Recording Schools: CRAS vs. Full Sail

[jdjustice]

I have been thinking about taking a year off and attending either the Conservatory of Recording Arts & Sciences in Tempe, AZ, or going to Full Sail in Orlando, FL.

Anyone here graduate from one of these programs?? Were they worth it or IYO a waste of time?? I am in the middle of getting my degree in computer programmming and electrical engineering (my goal is to develop software plugins for pro audio DAWs professionally); I want to take a year off and learn to run a proper console. The internship that CRAS offers looks promising, too..

Any opinions or other school recommendations greatly appreciated!

J.D.

[Oroz]

I attended to "Recording Workshop" in Chillicothe, Ohio. It was a great experience but their programs last about 2 months and I don't know if that is what you're looking for. Very informative and a lot of hand on practices as well, the whole package in my opinion.

www.recw.com

[TheSoundFella]

If I can offer some advice....

I attended CRAS back in 2002 & loved every bit of it. Classes are very small, very hard-core, & the teachers play "roles" very well. One instructor played the hard-ass engineer that was VERY STRICT to give you an idea the type of guy you might become an assitant under in the real world.

I landed a sweet internship @ Electric Lady in NYC & impressed the manager enough to land me a weekly paycheck 3 weeks into my internship. I was 22 @ the time so most of my credentials came from my "teaching myself" since I was 9 coupled w/ the knowledge CRAS gave me. I could record & make good tracks before CRAS, but they taught me how/why the gear worked how it did & made things make more sense.

A fellow student in a different class just above me graduated from Full Sail first, hit the real world, got kicked in the ass by reality....Instead of throwing in the towel entirely - he went to CRAS next & said the differences were night & day. CRAS prepares you to realize its a long tough battle. Full Sail gives you the impression that with your knowledge of ProTools, you will run circles around guys who've been doing it for 30 years.

CRAS will teach you how audio & the gear work first, then give you hands on in every aspect of audio. Live sound, Commercial work, radio broadcasting, management, business, 2" analog as well as ProTools. All around knowledge makes you a Swiss-army engineer & help ensure you can always handle a gig in any line of audio.

If you're wanting to land an internship/job after school - i can tell ya that more people respect CRAS grads than Full Sail. If you're going to just learn, both will probably teach ya something.

If I had to do it all over again - I wouldn't have changed a thing....CRAS is very thorough - & about 1/3 the cost of Full Sail also.

It has given me the tools to manage & be the chief engineer @ a very fine studio & I'm glad I didn't just cash in my 4-yr degree in Business Finance to become an accountant instead....although the pay may have been better, I can sleep @ night to the very tunes I cut that day/week/month/year.....

[Jose Mrochek]

Only accept opinions about Fullsail, from people who actually attended it. That´s the best advice I can give you.

I give it 2 thumbs way up.

[Toxic1]

Originally Posted by TheSoundFella

If I can offer some advice....

I attended CRAS back in 2002 & loved every bit of it. Classes are very small, very hard-core, & the teachers play "roles" very well. One instructor played the hard-ass engineer that was VERY STRICT to give you an idea the type of guy you might become an assitant under in the real world.

I landed a sweet internship @ Electric Lady in NYC & impressed the manager enough to land me a weekly paycheck 3 weeks into my internship. I was 22 @ the time so most of my credentials came from my "teaching myself" since I was 9 coupled w/ the knowledge CRAS gave me. I could record & make good tracks before CRAS, but they taught me how/why the gear worked how it did & made things make more sense.

A fellow student in a different class just above me graduated from Full Sail first, hit the real world, got kicked in the ass by reality....Instead of throwing in the towel entirely - he went to CRAS next & said the differences were night & day. CRAS prepares you to realize its a long tough battle. Full Sail gives you the impression that with your knowledge of ProTools, you will run circles around guys who've been doing it for 30 years.

CRAS will teach you how audio & the gear work first, then give you hands on in every aspect of audio. Live sound, Commercial work, radio broadcasting, management, business, 2" analog as well as ProTools. All around knowledge makes you a Swiss-army engineer & help ensure you can always handle a gig in any line of audio.

If you're wanting to land an internship/job after school - i can tell ya that more people respect CRAS grads than Full Sail. If you're going to just learn, both will probably teach ya something.

If I had to do it all over again - I wouldn't have changed a thing....CRAS is very thorough - & about 1/3 the cost of Full Sail also.

It has given me the tools to manage & be the chief engineer @ a very fine studio & I'm glad I didn't just cash in my 4-yr degree in Business Finance to become an accountant instead....although the pay may have been better, I can sleep @ night to the very tunes I cut that day/week/month/year.....

I'm a CRAS grad as well and concur with the above. Save a crap load of money and go to a more realistic down to earth audio school with small class sizes and more hands on time.

One thing you can do if you're still unsure at this point is to actually call both schools. Call CRAS and have a nice conversation and get the information you need. Call Full Sail and feel like you're being talked to by a pushy computer screen. And they'll push hard for you because they care about numbers and $$$$$.

[jdjustice]

Originally Posted by Toxic1

One thing you can do if you're still unsure at this point is to actually call both schools. Call CRAS and have a nice conversation and get the information you need. Call Full Sail and feel like you're being talked to by a pushy computer screen. And they'll push hard for you because they care about numbers and $$$$$.

Thanks guys a lot for the personal experiences and opinions. I have called both FullSail and CRAS, and submitted applications. I will have a phone interview with CRAS tomorrow. CRAS gave me the impression that they are a bit more selective than FullSail about whether you will be a good match for their school. Matt, the person I talked with, was friendly and informative.

Oh yeah, CRAS is asking for $14,000 USD for 10-months plus a 2-month internship/placement. FullSail wants $43,000 USD for their 12 months.

But please everyone keep the opinions coming. I still have an open mind as to where to go. Leaning towards CRAS because they JUST do Audio Engineering and seem to just focus on that where FullSail has several schools of study and seems more spread out. But I would love to hear from more FullSail grads as to their experiences.

Much appreciated input, guys... Thanks a lot!!!


J.D.

[Sara_tonin]

Go to a state school and save a shitload of money and learn how to make great sounds out of shitty equipment.

SUNY Purchase Represent.

[audioalchemy]

I attended SAE Nashville, and while I've never been to CRAS or Full Sail all I can say is you get out of it what you put into it. At least in my expirience, the teachers teach to the lowest common denominator. Their purpose is to teach somebody with NO expirience. In the case of SAE they just wanted to graduate people and I don't feel I was really challenged. However I was in the studio every waking moment running signal, mixing, etc. I got alot out of the school becuase I exploited every oppertunity it gave me. I think that is the basic rule to follow no matter where you go.

just my 2 cents
AudioAlchemy

[Toxic1]

Originally Posted by audioalchemy

However I was in the studio every waking moment running signal, mixing, etc. I got alot out of the school becuase I exploited every oppertunity it gave me. I think that is the basic rule to follow no matter where you go.

just my 2 cents
AudioAlchemy

This advice will never get old........

[robmix]

You can find idiots and disgruntled alumni from every school. I've met plenty of people from top music schools who I wouldn't hire and even corporate types from Ivy League schools I wouldn't do business with. With any school, you can coast through and just get by or you can apply yourself and get an education. Every one of the people in my graduating class who applied themselves in school has a great career in the music industry. Those who didn't are floundering . . . . . if you can't learn the what it takes to make it in the music industry from Full Sail you won't be able to do it anywhere else.

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

I´m interested in this too. I´m thinking about taking one year off and spend it in a recording school.

The thing is I already work in a studio for a couple of years and I have my own studio for one year now, so I have some experience. I know that i could learn more but I don´t want to end up spending a bunch of money to hear 90% of what i know already. I am looking for a more pratice-oriented school. One where I could indeed upgrade my skills.
I already talked with both schools ( SAE and Full Sail) but still can´t realise wich could give me more. I also thought about the possibility to spend only 2 or 3 months and choose the areas wich interest me the most ( you can do this with Full Sail)

I also talked with a couple of friends that attended SAE in London and the other in Spain. They both told me that is a great school but maybe better for begginers,not so great for advanced learning.

[AmekGuy]

Originally Posted by jdjustice

I am in the middle of getting my degree in computer programmming and electrical engineering (my goal is to develop software plugins for pro audio DAWs professionally); I want to take a year off and learn to run a proper console.

If it were me, my focus would be on the computer programming and electrical engineering. With the advances in home recording and scores of recording graduates, it may end up being more of a sideline. Best of luck.

[Zwinter]

The success after you leave any school, audio related or not, is largely based upon yourself. Sure attending Harvard is a great way to get your foot in the door. But if you show up to your interview and act like a total idiot no piece of paper saying you graduated from Harvard is going to save you. The most a school can do is make available the tools necessary to succeed. In fact, schools don't even make you use these tools; they are simply available and you have to decide what to do with them. Nobody can make you study, nobody can make you spend extra hours in the labs, and nobody can go to your interviews and make you sound like a genius. Personally, I went to CRAS and felt that it was valuable, but only because I made the most out of it. I was the student that read the console manuals two or three times cover to cover. No teacher or school made me to it, but I knew that if I wanted a job in LA I had better get reading.

In the end, it's not about the school, it's about the person. Although, that being said, there are some major chop shops out there. I would stick with one of the more well known programs. Other than that I hope you enjoy studying.

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

Originally Posted by Zwinter

The success after you leave any school, audio related or not, is largely based upon yourself. Sure attending Harvard is a great way to get your foot in the door. But if you show up to your interview and act like a total idiot no piece of paper saying you graduated from Harvard is going to save you. The most a school can do is make available the tools necessary to succeed. In fact, schools don't even make you use these tools; they are simply available and you have to decide what to do with them. Nobody can make you study, nobody can make you spend extra hours in the labs, and nobody can go to your interviews and make you sound like a genius. Personally, I went to CRAS and felt that it was valuable, but only because I made the most out of it. I was the student that read the console manuals two or three times cover to cover. No teacher or school made me to it, but I knew that if I wanted a job in LA I had better get reading.

In the end, it's not about the school, it's about the person. Although, that being said, there are some major chop shops out there. I would stick with one of the more well known programs. Other than that I hope you enjoy studying.

This i know already. I studied ( alone) every book that i found important, every manual and practice every day, whenever i can. I didn´t attend any recording school though.
What i do not know is the different aproach each school has. And beacause I already spent some year reading like hell ( i guess that going through it again is not that bad, but..) i would like something more, and the most hands-on possible.
Also, wich good alternatives are there in Europe?

[Toxic1]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

This i know already. I studied ( alone) every book that i found important, every manual and practice every day, whenever i can. I didn´t attend any recording school though.
What i do not know is the different aproach each school has. And beacause I already spent some year reading like hell ( i guess that going through it again is not that bad, but..) i would like something more, and the most hands-on possible.
Also, wich good alternatives are there in Europe?

If you want more hands on, the last school you'll want to go to is Full Sail. I'm sorry, but 40 people in a class is just way too much. I've talked to a couple of FS grads that said hands on time was severely lacking at the school.

And they paid $40k+

At CRAS, our class started with 12 and I believe ended with 9. The school is pretty selective and I've heard they turn away a good 1/3 of the applicants for various reasons. OK.....so there was plenty of hands on for us. And the two campuses were open 24 hours a day so one could actually spend as much of their life in there getting to route audio. I paid $12.5k.

Don't know about the European schools........sorry.

[Plush]

I highly recommend going to a good liberal arts college and getting a real education.
YOu can always work part time at a studio while attending a real school.

Otherwise think of McGill University in Montreal--excellent recording school.

YOu could attend Stanford for the $43,000 Full Sail wants.

I think Full Sail is a joke with a revolving door of "teachers" and they produce arrogant engineers who are "already" "producers."

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

Ok. Thanks for the reply. This is what i wanted to know. Although when i talked with a full sail assistante I was informed that each class has 12 people max. ( if I remember right). I have to check again.
The price differences are huge. How about the possibility to make separated modules ( 1 month each). That´s nice no? One could choose what´s best and spend only 3, 4, months. It would be cheaper too...

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Oroz

I attended to "Recording Workshop" in Chillicothe, Ohio. It was a great experience but their programs last about 2 months and I don't know if that is what you're looking for. Very informative and a lot of hand on practices as well, the whole package in my opinion.

www.recw.com

I don't pass along second hand info much, but my very good friend / local engineer whom I interned with in the early 90's went to this school around 1990 I think and has nothing but good things to say about it. It's intensive, they cover tons of ground, have cool little cabins you can stay in etc, had you doing everything from engineering to repairs / maintenance etc.

I can however testify to the fact that he is a very well rounded engineer.

In many ways I wish I had attended that school after talking with him, my internship was somewhat cut short due to getting married and having a family and sinking work into my "day job" back then so...a lot of what I know is just self taught over the years of having my own home based studios. I missed out on some technical aspects of things anyhow and I think those schools can be great for giving you that info to of course, put to good use! Without putting it to use it's a waste of $$$ and time of course, that goes without saying.

Best of luck, there are a lot of choices out there.

War

[robmix]

Originally Posted by Toxic1

If you want more hands on, the last school you'll want to go to is Full Sail. I'm sorry, but 40 people in a class is just way too much. I've talked to a couple of FS grads that said hands on time was severely lacking at the school.

And they paid $40k+

At CRAS, our class started with 12 and I believe ended with 9. The school is pretty selective and I've heard they turn away a good 1/3 of the applicants for various reasons. OK.....so there was plenty of hands on for us. And the two campuses were open 24 hours a day so one could actually spend as much of their life in there getting to route audio. I paid $12.5k.

Don't know about the European schools........sorry.

That's completely inaccurate. There are no more than 4-8 people in labs, actual studio time. Plus you get individual studio time in the workstation and mixing labs. There may be as many as 40-60 people in lectures - but there's no "hands on" anyway in a lecture. I went to Full Sail and never felt short changed about hands on time.

Look I understand you're happy with CRAS, that's great. And I'm sure I'm more than defensive about FS. But you should be more cautious about posting erroneous statements about a school that you've never attended. You're starting to look like a shill for CRAS. I certainly wouldn't post on an internationally public website about things I didn't have personal experience with.



.

[djui5]

Fullsail bashing ranks right up there with beating up bums on street corners.

Give it up fellas. We all know there have been some bad seeds come out of there, but there are plenty of people doing great things in the industry that have attended the school to discount it entirely.

They have a lot of gear, and if you want to learn how to use a large console, that's the place to do it.

They won't teach you how to be a great mixer, or how to get great tones, or how to build the worlds greatest pre-amp, but not a single school out there will.

I can't speak for CRAS (it's really close to me though and I've worked with more than a few people from there). It's my understanding that for the $$ it's a great school.

I chose Full Sail, and would do it again if I had the choice.

Wherever you go, apply yourself with no remorse.

[jdjustice]

Thanks again guys for all the valuable input. I have my telephone interview with CRAS at 3:00pm EST today; hope they accept me!!

I am always 110% dedicated to any endeavours I take on, especially ones that cost me thousands of dollars. Studying is not a problem; I enjoy learning.

At this point I will probably attend CRAS because I don't really have the $43K for FullSail. I recognize that you get what you put into it and that both schools probably have their pluses and minuses.

I am glad to hear that there are satisfied grads from both of these schools on the forums. That speaks well for whichever one I ultimately choose.

Thanks,

J.D.

[Bob Olhsson]

I'd choose a school based mostly on what artists it has produced recently. In many cases this will be 4 year college music departments.

Being friends with somebody from school who became a second engineer is great but a friend who just got signed to a major label is probably going to do lots more for your career in the long run!

It's really all about who knows how much you know and how far you can be trusted.

[wilkinswp]

[QUOTE=Plush]I highly recommend going to a good liberal arts college and getting a real education.
YOu can always work part time at a studio while attending a real school.

Otherwise think of McGill University in Montreal--excellent recording school.

YOu could attend Stanford for the $43,000 Full Sail wants.

QUOTE]

I agree with this and feel strongly that a $40K+ price tag for 12 months in a recording school is over the top.

[MIKEHARRIS]

Check out MTSU

http://www.mtsu.edu/

[KrisNY]

Originally Posted by Sara_tonin

Go to a state school and save a shitload of money and learn how to make great sounds out of shitty equipment.

SUNY Purchase Represent.

Agreed. I'm in SUNY Purchase's production program with Christina, and it's way cheap and way awesome.

You'll never see a U67 or a C300 for the entire four years, but the education is invaluable.

And listen to the guy who said "apply yourself with no remorse." You get out what you put in. No question.

Good luck,
Kris

[Toxic1]

Originally Posted by robmix

That's completely inaccurate. There are no more than 4-8 people in labs, actual studio time. Plus you get individual studio time in the workstation and mixing labs. There may be as many as 40-60 people in lectures - but there's no "hands on" anyway in a lecture. I went to Full Sail and never felt short changed about hands on time.

Look I understand you're happy with CRAS, that's great. And I'm sure I'm more than defensive about FS. But you should be more cautious about posting erroneous statements about a school that you've never attended. You're starting to look like a shill for CRAS. I certainly wouldn't post on an internationally public website about things I didn't have personal experience with.

.

Your comments are definitely valuable and needed. Look, I went off of my gut. And I'm glad I did. When I called FS, one of my questions was about class sizes. And they mentioned classes of around 40 or so. Lab situations weren't clarified for me because at that point I knew I didn't want to go there. My parents aren't rich and I sure didn't want to pay tuition and interest the rest of my life. The experiences of a couple of FS grads I know were mostly negative. And one of the negatives was hands on time. I know people aren't going to have the same view and opinion about a lot of things. That's life.

By the way, shill is a perfect word I would use to describe FS Admission Dept. No attack against you or other FS grads on here.

Shill:

1. To act as a shill for (a deceitful enterprise).
2. To lure (a person) into a swindle.

[zenkonami]

My two pennies...

I finished up CRAS last year and it was fantastic. Naturally while in school we did a lot of Full Sail bashing, and I've met a couple FS grads who said they did the same about our grads. All in the spirit of good competition. In fairness to both schools, and many others out there, we had our fair share of losers, drop-outs and wannabes that just didn't want to do the work. Frankly, I don't know what most of them are doing now, but I don't think they're working in audio. That said, I'm in constant contact here in L.A. with five of the guys from my class, plus still in contact with a couple buddies from other classes that wound up in Chicago...all of us in the biz. Granted, we're not running studios, but we're only a year out

I've spoken to a few FS grads, and people that have known FS grads, and I have to agree with what often gets said...it's the person, not the school. They seem to be as talented, motivated and successful as they choose to become, and more power to them. You've got slackers in any school.

All of that said, and I wouldn't trade my CRAS experience for the world, you might consider saving the $$$ and politely harassing a local studio until they let you hang out. That or taking that hard earned credit (or savings if you've got it) and purchasing your own gear, books, etc... might be worth your while. You are probably already well into the academic mindset, and nothing beats raw experience. Plus, there's always gearslutz you can bother

Personally, I like your idea on the CS side of thing, creating plug-ins, etc... If I can fish my way out of some debt, I hope to head back to school for that myself.

So go on. Pick CRAS. You know you want to.

(more smileys than a slut should be allowed...)

-Zen

[txgator]

The truth is that in the end it is all about the person BUT...

I used to live in Winter Park (where FS is) for almost 4 years. I knew a ton of full sail grads. Many of them worked at Guitar Center. Most of them also did some recording on the side. A couple of them did ok at the recording stuff.

I know one graduate from CRAS. Granted he's one of my best friends on the planet. 4 years removed from school he is the chief knob turner here: http://www.theblueroom.org/

He works for these people: http://www.morainemusic.com/ His boss is this guy:
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_brent_maher/index.html

OT: The Blue Room is very cool. Trident TSM. I had the pleasure of tracking 4 tunes a month ago there.

[RobR]

I suggest you visit both schools, in person. Take a personal tour.
Meet the students, meet the staff.

The experience is going to be different for everybody. The bottom-line is different
for everybody. Etc., etc.

I wouldn't gauge anything on the success of it's students. That's flat out ridiculous.
I'm an ass (and quite insane), I'm certain most people wouldn't want to hang out with
me, yet alone have me as an employee. Would someone possibly think I wasn't
that way before I walked into a recording school?

[djui5]

Originally Posted by txgator

I know one graduate from CRAS. Granted he's one of my best friends on the planet. 4 years removed from school he is the chief knob turner here: http://www.theblueroom.org/

That's neato but how many CRAS grads made the Grammys last year, or even the Billboard top 50 for that matter?

Just something to chew on. I do agree with Rob, don't judge a school by it's graduates.