snare bleed in kick mic...

[af_analog]

Hey guys, our drummer got a new kit, a gretsch...it has an extremely loud snare, which I am loving for recording, but my kick mic always ends up with too much snare bleed. When it comes time to mix and I want to accentuate the beater, I end up bringin in the obnoxious snare bleed which turns my great snare sound into turds. If I compensate the kick mic placement I am losing my kick sound. What do you guys do to battle this problem. I have tried blankets over the kick but this seems to change the tone of the drum too much and I don't gain that much isolation...I think a lot of the bleed comes through the batter head as well. What to do, what to do. Any suggestions are welcome!

CHEERZ, and happy Canada Day weekend!

P.S. I don't want to resort to gating either drum cause some of the drum fills we are dealing with have a lot of "close" kick and snare hits so this isn't really effective.

[Nutmeg II.]

WOW! I never had a real problem with snare in kick mic!

-Maybe you need to develop a heavier foot work.
-You could place a sheet of wood between the kick and the snare.

-Were is your mic placed? What mic you use? How low do you set your snare stand? What angle? ...

I mean if the snare bottom is angled towards the kick and the snare stand is so low that you are on batterhead hight and you place your insid kick mic just were the snare is... no wonder you got a problem!

If you place your kick mic right at the center were the beater hits than this should be less of a problem.

If you need more topend you could move the mic closer to the rim, but try the side that is farest from the snare!
If you realy need more topen try retuning the heads, try a different head AND try a different mic! Sometimes a SM57 is just what you need for the click.

...

I would say give use a little more info on your recording setup.

P.S.: There is always the posibility to ad a sample to the kick for more click/oomph/whatever.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by af_analog

Hey guys, our drummer got a new kit, a gretsch...it has an extremely loud snare, which I am loving for recording, but my kick mic always ends up with too much snare bleed. When it comes time to mix and I want to accentuate the beater, I end up bringin in the obnoxious snare bleed which turns my great snare sound into turds. If I compensate the kick mic placement I am losing my kick sound. What do you guys do to battle this problem. I have tried blankets over the kick but this seems to change the tone of the drum too much and I don't gain that much isolation...I think a lot of the bleed comes through the batter head as well. What to do, what to do. Any suggestions are welcome!

CHEERZ, and happy Canada Day weekend!

P.S. I don't want to resort to gating either drum cause some of the drum fills we are dealing with have a lot of "close" kick and snare hits so this isn't really effective.

I kinda kind of wish I had that problem....most of the drummers I record don't hit the snare loud enough to consistantly cut through the mix, much less through the kick drum mic!
As to your question;
Is the kick mic placed inside the kick, or outside?
I did have a similar problem like yours when I was starting out on an Tascam 8 track 18 years ago.. I was recording everything in a bedroom, I would get a hotter kick signal level showing on the meter needle from the snare hits, than the input level of that kick mic inside the drum!
It made no sense to anyone I asked, but it was my reality.
A couple things changed that:
I was using a SM57 as a kick mic, and I changed to an AKG D112....and moving the kit out of that bedroom room into the "family room" made any bleed problem a non issue.
I agree about not gating the kick for reasons of bleed....I use a gate set very low to keep the silence when the drums are laying out, but not to elininate bleed....you will either get a funny click sound, or loose to much initial transient.
What kind of kick mic, placement, and room are you working with?

[True North]

I generally use a couple of mics on kik - one on the inside and one on the front head of the kick. I don't usually have too many problems with the internal mic bleed but usually have unwanted bleed on the external kick mic which is to be expected.

If you use a gate properly you really shouldn't have any issues with missed hits. I find the Plug-ins much easier to use (I use track plug 5 by Wave Arts) than the Hardware counterparts. There are generally more visual cues to work with.

Have you had bad experiences with gates before - if you find the right one and found the right settings I am sure you would be happy with the results.

Good Luck

[af_analog]

Thanks for replying here guys...ok you're right, I should have given you more info.

I think that putting a peice of wood between the snare and kick would not only impede the performance but may cause some weird comb filtering, no?

The snare definately isn't too low, changing the angle may help if I can convince my drummer to do so...you know drummers

I am using an APEX 210 ribbon mic laying down on the pillow in the kick, usually near the middle of the drum between the two heads. If you haven't tried a ribbon in the kick like this you should!!! I just LOVE the organicness (if thats even a word) of the low/low mid tones it gives me...especially for digital, it sounds like the kick was tracked to tape, I kid you not. I have tried using my SM91 in there to get the "click" but that mic picks up even more snare...trust me, this snare is a LOUD MOFO!!!

If the ribbon didn't require so much gain I think I'd be alright, but you know ribbons

P.S. The APEX 210 is going into an API 3124

Any other suggestions guys?

[af_analog]

True North...I have used gates with much success in the past, but as I stated before, the kick/snare hits are too close together, sometimes they are almost at the same time, so even if I gate the kick to perfection I am going to get snare hits while the kick gate is open, and I would rather have a constant bleed than a random, ass like snare hit now and then...

CHEERZ

[True North]

Would you be willing to post a sample of the Kick track on it's own?

[Jim Williams]

Leakage is your friend.

Change the snare drum to a smaller one. I find those Remo piccalo snares record beautifully. Dump the second kick mic. It just causes comb filtering with the 2 mixed.

Change the drummer. Great drummers don't have these problems. Calling in a session pro is not the end of the earth. Many famous acts have done this in the studio situation. It's not the same as live just like some kits are better for live, some better for recording.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[af_analog]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Leakage is your friend.

Change the snare drum to a smaller one. I find those Remo piccalo snares record beautifully. Dump the second kick mic. It just causes comb filtering with the 2 mixed.

Change the drummer. Great drummers don't have these problems. Calling in a session pro is not the end of the earth. Many famous acts have done this in the studio situation. It's not the same as live just like some kits are better for live, some better for recording.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Hi Jim, I appreciate your response...I have a lot of respect for your wisdom in this forum...

Don't take this the wrong way but the piccolo sound is far from what we are after, it is a rock project, and we are aiming for a lot of low body to the snare as well as attack...I have never been able to acheive this properly with a piccolo, but your suggestion would be valid in another situation for sure...

I have dumped the second mic, the SM91 is usually steller in the kick but it does pick up a lot of bleed, and in this case way too much fo sho...

The problem with changing drummers/kits is that this is definately the snare/snare sound we are after, but it is loud enough that the bleed is a problem in the kick mic...I think any drummer playing this kit would have the same problem, the drummer is not light on the kick either so thats not an issue.

I guess what this is boiling down to is that I will either have to change kick mics and or placements to find a middle ground, or try to isolate the kick drum in some more effective manner...

Thanks again to all the responses, I don't want you to think I am stubborn and am just shooting down your suggestions imediately, its just that we are at a point where we are happy with all of the sounds the way they are, but would LOVE to get this kick sound minus the snare bleed...

CHEERZ

[OVERNIGHT]

Placement, placement placement...... I'm assuming the Apex is Cardioid? With a short stand, get it near the top of the kick drum and point it down, at the bottom rim of kick drum itself, with the most rejection possible of the snare. The diaphram at 45 to 90 degree to angle (solo and season to taste) and 2" or 3" directly in front of the actual beater. Being off access you might get the brighter "taack" from the beater you're looking for while rejecting the snare more effectively. Coupled with a (tunneled and gated) mic in front of the kick (at least 3 feet in front of the other mic) you'd cover the all the freq's you need for the kick.

How about working with a darker mic, perhaps hypercardioid? Be carefull with a ribbon in the kick though, one errant wind blast and off to repairs it goes.

[af_analog]

Originally Posted by OVERNIGHT

Placement, placement placement...... I'm assuming the Apex is Cardioid? With a short stand, get it near the top of the kick drum and point it down, at the bottom rim of kick drum itself, with the most rejection possible of the snare. The diaphram at 45 to 90 degree to angle (solo and season to taste) and 2" or 3" directly in front of the actual beater. Being off access you might get the brighter "taack" from the beater you're looking for while rejecting the snare more effectively. Coupled with a (tunneled and gated) mic in front of the kick (at least 3 feet in front of the other mic) you'd cover the all the freq's you need for the kick.

How about working with a darker mic, perhaps hypercardioid? Be carefull with a ribbon in the kick though, one errant wind blast and off to repairs it goes.

The Apex is Figure 8 so I am not sure this will work but I will try...I have a feeling that the back side will end up getting the snare, but out of phase which may worsen my issues

I have the mic laying down on the pillow, blocking the backside as well as eliminating the possibilities for wind blasts...but I can try your suggested placement with one of my "double" pop filters...NO air gets through those at all. I am thinking of trying your placement suggestion with the side of the APEX facing directly at the snare while aiming the face of the mic in the direction you posted, the nulls on the mic are pretty good so it may work. I am off to the studio now so I'll post on Tuesday to let you guys know what I came up with and how it turned out...

Edit... You are right about changing mics for sure but this one just sounds soooo thick and creamy in the kick. I am so set on making this thing work.

Thanks again...CHEERZ

[OVERNIGHT]

What about making that mic the external mic? I'd think a figure 8 would not help matters frankly. Especially with how I described the solution.

[JYoder]

I've had this problem with Gretsch kits... the only real prevention is to get a head and beater that gives you the attack that you need. Gretsch is wonderfully warm, but if you're going for a modern rock sound you'll need to do something for the top end cut through the mix. Rather than eqing or changing the mic, get the attack at the source.

[godcity]

both that apex and the beta 91 are facing up. if you're insisting on using that mic, is there any way to reverse gravity and attach it to the top of the bass drum, so that it's pickup pattern is pointed down away from the snare? that way the null of the fig 8 pattern will be facing the snare.

also, if all else fails, you could put a compressor on the kick which is keyed off the snare. you might have to bypass it for hits where the kick and snare hit together.

[guid0]

I've had this problem before.

Since I only use 1 mic for the bass drum (an AKG D112 or MD421), I found that building a little "fort" around the bass drum helps isolate the mic from the rest of the kit.

Mic the kick as you usually do, get a chair, place it in front of the kick about 4 feet away and cover the whole thing with a sleeping bag or heavy blanket. Works like a charm.

[JonCraig]

while i know i'll be flamed for saying this, but... since you're trying to fix things after the fact, how about good 'ol soundreplacer? you could sample the kick without snare bleed, then replace.

now... flame on! i'm just being practical.

--jon

[OVERNIGHT]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

while i know i'll be flamed for saying this, but... since you're trying to fix things after the fact, how about good 'ol soundreplacer? you could sample the kick without snare bleed, then replace.

now... flame on! i'm just being practical.

--jon

No Flames here. It's a drag to resort to that but in a pinch this route can be used to good effect.

[Farview]

Every time I have this problem (usually caused by a light-footed, heavy-handed individual), I have always gotten good results from a Shure Beta 52 just inside the hole in the front head. That puts the mic far enough away from the snare to get rid of the worst of the bleed. Drumagog could be your friend also.

[mtstudi@pacbell]

Damage is done use sound replacer or manually replace every hit. If you have Bottom Snare gate that. Reverse phase on top snare mic (they are probably out with overhds), if btm snare should be opposite polarity (so if reversed while tracking reverse again).

Next time use a speaker w/ pad and transformer for outside Kik, gives you Sub with no audible snare bleed. Point inside kik off axis toward floor tom. Tell drummer to hit snare and kik with more intension and confidence. Don't let him pussy foot around. Keep on him.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[emeline-rec]

yeah if i couldn't sort out the bleed i would get a few samples of the kick and use drumagog. it's very seamless and produces transparent results once you learn how to set it up.

[big country]

I thought I felt a little ESTROGEN in this thread,
hey Fair View how are you?-http://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/winknudge.gif

[kellyd]

Do not under estimate the power of the blankie and mic placement. I use 2 kik (inside and outside (18-36") mics with minimal snare bleed. Never been an issue even with lesser drummers.

[Matthew Murray]

Originally Posted by af_analog

Don't take this the wrong way but the piccolo sound is far from what we are after, it is a rock project

Actually, don't discount the mighty piccolo so quickly. I know many of them are far too off the mark for rock stuff, but we just picked up a Pork Pie Piccolo, and my God, we're stunned by how well it fits into our sound (alt/rock, brit influenced) ... it's not drastically higher in pitch than the stock yamaha snare that came with our little stage custom, and it has some kind of beautiful character to it that just makes the damn thing sound stellar when recorded. Not all piccolo's are created equal, it would seem.

[KrisNY]

I was gonna suggest Drumagog. Is that a possibility?

[norman_nomad]

Err.. why has no one mentioned the elusive "Expander". I know they're not as cool as compressors, but this is the tool for the job.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

Err.. why has no one mentioned the elusive "Expander". I know they're not as cool as compressors, but this is the tool for the job.

For the same reason that gates won't work in his situation.

[Musiclab]

Tell your drummer to hit the kick harder. If there is that much snare in the kick his internal balance is way off.Also dont compress the kick on the way in. And try a different mic and move it back to near the hole

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Matthew Murray

Actually, don't discount the mighty piccolo so quickly. I know many of them are far too off the mark for rock stuff, but we just picked up a Pork Pie Piccolo, and my God, we're stunned by how well it fits into our sound (alt/rock, brit influenced) ... it's not drastically higher in pitch than the stock yamaha snare that came with our little stage custom, and it has some kind of beautiful character to it that just makes the damn thing sound stellar when recorded. Not all piccolo's are created equal, it would seem.

I agree. Sometimes the piccolo will suprise you. When tuned high, they kinda sound shallow and.. well... like a piccolo! But this one band came in to track with me... the drummer busts out a little piccolo and I was "oh great ". But he had tuned it way low and it actually sounded pretty good.

Clip attached.

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Farview

For the same reason that gates won't work in his situation.

I dunno, I use gates and expanders in different situations. I think an expander would work well. He could pull the kick forward and leave the snare tucked back without incurring any of the unnatural open/shut explosive qualities of a gate... assuming that the snare sound in the kick mic isn't actually louder than the kick sound in the kick mic.