Maxed out levels too soon?

[dsound]

Wasn't sure where to post this but this looks like a good place to start...

I feel a little strange asking this but here goes...I've been doing commercial work for TV for a year now and I've had to become not only the composer but the mixer as well. Because of the speed at which things need to be done, I have to do a little of everything all at once. One thing that always throws me in the workflow is how fast I max out my levels using PTLE. Even when I am finished and the master track is hitting red, I will compare it to a commercially produced track and the that track is always still louder. Yes, I know that it was most likely mastered for levels. Do I need t o just turn everything way down to leave headroom and then apply my own mastering at the end? Is it ok if the master track touches red but isn't necessarily pinned?

Thanks

[cush]

Are you talking about just the music, or the final mix of the commercial, including VO and FX? If it's the former, I'm sure there's lots of talk in the mastering forum about this.

[dsound]

It's pre VO. I usually route all of the music tracks to a sub master and the VO right to the master. I will check the mastering forum. Thanks...

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by dsound

Wasn't sure where to post this but this looks like a good place to start...

I feel a little strange asking this but here goes...I've been doing commercial work for TV for a year now and I've had to become not only the composer but the mixer as well. Because of the speed at which things need to be done, I have to do a little of everything all at once. One thing that always throws me in the workflow is how fast I max out my levels using PTLE. Even when I am finished and the master track is hitting red, I will compare it to a commercially produced track and the that track is always still louder. Yes, I know that it was most likely mastered for levels. Do I need t o just turn everything way down to leave headroom and then apply my own mastering at the end? Is it ok if the master track touches red but isn't necessarily pinned?

Thanks

Sounds like a gain staging problem to me. Not sure how it is in LE but in HD supposedly when you turn down the master fader it produces the same results as turning down all the tracks down at once.

Anyway, you want to avoid hitting red on the master fader. Some people just pull it down until there is no red, others put trim plugins on individual tracks (also useful to avoid clipping plugins), basically what it cracks down to is making sure your workflow dictates that you don't clip the master bus.

Getting levels to match commercially mastered tracks is an entirely different subject, but if you avoid clipping tracks, plugins, and the master bus (don't go into the red) at all costs during the mix process, the mix will be able to handle things like brickwall limiting better since there won't be the added distortion from the digital clipping.

Hope that helps.

[Jenre]

If you're recording at 24-bit you really don't need to be hitting the meters anywhere above -10. In fact I find it's better to keep it around -14 (i am an amatuer but i still stand by this). You're not really gaining anything by recording at a higher level at 24-bits and it will make the mixing stage a lot easier, and I think, produce better results.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dsound

Wasn't sure where to post this but this looks like a good place to start...

I feel a little strange asking this but here goes...I've been doing commercial work for TV for a year now and I've had to become not only the composer but the mixer as well. Because of the speed at which things need to be done, I have to do a little of everything all at once. One thing that always throws me in the workflow is how fast I max out my levels using PTLE. Even when I am finished and the master track is hitting red, I will compare it to a commercially produced track and the that track is always still louder. Yes, I know that it was most likely mastered for levels. Do I need t o just turn everything way down to leave headroom and then apply my own mastering at the end? Is it ok if the master track touches red but isn't necessarily pinned?

Thanks

Mastering is an entirely different thing than mixing, and you can easily get an inferiority complex comparing the loudness of your mix against the loudness of mastered CDs. Don't mix for absolute loudness, mix for sound quality. Just turn up your monitor until it sounds loud enough for you, ensure your meters don't EVER hit the red, and enjoy yourself. Then, after the mix is in the can, you can look into mastering processing.

[dsound]

Yes, this definitely helps! I guess what happens is that I just start tracking to get the ideas out and all faders are at 0, unless the plugin has a very loud out put. I will try bringing everything way down and after the mix, try experimenting with a multiband comp or L2 for mastering.....so much to learn!

BTW....just got Charles Dye video on mixing...looking forward to it

[nathanvacha]

Well, I ususally start with faders at zero too... and adjust input trims, or the input level until I have proper levels with the faders set at zero... but I don't leave them there for the remainder of the mix... Just start turning things down.

[yumdrum]

Originally Posted by dsound

Wasn't sure where to post this but this looks like a good place to start...

I feel a little strange asking this but here goes...I've been doing commercial work for TV for a year now and I've had to become not only the composer but the mixer as well. Because of the speed at which things need to be done, I have to do a little of everything all at once. One thing that always throws me in the workflow is how fast I max out my levels using PTLE. Even when I am finished and the master track is hitting red, I will compare it to a commercially produced track and the that track is always still louder. Yes, I know that it was most likely mastered for levels. Do I need t o just turn everything way down to leave headroom and then apply my own mastering at the end? Is it ok if the master track touches red but isn't necessarily pinned?

Thanks

i feel your pain, hell i'll settle for my mix to be as loud as my buddies vs-2480. I know i have the tools to pull this off, i just haven't cracked the code yet. i have a 002 factory running PTLE7 with some decent outboard gear. rosetta800,distressors, great river, germanium,824s(the usual suspects). I get my mix sounding awesome through the mackies all syked up to BTD, and then...well let's just call it shrinkage!
I've tried everything i can think of from recording low levels and slapping on dynamics including things like ozone3 and duende SSL, to recording as hot as i can get it and then squashing it a bit in the master. it seems the levels are always wanting to clip before I can get any volume on the finished product.
And just for reference, the comparison to the 2480 was done on my ddrum4 kit set at the same level, so it is an apple to apple comparison.
Anyway 2480 was recording at around -12, slapped on the ITB mastering tools (couldn't be any easier) and va-la(sp) finished product that rivaled quality and volume of some commercial disks that i have heard. What the hell??????

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by yumdrum

Anyway 2480 was recording at around -12, slapped on the ITB mastering tools (couldn't be any easier) and va-la(sp) finished product that rivaled quality and volume of some commercial disks that i have heard. What the hell??????

I'd hate to say it, but I think you're being impressed by all that distortion... The Roland is a distortion maker---there's something about that bus that's really wrong. I swear there's some hidden bad dynamics-processing going on in the Roland boxes.

For eveyone who's being seduced by "the dark side", I urge you to convert your clipped, dynamics-challenged, mix to MP3 at 64 kbps or lower and then listen. To paraphrase the Clinton democratic campaign slogan: "It's the end product, stupid."

The NEW RADIO will not only be dynamically challenged, it will also have been sliced, diced, coded and decoded with low bitrate audio! And don't forget streaming...

If you want to get something closer to CD quality where the rubber meets the road, then don't smash your product in the mix or mastering. The issue of "competitive loudness with other CDs" becomes a bunch of blind lemmings all jumping into the sea to commit suicide.

BK

[Mike Tholen]

Be wise young Jedi, Observe 0dB VU while tracking...

Be wise with your levels coming from your analog gear into your converter...

No need to overdrive your analog gear to get a loud level into the converter, your recording at 24 bit aren't you?

Your ITB mixes will open up, and you'll struggle less with the ITB mixer...

Observe 0 dB VU.


Best Regards-Mike Tholen

[yumdrum]

Originally Posted by Mike Tholen

Be wise young Jedi, Observe 0dB VU while tracking...

Be wise with your levels coming from your analog gear into your converter...

No need to overdrive your analog gear to get a loud level into the converter, your recording at 24 bit aren't you?

Your ITB mixes will open up, and you'll struggle less with the ITB mixer...

Observe 0 dB VU.


Best Regards-Mike Tholen

Yes, 24/48 has been what i've been recording at. i realize that i have a $hit load to learn yet. here is how i've been chaining and running.
great river pre to distressor to rosetta (via adat/lightpipe) rosetta in and back out of the 002 board.

in other tests with my soundelux U195 i set the distressor at manufactures suggestion and set my input and master faders on 002 to 0db. I then raise the level of the great river until it is kissing the yellow LED on the loudest point. Is this incorrect?
I also notice that the LED on the rosetta never hit the over Light... By itself it is way to low after bouncing, so I slap on the Ozone on the master and push the mix up until the master is just before clip. Is this incorrect? Am I BTD incorrectly? Should I switch to internal for BTD?

Anyone around the south florida area that want's to make some xtra $ showing a newbie on his own gear?

I am very eager to learn and will take any advice with an open mind. I also have DVD tutorials on the way, and I am signing up for an online digidesign course in September.

Thanks for your help.