Recording guitar & vocal with two fig 8's

[SUPADUPA]

I have a project coming up with a singer song writer , who wants to record live ...

So ... when recording acoustic guitar and a vocal together ...

the accepted method is to use two Figure eight microphones ...

My question is WHERE do you place them ? ... thanks !

[audiothings]

approach 1

go blumlein. Crossed fig-8s in an x/y config. Make sure all direct sounds are coming from the forward facing quadrant. Move the pair around till the appropriate balance is reached. This will probably give you the most natural, if slightly less 'immediate' or 'punchy' or clear sound. Remember you are capturing the total sound here and not the individual vocal and guitar components.

approach 2

maximum rejection happens at 90 degrees, as far as a fig-8 mic is concerned. Placement is such that the vocalist's mouth is at 90 degrees from the guitar microphone, and most of the guitar's sound is at 90 degrees from the vocal mic. If you are using a ribbon, don't be afraid to mic the guitar from the direction of the guitar's nut... the proximity effect will more than compensate.

hypercardioids might also work for approach 2.

let us know how it goes.

[SUPADUPA]

Thanks for the reply ... I have two U67's and two channels of Neve 1064 ...

so this is what I'll be using ... I think that blumlein would sound great ...

but wont give me the control I think I'll need with the vocal ...

I'm a little freaked , because every single time I've tried this ...

there is always a very audible amount of phase shit ...

And I need to make a whole album like this ...

there has to be a way to do it !

[aussie_techie]

last week i used a 414 in figure 8 just above the sound hole and a cardioid mics pointing around the bridge and for vocals. i was very happy with the results.
There will always be some bleed but I had enough isolation to compress and add reverb on the individually tracks. ill use a similar setup this week as well.
ive found the right compressors are important when tracking like this.

[Nutmeg II.]

Originally Posted by SUPADUPA

I have a project coming up with a singer song writer , who wants to record live ...

So ... when recording acoustic guitar and a vocal together ...

the accepted method is to use two Figure eight microphones ...

My question is WHERE do you place them ? ... thanks !

If the album is all git and vocals only, I wouldn't worry to much about catching the both as isolated as you could, but try to catch a good balance of them.

Anything from cardiod on the individuals to a ORTF... just find the sweet spot in the room (and find the right room) to record it. BTW a stereo mic pair could not only be placed L&R but up&down to place it between the git and vocal...

Another idea would be to mic the two with a single mic on a distance (not to far or to close either) and ad the second mic in close for the signal that needs a little more support.

P.S.: I wonder if something like a ORTF Pair with a Jecklin disc type of think inbetween it, would help you even more to seperate the two signals.

[Nutmeg II.]

P.P.S.: If you run into a "audible amount of phase shit" you always could delay the guitar some ms to fix it.

[nathanvacha]

Or trick the guitarist into recording it direct and singing close into a nice dynamic mic... which is effectively one take with two discrete tracks -- and then "double" each part separately.

If it's good, you could even keep some of the original take.

just a thought

[Berolzheimer]

I think the key here is to favor the vocal over the guitar sound. I've done this with a good cardiod on the vocal, and a fig8 on the guitar with the null pointed at the singer's mouth- I'm not too worried about the guitar in the vocal mic, more about the vocal in the guitar mic. Get the singer to do a take of clicking noises with his or her mouth, then use those to visually time align the 2 channels. The guitar will get a little smeary, but it's more important to get a good sounding vocal IMO.
And if there's a PU in the guitar track that also as another option for mixing.

[RKrizman]

Here's a trick that works great for me. I take a music stand and adjust it so the part that holds the music is horizontal instead of vertical. I tape a little foam to each side of it and slide it in between the singer's mouth and guitar. Not as intrusive as it sounds. Works whether the artist is seated or standing.

When it comes to just a solo singer/guitarist the one thing that never works for me is trying to overdub the vocal on top of the guitar. The symbiotic relationship of the two is an intrinsic part of the beauty of the moment.

-R

[compoundz]

Originally Posted by Nutmeg II.

P.P.S.: If you run into a "audible amount of phase shit" you always could delay the guitar some ms to fix it.

Get one of the Little Labs IBP Analog Phase Alignment boxes.

http://www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html

[acousmatic]

im gonna have to disagree with berolz...

the vocal for me is always the most important part.
therefore guitar bleed into the vocal mic is totally unaceptable.

I tend to figure 8 both sources, but sometimes cardiod the gat.

the idea (i like to think) is to have the most separated vocal take in order to tweak it to perfection! of course we want this with gat also but i find i often have the guitar sitting alot lower in the mix anyway.

especially if the singer is really soft but thier gat is really loud.

peace!

sorry for schpellin.

[acousmatic]

Berolz...

what i mean to say is that we agree on

"the key here is to favor the vocal over the guitar sound"

but disagree on

"I'm not too worried about the guitar in the vocal mic, more about the vocal in the guitar mic"


peace

[giraffe]

i also find that the problem is usually the vox in the git mic.
for whatever reason the git bleed in the vox mic has never been that bad.

vox=superdynamic i guess.

[uncle duncan]

In the Dylan movie, in the recording studio scene, they had a vocal mic at chest level, pointing up at his mouth and a mic near the top of the guitar pointing down at the strings, and that stuff came out sounding pretty good. Someone else on this board probably knows what the mics were.

[SUPADUPA]

Hey thanks guys ..... photo's anyone ? ...

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by SUPADUPA

Hey thanks guys ..... photo's anyone ? ...

sorry forgot to take a camera today
the guitarist kept moving so there was no exact placment but it sounded great anyway. just aim towards the fingerboard a little above the sound hole, always listen to where it sounds best and if in doubt add more mics .

[Berolzheimer]

I guess to clarify, what I meant is that if the guitar sound that's bleeding into the vocal mic gets a little screwy when I treat the vocal, I'm ok with that as long as I get a good vocal sound- and generally I like the sound of cardioids better on vocals.

That said I've also seen it done with an x-y or blumlein pair in vertical alignment, which would minimize phase interaction, and one can move the pair around to adjust the balance between the vox & guitar. I think this would especially work well on loud singers.

[studilaroche]

i've had great succes (meaning little bleed) using a Lawson L47 aiming 'up' through the voice, so it's rejecting the guitar below, and an NT5/KM184 facing sort of 'down' towards the guitar, thus rejecting the voice. depends alot on how loud the singer is. with relatively quiet singers, i've been able to take the voice out of the mix completely. take the time to place the microphones well and you'll be pleased.

ben