Avalon M5 vs. Avalon 737

[silenthwk]

Hey,

Are there any experts out there who have used the AVALON M5 as well as the 737 who could give me some heads up on which MIC PREAMP is better or which is a better box for mainly male vox & acoustic guitar?

Obviously, 737 does more. But if I'm going into a Digi 002, using a NEUMANN TLM 49 and TLM 103...I also have a Universal Audio LA-610. I also have the WAVES VOCAL BUNDLE to tweak things on the back end for M5 use if needed.

And could if I got the M5, could I run it thru the LA-610 T4 compressor while using the
610 preamp on acoustic at the same time?

Okay, don't want to get greedy for everyone's knowledge on the last question, but any help you can give this new gearslut from cheesehead from Wisconsin will be tremendously appreciated!

Thanks! Michael of Cheese

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by silenthawk

Okay, don't want to get greedy for everyone's knowledge on the last question, but any help you can give this new gearslut from cheesehead from Wisconsin will be tremendously appreciated!

Thanks! Michael of Cheese

They're both the same apples, just different sizes. Get bigger.

However...

IMHO both lack personality, just look nice and sound transparent. For me "good" is not good enough and "transparent" is not interesting. I'd go for Manley VoxBox (ultrawarm), Groove Tubes ViPRE (warm, punchy) or SPL (clean but convertible to warm and the best bang for a buck on the market). Sure, you can always get a Drawmer 1969, GML or Neve, or THE cleanest and THE most transparent channel strip around - Millena Media STT-1, but I'd rather... aaaaa!!!(16tons).stike

Howgh!

Bob Amirian

[silenthwk]

Bob,

Thanks for your reply. I am seriously a young guppy in a big ocean full of gear and that is definitely not the first time I heard that about AVALON. I heard great things, then I hear that if you want personality go with the Manley as you stated as well as UNIVERSAL AUDIO stuff...(I have the LA-610, which isn't a bad box for price)...

So, with your comments, I am in limbo...The MANLEY MICPREAMPS/COMP are expensive eeh??

Just a thought in case I hopefully get your pro-attention again, using the DIGI 002, G5 MAC...do I need a AD-CONVERTER (Analog-Digital) or vice versa to go along with my MIC PREAMPS...?Not need but do you think there'd be a huge difference adding a LAVRY or somekind of AD converter to mix??

Alright, wish I could buy you a beer/coke, bottled water for your good advice, but alas, please just take my dry humble thanks!!

Michael Of Cheeseland...

[gabler]

Originally Posted by silenthawk

Hey,

Are there any experts out there who have used the AVALON M5 as well as the 737 who could give me some heads up on which MIC PREAMP is better or which is a better box for mainly male vox & acoustic guitar?

Obviously, 737 does more. But if I'm going into a Digi 002, using a NEUMANN TLM 49 and TLM 103...I also have a Universal Audio LA-610. I also have the WAVES VOCAL BUNDLE to tweak things on the back end for M5 use if needed.

And could if I got the M5, could I run it thru the LA-610 T4 compressor while using the
610 preamp on acoustic at the same time?

Okay, don't want to get greedy for everyone's knowledge on the last question, but any help you can give this new gearslut from cheesehead from Wisconsin will be tremendously appreciated!

Thanks! Michael of Cheese

I had a M5. I wouldnt recommend as a main vocal preamp. Very clean sounding.
I liked it on bass or kick drum. Ive been using a Great River as a vocal pre or
a neve type works well of course. Chandler LTD-1...

[Jay Lee]

The first thing that comes to my mind when talking about the Avalon 737 is that it's the Neptunes' preamp of choise. It was just for an example in Justin Timberlakes Justified album. I like the sound.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Jay Lee

The first thing that comes to my mind when talking about the Avalon 737 is that it's the Neptunes' preamp of choise. It was just for an example in Justin Timberlakes Justified album. I like the sound.

Wrong!

Also, most of the stuff on JT's Justified album was tracked with a U87 through a 1073, or ISA110 into an 1176.

[Jay Lee]

Oh, my bad. I remembered the article in SOS 07/05 wrong. What it did say, was that Avalon 737 is a part of Neptunes sound. My bad. Oh and wrong to you to!!! "On Justin Timberlake's 2004 Grammy-winning album that spawned "Like I Love You" and "Rock Your Body", Coleman used a modified C12 owned by producer Brian McKnight, which Timberlake brought to the session."
Coleman is the primary engineer of Neptunes'.

[silenthwk]

Hey thanks Gabler!

Good to hear someone who has had direct experience with the M5 box...I will check out your other thoughts...

Michael of Cheeseland

[silenthwk]

Jay Lee, thanks for your 737 input...Does look like a nice box. And it's always good to know it's used on big records...Any other thoughts on mic preamps are always welcome..

Thanks again, Michael of cheeseland..

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Jay Lee

Oh, my bad. I remembered the article in SOS 07/05 wrong. What it did say, was that Avalon 737 is a part of Neptunes sound. My bad. Oh and wrong to you to!!! "On Justin Timberlake's 2004 Grammy-winning album that spawned "Like I Love You" and "Rock Your Body", Coleman used a modified C12 owned by producer Brian McKnight, which Timberlake brought to the session."
Coleman is the primary engineer of Neptunes'.

Drew (his name is Drew Coleman, a friend of mine) might have used Justin's mic on those two songs, but all of the Timbo stuff was U87. The point is the 737 isn't a big part of the Neptunes sound.... I think they did have the 737 in the bus, though. But, all of the keyboards are tracked through the custom 24 channel summing DI/preamp setup I had fabricated for them.

And to silenthawk... the M5 is a superior preamp to the 737.

[Rob King]

I absolutely love my 737's! I have no idea why there are so many bashers on the message boards on these units. I use them 90% on vocals and acoustiic guitar with excellent results and I have a ton of other preamps to choose from...Just buy one and test it out, don't like it you have like 30 days at most retail chains..

Rob

[Jay Lee]

LOL Tony, name dropping starts... No, just kidding...I believe Timbo used the U87...I think I saw the mic in some document where Justin was in his studio. And yes, at least in the Neptunes bus there is 737...I think Coleman said something about them liking it for it's clean sound or something. The point was, he mentioned it many times in that article...
You can read the damn thing yourself...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul0...rewcoleman.htm

I've just noticed that 737 often come up when people talk about recording big name artists.

Oh and maybe I should have been more clear in what I say... I was talking about vocal sound. I wasn't talking about the channels they use when they track instruments. SORRY!
And obviously vocals aren't what make that Neptunes sound...I don't think they are as vocal oriented as Timbaland is.

[ejsongs]

i've used both a lot and have the 737. i do a lot of recording with underdogs and babyface...get the M5. I do like the 737 but it is not the m5. I also have the ltd 1 and the tg channel mk 2...both are better that tha 737 but very different. I'm going to get an M5 or 2022 but will always keep my 737 cause it is great for certain things...bass...di guitar...nylon gtr etc.

ej

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Jay Lee

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul0...rewcoleman.htm

I've just noticed that 737 often come up when people talk about recording big name artists.

They didn't mention me in the article... but they mentioned the bus company...

The 737 is a popular piece, but the M5 is superior to it. Although, after owning one for several years, I got bored with it and got rid of it. A rack with a combo of Neve and API pre's is more my style.

Also, the studio that they mention in the article no longer exists... They have a new place with an SSL and ICON.

[Jay Lee]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

They didn't mention me in the article... but they mentioned the bus company...

LOL Maybe they got the bus for free...

Ok Tony...I have to admit it's hard to keep up with these people...always moving and getting new gear.

[DeepSpace]

Michael,
We have both a 737sp and an AD2022 among the pres here. The AD2022 is, of course, comparable to the M5 (but in a dual-channel format).

It's true that they're both very clean, but you know that already. However the way I see it, clean has its virtues and one of them is versatility. Color does not suit everything. Both these pres can work very well on some vocals and with some mics, but they are rather different in character.

To my ears, the sonic imprint of the 737 could be described as creamy and at times velvety, with a lot of focus (good tight and present sound) - whereas by comparison, I find the AD2022 has a silky and at times sparkling quality with a load of spaciousness.

In general I lean towards the AD2022 for acoustic guitars (though the 737 really shines on subtle nylon string pieces). For male vox it really depends on the mic, the voice and the style - either can work, but may not be my first choice for heavier IYF rock-style vox (you already have an LA-610 - and it might be a better choice there).

As regards your last question, no you won't be able to run an M5 thru the LA-610's T4 compressor while using the 610 preamp simultaneously - at least not without mods to the LA-610, because it does not have a separate output for the pre or input for the T4. Nice idea though...

[silenthwk]

In general I lean towards the AD2022 for acoustic guitars (though the 737 really shines on subtle nylon string pieces). For male vox it really depends on the mic, the voice and the style - either can work, but may not be my first choice for heavier IYF rock-style vox (you already have an LA-610 - and it might be a better choice there).

Hey Darksky downunder, Rob, Ejmusic, Jay Lee, Tony, gabler, everyone..

Thanks so much for your feedback on the 737 and M5...This start-up gearslut, cheeseboy from Madison, WI, USA, truly appreciates the pro insights...

Looks like it's time to AB 737 and m5 and summon my own ears to make the choice.

Again, I do mostly acoustic/male vox using a digi 002, G5, LA-610..Neumann TLM 49, TLM 103...I usually take my stuff into a big studio to finish. But for VOX tracking and acoustic guitar tracking, do you think a DA converter, lavry or such is a must or a luxory...?? I'm getting greedy again for your insights..!

Thanks much again..

Peace from Cheeeeeeeseland...
MB
michaelbrandmeier.com

[DeepSpace]

Originally Posted by silenthawk

Looks like it's time to AB 737 and m5 and summon my own ears to make the choice.

Yes. Good advice notwithstanding, always use your own ears and your own judgement in the final decision.

Originally Posted by silenthawk

...do you think a DA converter, lavry or such is a must or a luxory...??

Fair question - but "must or luxury" is highly subjective and again, only you can decide what degree of finesse you can live with in the final result and what degree of stress (including financial stress) is justifiable to get there.

Suffice to say that the converters will make a difference - but that there is a 'weakest-link-of-the-chain" phenomenon in operation, so otyher things may make a bigger difference and it makes sense to spend $$ where it will count the most. If everything else in the signal chain is exactly as you would want it, then the Digi 002 may be the weakest link - but chances are that improving the room (acoustic treatment) or the monitors or other elements may have greater impact on the outcome and you should consider the whole picture before deciding where to apportion your budget.

[elambo]

I had both for quite a while and prefer the M5.

[silenthwk]

Fair question - but "must or luxury" is highly subjective and again, only you can decide what degree of finesse you can live with in the final result and what degree of stress (including financial stress) is justifiable to get there.

Suffice to say that the converters will make a difference - but that there is a 'weakest-link-of-the-chain" phenomenon in operation, so otyher things may make a bigger difference and it makes sense to spend $$ where it will count the most. If everything else in the signal chain is exactly as you would want it, then the Digi 002 may be the weakest link - but chances are that improving the room (acoustic treatment) or the monitors or other elements may have greater impact on the outcome and you should consider the whole picture before deciding where to apportion your budget. [/QUOTE]
______________________
Thanks for the very wise and cautious words. The weakest link thing sold me on waiting til' one day hopefully soon, affording a TDM system. Someday, I'd love to buy you a Fosters or whatever nice beer, coke, bottled water on me should I make it there. Please tell KYLIE MONIGUE she should have taken my TOPLINE & Lyrics that I wrote to the producers track on her last CD. It was better than what they chose. HA! Always easy to say from this vantage point...But I digress. By the way, I hope she's doing okay

Thanks very much again.
Peace,

Michael B.
www.michaelbrandmeier.com

[Ernest Buckley]

They're both the same apples, just different sizes. Get bigger.

Actually they are not the same. Go to http://avalondesign.com/737m5.html for the difference. The 737 has tubes, the M5 does not for one.

I`ve used the 2022 which is the M5 in a stereo format. Both pres have their place. I own two 737s and love them. I think they are flexible for just about everything. However I especially like them on vocals, acoustic guitars and as a bass DI.

The 737 has its limits though. The EQ is very strong and the pre is good for most applications that require a clean signal. The compressor is the weakest link. 2-3 dbs compression is cool but anything past that and you start to turn your head.

It really depends on what you`re doing. Someone suggested you get both and test them side by side. Return the one that doesn`t give you what you want.

Peace.

[Jazzy Alz]

Avalontutt ??? No thanks. Try API

[Jazzy Alz]

or neve 1084 if the budget allows

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by silenthawk

Bob,

Thanks for your reply.

Just a thought in case I hopefully get your pro-attention again, using the DIGI 002, G5 MAC...do I need a AD-CONVERTER (Analog-Digital) or vice versa to go along with my MIC PREAMPS...?Not need but do you think there'd be a huge difference adding a LAVRY or somekind of AD converter to mix??

Alright, wish I could buy you a beer/coke, bottled water for your good advice, but alas, please just take my dry humble thanks!!

Michael Of Cheeseland...

Exquisitely modest you are, young Jedi!

Well, on such a crazy hot day that bottle would be jst fine!

AD converters DO MAKE a noticeable difference in sound, they can either improve or degrade its quality and you WILL be able to hear it. Especially in lower end.

I had Digital Audio Denmark and Mytek converters, they're really a step forward and I can hear both extreme ends of sound spectrum sounding clearer and rounder, with really better detail.

On the other hand...

Unfortunately some time after I bought Mytek and DAD I heard that RME Hammerfall cards with external interface (i.e. Multiface II or Fireface 800) have converters of the same make as Apogee. I checked it, tried it and... that's true! They're the same Asahi Kasei (AKM) great components. I checked it by ear and there's really no difference, either to me and to the spectrum analyzer, between RME Hammerfall Multiface II and Apogee Rosetta 800, which is the industry standard, exept that Apogee is a lot more expensive. Well, a surprise...

Apogee has that "high-tech pro" tag while RME has a "more project studio orientated" rep, but when it comes to payment I'd go for RME immediately without slightest hesitation. That's why I'm thinking of getting rid of Digital Audio Denmark and Mytek and get a Manley Vari-Mu compressor and SPL MixDream instead. I'm already sweating...

Back to your question, Digi 002 is OK to track vocals, you don't have to wreck your moneymaker buying some expensive converters, because on vocals you will never hear that difference.

You WILL hear it if you get some good channel strip and use it instead of Digi 002 tacky pre, i.e. Langevin Dual Vocal Combo (stereo, solid state, extreme reliability and limiters by Manley) or SPL Channel One (mono, vacuum tube, great value, features and sound) and of course a great mike, i. e. Groove Tubes MD1B-T (vacuum tube, best bang for a buck, beautiful and "expensive" sound) or, say, AKG C12R (well, dreamer's sorta thang. And appropriate room acoustics.

But you will NOT hear any noticeable difference if you A\B Digi002 and Mytek or Lavry converters if you only track vocals. tutt

Again, you WILL hear it when recording bass, string section, horn section and especially when you want to mix OTB and have to record tracks from your G5 on tape or through some analog desk. Then don't hesitate and get them.

Don't go for such specialized gear too much, better focus more on know-how and right tracking decisions, and if you feel that irresistible urrrrrge to buy some new mojo, then go for sound-creating stuff such as mikes, preamps, channel strips and acoustics rather than for 010101-calculating gimmicks such as converters.

You'll be better off.

Have a great day, amigo!

Bob Amirian

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Jazzy Alz

Avalontutt ??? No thanks. Try API

API is GREAT, but the API works best with guitars, bass, drums etc, API not the best for vocals. Avalon much better.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Jazzy Alz

or neve 1084 if the budget allows

Same goes here as well. Neve is great but Neve is harsh, i had Neve, i sold Neve, the stuff is super clean but is very aggressive, too much, Avalon a better product for vocal pres. 737 and 2022 Rock for almost everything.

[adlai]

For male vocals and guitar, I would recommend the M5... but with one catch. You MUST install the optional JENSEN transformer in the M5! It makes it sound MUCH MUCH better. I currently own both the VT 737sp and the M5. I am completing a reggae/jazz project and currently running most of my keyboard tracks through both the M5 and the 737... then A/Bing them and so far the M5 is shining on just about everything. But the 737 has its purpose... but for voice and guitars my vote is M5 all the way.

www.lovesoundtrack.com

[mrkz1974]

Avalon 2022 (Stereo M5). You'll love it.

[Revelation]

They are both great units. The 737 of course is smoother and has the EQ and compressor making it a fuller package, but the M5 has a clearer sound. Both would be great in a studio. Here is an updated review on the 737 where it is compared to some of the newer pre's out there. http://www.studioreviews.com/737.htm

[DeepSpace]

Originally Posted by Revelation

Here is an updated review on the 737 where it is compared to some of the newer pre's out there. http://www.studioreviews.com/737.htm

Thanks for posting the link, Revelation.

IMO the reviewer gets it about right. The 737 does not have the bite and pizazz of some of the more recent offerings (we have a 737sp and an AD2022 here, along with pres from UA, Neve and others - and they both see plenty of use) but it does certain things very well. You do however have to take the time to get to know it and to get the best out of it.