4 mics on a 4x12, how?

[maskedman72]

i record mainly dist gtrs ala carcass, hatebreed, killswitch.

i always only use 2 mics on 4x12 cabs but i want to start using 3 or 4 mics on 4x12's to try and get a bigger better sound.

how do i go about checking the phase on a 4 mic set-up?

when i use only 2 mics it is simple, just flip one of them. but if there are 4 mics dont i have to flip and check the phase on each mic against the phase of the other 3?

so in a 4 mic set-up (this is all close mic'd btw, no room or distant mics) i would have to check phase in 12 spots?(each indivdual mic flipped against the other 3, one at a time)

[Lord Fear]

thats how you phase check them, however it seems like you might be in for an epic phase nightmare. have you looked into trippling or even more your guitar tracks, i know on some metalica and other heavy heavy records they have used up to 6 tracks of one part, you loose a lot of defination in the guitars however you get a very thick heavy wall of sound, just make sure your doubbles are tight.

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by Lord Fear

thats how you phase check them, however it seems like you might be in for an epic phase nightmare. have you looked into trippling or even more your guitar tracks, i know on some metalica and other heavy heavy records they have used up to 6 tracks of one part, you loose a lot of defination in the guitars however you get a very thick heavy wall of sound, just make sure your doubbles are tight.

i have not tried that method and i dont think i would want to. not many people are willing to shell out the $ to do all of that layering. my clients would just go to the "other guy" with a studio that will quad mic the cab before they would pay for the extra time it wouldk take to do the sneap layering method.


so how about the original question? how would a phase nightmare come about?
there must be people here that use 4 mics on a cab with good results.

ps- no ibp's will be used either.

[peeceebee]

I find which two mics are going to be my dominant sound, get them in good phase relationship, then fade in the next mic, get its best phase against the known main two, then the fourth.
That's only a few phase checks- BUT you've got to make the decision about the priority of which mics are going to be the body of the sound.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

i record mainly dist gtrs ala carcass, hatebreed, killswitch.

i always only use 2 mics on 4x12 cabs but i want to start using 3 or 4 mics on 4x12's to try and get a bigger better sound.

how do i go about checking the phase on a 4 mic set-up?

when i use only 2 mics it is simple, just flip one of them. but if there are 4 mics dont i have to flip and check the phase on each mic against the phase of the other 3?

so in a 4 mic set-up (this is all close mic'd btw, no room or distant mics) i would have to check phase in 12 spots?(each indivdual mic flipped against the other 3, one at a time)

In a word... don't.
If you want to work quickly.
IMHO it is easier and quicker to double/triple/quad track if you musicians are good.

More mics doesn't = a bigger sound, necessarily. It will just be louder, possibly with phase problems.
If you insist though, checking phase needs to be done sequentially.

1, 2
1, 3
1, 4
2, 3
2, 4
3, 4

It's still a shit fight though.
How are you placing them currently?

What mics are you using?
Simply using '4 mics' doesn't make sense at all.
You need to think about what mics, what flavour or colour (walters (c) ) they give.
I generally use a 57, 609 and then maybe a 147 for room.
Or a 57 and a 421
Or just a 57
Or just a C12.
Or a 57 and a PZM (If I am feeling like wasting time)
Or... etc

JR

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by richmondjames

In a word... don't.
If you want to work quickly.
IMHO it is easier and quicker to double/triple/quad track if you musicians are good.

More mics doesn't = a bigger sound, necessarily. It will just be louder, possibly with phase problems.

That's exactly my standpoint as well.

Doubletracking is almost a standard way of recording. I don't think you'd have to do this, you can choose not to because you want to have more of a live playing approach, but more mic's isn't the answer here IMHO.

And I don't think most bands would choose a studio over how much mic's there will be used on their guitartracks... but on the recordings they hear from the studio...

[Jason Poulin]

I would just use more amps, different combos... being fed from a splitter.


One clean, one is dirty, one is ballsy, one has midrange...



Add an IBP for each amp and you're laughing dude


Jason

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

i have not tried that method and i dont think i would want to. not many people are willing to shell out the $ to do all of that layering.

That's too bad, because that's FUNDAMENTAL to thick metal and punk guitar tones. It's all about the wall of sound. It's not going to happen with multiple mics, no matter where you place them, no matter how many you use, and no matter which mics you use. All you are going to get with 4 microphones are phase problems, and a lot of tonal choices, nothing else. I've been recording for 'pay' for about 13 years, I started out recording poor punk bands. I've never had the need to use more than two microphones on one cab (and honestly I don't know anybody who has used more than 3 on one cab, which I personally think is overkill), and for any kind of intense music, I use one mic, layered multiple times.

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

That's exactly my standpoint as well.


And I don't think most bands would choose a studio over how much mic's there will be used on their guitartracks... but on the recordings they hear from the studio...

now you and i both understand that but some people just dont get it. if they have been to the "other studio" and have seen 4 mics in person on a cab they think it must be 4x bigger and better sounding so that is where they will go.
i know it sounds assinine, but that has happened!

as far as what you are all saying, that is what my gut feeling was, it would just be phase problem city.
i guess ill have to force people to do multiplae layers.

so if i have a band with 2 gtr players and i have a cab with a 57 and a 421 on it how many times shoud each of the players layer their parts? i would guess each player should do 2 complete mirror image passes to total 4 tracks per side.

[everybody's x]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

for any kind of intense music, I use one mic, layered multiple times.

me too and every other studio I've recorded/worked in

If you really have a client hung up on not having enough mics on the cab, plug 4 in and run 3 cables to nowhere


or show them about 10,000 reference tracks that were tracked with one mic multiple times, andy sneap's entire catalog comes to mind

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by everybody's x

me too and every other studio I've recorded/worked in

If you really have a client hung up on not having enough mics on the cab, plug 4 in and run 3 cables to nowhere


or show them about 10,000 reference tracks that were tracked with one mic multiple times, andy sneap's entire catalog comes to mind

my thought exactly at this point.

from now on i will explain the layering importance to these metal guys who dont understand why they have to track the song again when they just did it.( i can see it now with my luck, they will tell others that i did it on purpose just to get more money from them.)

[No4PCs]

Hi friend, you can avoyd phase problems using only 3 mics !
You can try this method if you desire.
1 mic in front of the cabinet ( Closer as you can )
1 mic back the cabinet ( A little bit distant )To get the bass sounds !
And 1 large condenser far away of the cabinet . That " ambient sound ". Then mix at flavour.
I think enough for "the wall" track !

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

my thought exactly at this point.

from now on i will explain the layering importance to these metal guys who dont understand why they have to track the song again when they just did it.( i can see it now with my luck, they will tell others that i did it on purpose just to get more money from them.)

It takes about 5 minutes to show them a real life example....I know everyone is on a tight schedule and budget these days but sheesh....

Just have them do one main track, then go back to the beginning of the song and have them do it three more times. Only play back the track they are currently recording (they have to be good players who know their parts for this to work regardless so they shouldn't really have to hear the other rhythm part to match it). Once they are done with all 4 parts (just use one mic, this isn't blues or pop right?), play them all back at the same volume, hard left and hard right for obvious effect. They'll shit themselves from it sounding so thick, and they'll agree to it right away. Everybody in the room will be like "yeah mannnn, that's ****ing cool dude", and you look like a genius.

[whosyourdaddy00]

1 mic in front of the cabinet ( Closer as you can )
1 mic back the cabinet ( A little bit distant )To get the bass sounds !
And 1 large condenser far away of the cabinet . That " ambient sound ". Then mix at flavour

add a direct signal for some digital fx and you'll have about all the fun you can with one pass on a distorted guitar.

Just have them do one main track, then go back to the beginning of the song and have them do it three more times. Only play back the track they are currently recording (they have to be good players who know their parts for this to work regardless so they shouldn't really have to hear the other rhythm part to match it). Once they are done with all 4 parts (just use one mic, this isn't blues or pop right?), play them all back at the same volume, hard left and hard right for obvious effect. They'll shit themselves from it sounding so thick, and they'll agree to it right away. Everybody in the room will be like "yeah mannnn, that's ****ing cool dude", and you look like a genius.

so true!

[No4PCs]

"add a direct signal for some digital fx and you'll have about all the fun you can with one pass on a distorted guitar."


" Everybody in the room will be like "yeah mannnn, that's ****ing cool dude", and you look like a genius. "
Hey man you f*** funny, hahahahahahaha, true !

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

It takes about 5 minutes to show them a real life example....I know everyone is on a tight schedule and budget these days but sheesh....

Just have them do one main track, then go back to the beginning of the song and have them do it three more times. Only play back the track they are currently recording (they have to be good players who know their parts for this to work regardless so they shouldn't really have to hear the other rhythm part to match it). Once they are done with all 4 parts (just use one mic, this isn't blues or pop right?), play them all back at the same volume, hard left and hard right for obvious effect. They'll shit themselves from it sounding so thick, and they'll agree to it right away. Everybody in the room will be like "yeah mannnn, that's ****ing cool dude", and you look like a genius.

so that is a total of 4 single mic'd tracks per side, per player for a total of 8 gtr tracks right?
or are you saying record 1 main track and have them do it 3 more times for a total of 4 tracks?
now i am eager to try this.

[whosyourdaddy00]

oh yeah, i've had 12 dist' tracks gooin' at once...

close mic, distant mic, and DI times two guitar players times two passes

'twas thick, but had i been smarter i coulda had the same result with a far simpler setup. and phase can be a bitch...you're gonna hafta do some nudging (by ear) to get 'em to play nice with eachother.

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

so that is a total of 4 single mic'd tracks per side, per player for a total of 8 gtr tracks right?
or are you saying record 1 main track and have them do it 3 more times for a total of 4 tracks?
now i am eager to try this.

If it's one player, 4 times total (4 tracks with one mic). If it's two players, then two times each (4 tracks with one mic). More than that is overkill IMO. If you want to great crazy about it, mic one of those times with two mics so you have one close and one room mic a few feet away (6 tracks total either way).

On the single player version, I'd switch amp heads and or mics at least half of the four times just for some differentiation. Hopefully on the two player version they are using different amps, or at least different guitars.

There are all sorts of things to try, let your imagination and ears dictate what's best. And FWIW, this isn't really a metal only technique, Jimmy Page was doing this kind of thing 35 years ago.

PSS If they are using shit amps or shit guitars, or don't know their parts then

[stevep]

1 57 On each cabinet

2 Guitar tracks, one paned left one paned right

2 Different sounding cabs


= A fat sound


Keep it simple .

And if you are working with a band with two guitar players ...... easy !






steve

[stevep]

everybody's x .If you really have a client hung up on not having enough mics on the cab, plug 4 in and run 3 cables to nowhere

Better,......

to convince them to record your way, you can just play them a CD with the sound you can get, and the sound will sell it self !

Lord Fear ......you loose a lot of defination in the guitars however you get a very thick heavy wall of sound, just make sure your doubbles are tight.

This is true ,



steve

[seaneldon]

the best advice i can give:

if you can't get the sound you want with two different microphones on a big friggen cabinet, you're doing something wrong. start over. could be the wrong guitar, could be the wrong amp, could be the wrong two mics, could be the wrong player, could be the wrong room. start over. figure out what you don't like. in this case, you want it bigger. try swapping out everything else before you start hanging up more mics that won't ever get used in the song.

[lofi]

i thought ya were joking man.....

doubling is essential for metal... not 100 mics on one cab....

even with plugs and simulators ya can have usable tracks but only if you double/triple/quad...

cos thicknes is where is at...turn the gain down and retrack (and again and again)

until theres no more "thicknes" improvement then back up one track...thats it..

anthrax once did 7 odbs with different guitars setups (sound of white noise i think) so if you want THAT sound no way around it...

but ya could use lots of mics but on different guitar setups at the same time... (diff speakers diff cabs diff amps - i once did wire dif pups form the same guitar !!) then you use ibps and mic positioning and flitering,equing to get all those sources work together...that is aproach when ya need lots of playing detailes + improvisation but ya dont want to sacriface thicknes - but its not the same as first method ! different ! (alice in chains comes to mind)

ya can also record one main guitar setup and clean pup output at the same time then reamp later... (radial x-amp recommended)..but thats LOTS of work belive me...


anyway good luck...

[maskedman72]

thanks fellas!

[George Necola]

try the delay trick and work with your busses (board or ITB), reamp signals internally, add FX, add rumble, add noise.. whatever works.

[the-oger]

I’ve only ever gotten fat / thick guitar tracks by doubling the parts. If a good player, doubling is no problem and you can layer more takes. If a crappy player and can’t double worth sh!t, only get 2 takes, pan them hard, and maybe a 3rd take up the center(ish) for beefing up certain parts of the song. I don’t think multi-mic’ing “adds” content, it only changes the tone. Two guitars with gain turned down (for clarity) & panned will sound way fatter/heavier than one guitar with gain cranked. Sometimes it’s very difficult to convince a guitar player to turn down the gain because he can’t visualize the final sounds in context… he only hears the amp solo in the room (…“awww MAN I can’t get any pick-squeals this way!”).

And for thick rhythm tracks, tube amp distortion with carefully controlled gain always give me better results… i’ve never really achieved good results using distortion pedals. That’s another thing that young players freak out about – ...him: “but that pedal IS my sound, man!” – me: “what… you WANNA sound like a broken radio stuck on FM static?!?!”

Oger