I'm At An Important Crossroads - Advice appreciated!

[nickelironsteel]

hire an engineer

[Unclenny]

My first thought is......if you are getting ready to track your second album and you want it to be better than your first......which you thought was pretty good, than making major studio changes which introduce a learning curve could be counter-productive.

Looks like you have a good setup already. Maybe spend some of that money on the front end.......microphones are fun to buy.

[narcoman]

What's the goal?

Having a better studio or making a better record or having some chance of measurable success? If I only had £10k for a bands album i'd be looking at going into an out of london studio with £3k and getting a genre producer to come in and work for partnership plus £1k. I'd then but the rest in UK only PR (you can't do the USA with £6k). I wouldn't "improve" the studio.... unfortunately that's what I did with rather more than £10k and pretty much ruined the band I was in on EMI - although I did launch a rather good alternate career! Also £10k doesn't significantly change what you have apart.

So , what are the goals?

[gollumsluvslave]

Originally Posted by narcoman

What's the goal?

So , what are the goals?

From a band perspective, we are all in our late 30s, so there is no real goal in terms of marketing an album, or 'making it' etc (1st one was just a Bandcamp release), this is a passion/hobby first and foremost, we just want to record our songs as good as we can and pull something together we are proud of, regardless on how well it does.

We are a local Edinburgh band, and due to life commitments (kids, jobs, mortgages etc), no one is under any illusions - it's a fun thing first and foremost.

That said, we definitely want to get more people to listen to things this time around, and we think the songs are really good, but I see that is the band collectively being more proactive in the social networking side of things...

Also, personally for me, the studio is simply a place I can go and do my own thing and balance the working week with something I really enjoy, so that also includes wanting to record a pile of old ideas and back catalogue songs outwith Brittle Head Girl over the next 5-10 years with no real schedule or whatever, and maybe do some other collaborations with some other musicians I know, so any new gear/upgrades would be contributary to that also.

I work hard, and the studio (whether rehearsing, recording or mixing) is something that balances that out, both the excitement of learning new things (recording & mixing real drums for the first time on the 1st album was such an education for me personally).

Some people put their money into socialising, cars etc, and won't deny Gear Acqusition Syndrome, however the older I get, the less frivolous I am becoming and want to be as pragmatic as possible, whilst still getting the enjoyment out of it.

I realise that in the current economic landscape, keeping as much of that 10k tucked away would be a sensible thing to do.

[gollumsluvslave]

Originally Posted by Unclenny

making major studio changes which introduce a learning curve could be counter-productive.

Looks like you have a good setup already. Maybe spend some of that money on the front end.......microphones are fun to buy.

Good points, sanity checking is helpful!

I learned so much on the 1st album - mainly around dealing with real drums, that we are already getting things MUCH better during tracking, as opposed to having to fix/live with substandard recordings 'in the mix'.

From this point of view, the songs we are working on just now are already much better from a raw recording point of view, simply from learning from mistakes. Also, some gear (4-710D, Heil and Sontronics mics) were not present during tracking last time around, and they are contributing clear improvements.

[Facepalm]

Originally Posted by narcoman

a genre producer to come in and work for partnership plus £1k.

You're paying your producer £1000?
Recording and mixing your album in a weekend, then?

[doulos30]

better monitors would be top on my list also I'd avoid anything digital it will just change formats and be worthless in a few years. I'd get quality outboard eq, comps and preamps mics etc. The stuff your average bedroom producer doesn't have.

[shobud]

I'm with lenny, get a couple of nice mics and then re-assess. That's a lot of money to spend at once when you're not really sure what you want/need.

Dan

[Helge]

Yeah better monitors is a good idea I think (maybe something that covers a bit more of the bass range as well).

What do you think were the weaknesses of your first album ? ...

To capture the sources as good as you can (with good mics/pres) is good advice IMO. It makes your mix-sessions way easier and you still have the option to hand out good material to an "external" engineer just in case.

I really don´t know the GSR24M (it´s great I´m sure) but do you really want to recall settings of 24 tracks all the time ?
You´ve got a rocksolid system that you know - it´s worth a lot.

I´m not a big fan of major upgrades either - I´d let it grow slowly and look out for what´s missing...cheers

[AcoosticZoo]

Did you already have Waves Mercury? I know you're after hardware, but some of the new gen plugins like C6 H-EQ etc are really great.

I'd probably grab a hi-end tube mic like the Neumann Mic (M149 perhaps?) or the Manley reference. and splash out for some hi-end A/D convertors like Apogee, Cranesong etc..

Getting some acoustic foam treatment for recording and mixing room is a good idea too. and offcourse upgrading to the very best monitors you can afford. Probably need 15K+ for all of that brand new, but you'll get it cheaper 2nd hand.

Kind Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

[mcgruff]

If quality is your goal, look at a Lynx Aurora which I think is significantly better than an Apollo although the latter could be a decent option if you know you want UAD plugins. Personally I think they're very expensive.

For rock-solidness, pair that with an RME AES PCIe card. Nobody does the computer interface side of things better.

If you're looking for more preamp options, Seventh Circle Audio make some high quality DIY kits, assuming you don't mind getting busy with a soldering iron.

That will still leave a fair amount of money for mics. ADK A6's and S7's are good, inexpensive condensers and the new Thor looks particularly versatile. Can be hard to track down in the UK though. Shure KSM32 and AT4050 are other, decent mid-range mics. Any of these would add to your existing mic collection. ADK make some nice custom shop mics as well if you're looking for quality over quantity.

[cheu78]

I'd get a really good mic around the 2-3k mark like:

Violet Design Globe (Vintage or Standard)
Brauner Phantera
Gefell (anything you could afford, 92.1?)

Better monitoring:
Focals Solo or twin, ATC's, etc...

Get a better interface.. Mytek, SSL, RME.. All good stuff (or good enough)..

Get an analog board that sounds good (like the old soundcraft desks, maybe even a Midas Venice, or a Studer 169..)

Maybe get a great Neve-ish preamp:
Avedis MA5 (500 series)
BAE audio DMP or their 10xx series

I'd get real things and go analog, but that's me and all this stuff (especially workflow) is so personal.. There's no a real answer..



Cheu

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Facepalm

You're paying your producer £1000?
Recording and mixing your album in a weekend, then?

You need to read the whole quote!!

There are a LOT of deals involving bucket pay (and no producer I've hired mixes) and co-ownership of the project. Did this with several large projects with no front end and all back end.

I regularly work for no money and take back end. Worked one nice record four years ago for £2000 inc costs (hotel) and made mid 5 figures in back end as a partner.

[gollumsluvslave]

Thanks for the posts, and advice folks.

I think at this point I'm going to stick with what I have and limit any upgrades to the following:-

SM7B - generally regarded as a really good all round mic for rock vocals, will be a nice addition to the AT3035 that already works pretty decent on vocal duties.

Shure SRH1840 and Neumann KH120 - I think monitoring is the single weakest part of my studio, and the Neumann's should be a nice step up from my Samson Rubicon's. I also don't have a decent set of open-back cans, and the SRH1840 are really well-reviewed.

I'm quite used to the Rubicon's though, and they translate reasonably well, so if anyone knows of anywhere in the UK that allows demo's of KH120's (or others) to Edinburgh I'd rather try before I buy!

[gollumsluvslave]

Just thought I'd round off this old thread; it took a while but I've recently finally made some modest upgrades - a couple of the pieces of advice were great in making me realise that my core interface and DAW setup is stable and that counts for a lot.

I have picked up a pair of Neumann KH120 - b-stock from Studio Care - £800
A pair of Shure SRH1840, which I am really blown away by.

This combination I think really boosts my monitoring setup, and hopefully the band will see some fruits when mixing our 2nd album towards the end of June.

I've also added a couple of mics which should be of great use for vocals and guitars - the Shure SM7B which it seems we really can't go wrong with, and a Neumann TLM102, which I was impressed with in some of the shootouts I have seen - it should give a different flavour of condenser to the AT3035 that I already have.

My only concern now is that my DAC from either the Edirol UA-1000 / Central Station is a potential weak link with respect to the KH120A / Shure SRH1840; also the headphone outputs are a real weakpoint of the Central Station IMO.

I had also been looking at the Grace M903 as a replacement to the Central Station, but although I think it would be the perfect solution from a DAC / Headphone amp perspective, I would lose my Cue / Main options from the Central Station which I use a lot during tracking sessions.

Does anyone who has a M903 have any advice regarding handling cue mixes?

Also how does the USB interface work / where would you use it over a digital input?

My assumption is I would only use the M903 USB interface on a 2 track mastering type session, or for playback? The bit-perfect playback sounds interesting, but not sure how this would fit with an existing USB interface

Any advice or info would be appreciated!

[John Wells]

Slave, I'm not at all knowledgeable enough to advise you concerning gear, but please allow me to interject one more "con" into your risk analysis:

New gear means a new learning curve. Your comfort zone (and error-rate) will suffer for a spell while you're getting used to new gear. It's sorta like the oft omitted part of the old adage, "A new broom sweeps clean.....BUT the old broom knows where to sweep."

[popmann]

From a gear perspective, mics and reverb look suspect. That said...

The most important thing is to get specific with yourself. There is nothing you can buy that will magically bring "overall upgraded sound" save hiring someone (maybe). You need to do a "post mortem" on the last record--what sounded GOOD? What could use improvement? For those things--how does the raw track compare to the source "live"? Getting at--I know a LOT of people who play acoustic guitars that are mostly unsuitable for recording. An honest analysis would show that the recording sounds lek the guitar...which just isn't "that" acoustic sound they want. So, they borrow mine. I've had guitarists whose amps are fizzy--and never equated why people still use Plexi's and the like in the studio while they may use something more flexible at the gig.

Because recording gear, at BEST, can only sound as good as what you point it at...and in reality, most of the best kinda falls down on doing that. Meanwhile, said Plexi sounds fine with an sm7. Know what I mean?

Rather than looking at this as some "total upgrade"--if there's a specific aspect that was weak, you can likely address IT more succinctly. That's got to be the mantra in project studios--you can't afford a systematic "everything upgrade"...nor do you want the learning curve when starting a new record. You CAN likely afford say some new bass pickups and DI/amp to improve the bass tone...or a new vocal mic that suits the specific vocalist...or...a Royer or new speakers for the amps...or whatever specific thing to kick it up a notch.

It's actually one of the things I do for home guys when I mix for them. An honest appraisal of what was a pain in my butt versus what was solid so that next time they want to put money into the studio, they know where to get the bang for the buck.

[kiopo]

Originally Posted by John Wells

Slave, I'm not at all knowledgeable enough to advise you concerning gear, but please allow me to interject one more "con" into your risk analysis:

New gear means a new learning curve. Your comfort zone (and error-rate) will suffer for a spell while you're getting used to new gear. It's sorta like the oft omitted part of the old adage, "A new broom sweeps clean.....BUT the old broom knows where to sweep."

Whaaaat how can a broom know where to sweep?

[gollumsluvslave]

Cheers folks, good point from John Wells as it will obviously take time to get used to the new gear, that said I am also hoping that the new monitors (both Neumann's and SRH1840) being more accurate gear will help me make decisions faster and with more confidence, which would be the biggest issue mixing the 1st time around, time - it took a lot longer to mix than I was expecting, but to be fair to the old monitoring chain that was probably more an issue with figuring out how we wanted the songs to sound throughout the process as opposed to having a much stronger idea at the outset (which I do this time).

This time round, I'm much more confident of what the sounds should be, and how to get them, so my rationale is investing mostly in the monitoring side would be the best way to reinforce that the decisions are correct.

@Popmann - you are spot on regarding mics (i'd love to have picked up a few more!), but so far I'm very happy with the Valhalla reverbs - I will also be using both Strymon Timeline and Mobius that I got for my guitar setup as outboard come mix time. I'm happy with the verb and plugin situation; I've added Valhall vintage Verb and Slate VCC and VTM since I first posted this.

We are a rock band and on the last album the AT3035 was pretty much the only vocal mic that we had, so this time round I'm hoping the SM7B and the TLM102 will give us some more flavour - these choices were based on mostly listening to sample / shootouts.

So that hits the mics - I'd still like a few more options on the mic front (who doesn't?), but 3 vocal mics that (hopefully) suit our voices in differing ways will be enough - it's a LOT better than what we had at our disposal last time, and we were still happy with the end result - we just want to be more happy this time round a


@Popmann again:-

The most important thing is to get specific with yourself. There is nothing you can buy that will magically bring "overall upgraded sound" save hiring someone (maybe). You need to do a "post mortem" on the last record--what sounded GOOD? What could use improvement?

This was exactly why I hit invested in monitoring and mics;

The band has agreed on the last album is that although we are happy with it (when is anyone ever truly 100% happy? ) , from a sonics perspective, it is a bit too 'similar' sounding from song to song; consistency is one thing, but some songs could have done with a bit more sonic variety. This time round, we have a much better idea for each song of how we want it to sound (but still balance across the whole) and I felt that improving the monitoring side would really help me make decisions quicker to get to those sounds.

The KH120 is a much better size for my small room, but still has a good bass response and based on a lot of research I don't think it was a bad decision - of course time will tell!

[gollumsluvslave]

New gear means a new learning curve. Your comfort zone (and error-rate) will suffer for a spell while you're getting used to new gear. It's sorta like the oft omitted part of the old adage, "A new broom sweeps clean.....BUT the old broom knows where to sweep."

And to underscore this point John, this is EXACTLY why I haven't replaced my core setup (interface & DAW / plugs etc) because I think the learning curve of an Apollo or Allen & Heath would have been much MORE steep than getting used to the Neumann's - my workflow (which I learned tons about in terms of what works for me and what doesn't last time), is pretty much untouched.

I also still have the options of pretty much everything we used last time round - the only difference is a few more choices.

And hopefully a better monitoring chain to validate that those choices are the right ones

Also, the Rubicon's are now in my living room Cubase setup with the 2nd Edirol interface; this dual setup is great in terms of 2nd opinions - however last time round it was Samsons in main mix room, and Roland DM-10s in the living room for 2nd opinion. The new setup is a huge improvement on that even if the Neumann's dissapoint, as the Rolands were awful I do know how the Rubicon's sound so I still have them to use as reference if needed.