening to My Chemical Romance. Good material, but appalling production.

How does one go about mixing and mastering to create one of these ass-sounding albums? Seriously.

Since your laundry list of problems are so specific just do the opposite, seriously.

contact Tom Baker. I'm serious (or ryan ball www.checkmatesr.com/ryan_bio.html )

http://precisionmastering.com/engineers-tom.htm

Tell him that your ears are the gods honest truth and your reference system is a crowned jewel that never lies. Send examples of everything this fool got wrong.

These guys probably don't know how much they suck and might not have access to a listening environment as accurate as yours or enough talent to hear as well as you. You are living proof that some have it and some don't right?

Which album did you hear? Through what dac/turntable/mixer/preamp, cables, speakers and ceiling height/absorbtion? They might like to know how a genius would set all that up before he makes a definite "ass" judgement on their hard work.

All I can say is I'm looking forward to finally hearing music produced the right way.

[glitch]

Originally Posted by danasti

Since your laundry list of problems are so specific just do the opposite, seriously.

contact Tom Baker. I'm serious (or ryan ball www.checkmatesr.com/ryan_bio.html )

http://precisionmastering.com/engineers-tom.htm

Tell him that your ears are the gods honest truth and your reference system is a crowned jewel that never lies. Send examples of everything this fool got wrong.

These guys probably don't know how much they suck and might not have access to a listening environment as accurate as yours or enough talent to hear as well as you. You are living proof that some have it and some don't right?

Which album did you hear? Through what dac/turntable/mixer/preamp, cables, speakers and ceiling height/absorbtion? They might like to know how a genius would set all that up before he makes a definite "ass" judgement on their hard work.

All I can say is I'm looking forward to finally hearing music produced the right way.

There are plenty of albums done that still sound good. Perhaps rather than how is the question "Why?".

Why is that kind of production acceptable and, even worse, VIABLE?

Why must you be a jackass about it and tell me that my ears are broken if I don't like it?

Each element's sound is moved so far from its fundamental that it's only recongnizable by the context, not by the tone.

So much effort seems to be going in to making the instruments sound very much unlike the instrument.


You also suggest that I'm simply blaming the mastering engineers - not so (notice the thread title). I noted that the ME probably compounded the problems. I also doubt that Tom thinks that it's honestly a good sounding record. If he does, then I apologize for slagging his work.

If My Chemical Romance were a bunch of nobody's, everyone would agree with me and they'd have no defenders, but since the album is a certified hit, it should be defended?

[DontLetMeDrown]

Did you ever think maybe they wanted that sound for the band/album?

I think it is selling ok

Maybe these guys know what sells?

I love this CD and I think the sound of the album works with the vibe and style of the band's personality & songs.

[glitch]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

Maybe these guys know what sells?

Scary.

Albums still sounded very good 10 years ago and sold very well, and there was interest in longevity of the artist.

There are many modern records that sound exactly like MCR. Thankfully, there are many that don't.

Incubus' Morning View was the first record I heard with that MCR kind of sound. IIRC, they were recording their guitar and bass parts with wireless systems?!?! No wonder it sounded so, um, ass. Reverse dynamics (where things are actually quieter when they "kick-in", and just all around first to be loudest mastering snafu.

Oh yeah, most remasters now sound this way (Nirvana Best of, for example), so it is obviously intentional.

Why?

Loud can be done to still sound pretty good - we're just not hearing it.

[theblue1]

Suckiness is in the ear of the beholder, for sure. Still, I find it dumbfounding that people actually think a mix like "Helena" has any sonic merits whatsoever. All I can say is, "Wow."

But, then, I don't much like the underlying music, anyhow. (Well, make that, I REALLY don't like it.) Other people clearly do and, hey, what the hell, it's a big world, and as slipperman points out, we'll all be DEAD, soon enough.

I suppose it IS time to get back to work...

[audiomichael]

Back to the original question: I think the best way to get something superloud and sounding decent is to do the "mastering" while you mix. Get the mix 80% there, the bust out your Mastering EQ and Limiter (L2), and start crushing. Probably your mix will sound a bit out of whack, then begin the mix tweaks to repair some of what the crush is doing. Also, then you'll be A/Bing your "mastered" mix in progress, with a mastered CD mix.

[heathen]

If you wanna make your drums wimpy use some really hard comp with a very fast attack ,under 2 ms. That will destroy them. Actually do that on every track and yer 90% of the way to a real shitty sound. Then do that on the stereo buss as well and thats 99% of the way there , the other 1% who knows?

[wwittman]

Here's one thing I know for a fact:

You WON'T do a good job getting something you think is crappy.

Just like all those people who think "SURE i can write one of them crappy country hits in my sleep"
they never can
nor can the country guys produce rock records even though they all think THEY can in THEIR sleep.

if you don't really GET the genre, you won't be able to do it well.

I know YOU think it's crap so there IS no "well".
But to those who LIKE it, your version will always miss.

If you think My Chemical Romance sounds bad... then you will NEVER do a good job emulating that sound.
That sound is acheived by people who are really INTO that sound.
Not who are dismissive and condescending about it.

[planet red]

Rich Costey did those mixes and he can do some good sounding stuff. It sounds like they were going for something weird with the record. Trying to be lofi while still having a modern produced sound.

I think Rich Costey does a good job of doing less bright records that still have a lot of clarity. His stuff sounds REALLY good on the radio.

Personally I think there are better sounding records, but that sound works for that band.

That record has actually been out for awhile. Took a long time to catch on.

[u b k]

so i just stopped by the itunes store to get a sample of what this discussion is about.

okay then.

at the risk of lopping this discussion off at it's feet (as if i actually have that power), the answer to the question 'how do i get this sound' seems abundantly simple to me: use nothing but a daw and plug-ins to do your mixing and mastering.

to be clear, i'm not saying you can't create a more open or dynamic sound itb, because i know it can be done, guys here are doing it. all i'm saying is that doing the entire mix in pt makes it pretty easy to get this sound, flat, lifeless, processed, utterly lacking in sparkle or mojo. in fact, you have to work hard and be really talented to *not* have itb sound like this.

lynn fuston recently reminded me (in a post) that bad mixes and productions have always been with us, and in abundance. i knew that, i've reminded others of that, but it was good to be reminded. granted, the particular form of badness morphs thru the decades, but occasionally andrea true connection's "more, more, more" comes up in my itunes rotation and, well, you get the picture.

'how do you like it' indeed.


gregoire
del ubik

[OVERNIGHT]

Originally Posted by wwittman

Here's one thing I know for a fact:

You WON'T do a good job getting something you think is crappy.

Just like all those people who think "SURE i can write one of them crappy country hits in my sleep"
they never can
nor can the country guys produce rock records even though they all think THEY can in THEIR sleep.

if you don't really GET the genre, you won't be able to do it well.

I know YOU think it's crap so there IS no "well".
But to those who LIKE it, your version will always miss.

If you think My Chemical Romance sounds bad... then you will NEVER do a good job emulating that sound.
That sound is acheived by people who are really INTO that sound.
Not who are dismissive and condescending about it.

Word.

[GearBit]

Again....It don't matter what it sounds like. That album and many others sound shite but sell plenty. Other albums sound great and still sell plenty. Stop worrying about it and mix any damn way you like. You will have more success though if you are mixing a current "hot" band.

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by planet red

Rich Costey did those mixes and he can do some good sounding stuff. It sounds like they were going for something weird with the record. Trying to be lofi while still having a modern produced sound.

I think Rich Costey does a good job of doing less bright records that still have a lot of clarity. His stuff sounds REALLY good on the radio.

Personally I think there are better sounding records, but that sound works for that band.

That record has actually been out for awhile. Took a long time to catch on.

Bingo...me thinks you speak the truth.

[Led]

I was driving home from a mix late last night and it's school holidays here. I stopped at 7 11 and saw a bunch of 15 ish year olds just hangin around outside carrying on and jumping on each other and thought what is the appeal in that...just hanging around the street at midnight jumpin on your buds back and pissin in a bush...then I remembered how cool I thought it was to hang out in the streets late night when I was a teen. For me emo's a bit like that. I don't sit in my bedroom with my hari dyed black thinking everybody's against me nowdays, but I get that a lot of teens do. God bless em.
"Nobody loves me everybody hates me think I'll eat some worms" - that was emo in my day.

[briefcasemanx]

Originally Posted by Led

I was driving home from a mix late last night and it's school holidays here. I stopped at 7 11 and saw a bunch of 15 ish year olds just hangin around outside carrying on and jumping on each other and thought what is the appeal in that...just hanging around the street at midnight jumpin on your buds back and pissin in a bush...then I remembered how cool I thought it was to hang out in the streets late night when I was a teen. For me emo's a bit like that. I don't sit in my bedroom with my hari dyed black thinking everybody's against me nowdays, but I get that a lot of teens do. God bless em.
"Nobody loves me everybody hates me think I'll eat some worms" - that was emo in my day.

hahaha, great post

[recall]

OK.

CLA talks about mixing MCR here:

Article Preview - Secrets Of The Mix Engineers: Chris Lord-Alge