Analog Summing- There's a hole in my understanding

[Parisongs]

I almost flipped a coin as to what section to post in so if this gets moved I understand. Anyway,

So people are taking the outputs from their digital interface and bringing them into a box that sums to a stereo pair. Where I get lost is where the stereo master goes. You are going to give the mastering engineer 24 bit audio because that's what most of them want so how is this acheived? Are you going to take that "analog" pair back into another machine and then print the file? I really would like a clear, consise, explanation if any of you good fellows could take the time. I have looked around quite a bit here on the forums but have failed to get a detailed description of the signal chain and how things end up. There was a lot of its great, it dosen't matter, etc arguments that I did read through but I'm still confused.

[brian_delizza]

You buy a really nice two channel converter (ahem.. apogee, benchmark).

[Parisongs]

Originally Posted by brian_delizza

You buy a really nice two channel converter (ahem.. apogee, benchmark).

and.... ??

Anyone care to take the time and explain the chain? PLEASE?

[auxpot]

you bring out your several tracks from the daw into the analogue world (summing box)..then you print the 2buss (master) coming from the master output of the summing box, on a stereo track in the daw..

that´s the same as you would do when mixing digital tracks with an analogue mixing desk...a summing box is literally nothing else as a analogue mixer just with less features (faders, busses, eq, inserts etc)...

[ziegenh5]

You take your stereo output of your analog mixer and plug it back into your digital interface and record on any two open tracks, or you could get something like a Masterlink and record the final mix to that, or record it to tape, there are no rules. What I do.....I have a Radar and a Trident console. When I'm ready to print the mix, I take the output of the Trident and plug in into the Radar and record on tracks 23 and 24. I can then burn a CD for referencing. Works great!!!

Good luck,
Sean

[Jules]

If you have multi channel interfaces the OUTPUTS wil feed the summing device
- the INPUTS will be unused - you simply use two of these to record the mix BACK into the DAW.

You can 'supersize' this mix a/d conversion by using a fancy 2 ch a/d - the sky is the limit on price - I dont know what the most expencive is but they can run to over $10,000 for 2 x A/D's

You could plug the extra A/D unit into your interfaces via a optical, spdif or AES input

[ziegenh5]

The purpose of buying a two channel AD converter is to improve upon the sound quality of the digital capture. You certainly don't need one. If your digital interface is of high quality, the AD converters installed in your interface may be as good or better than most of the outboard converters, as is the case with the Radar IMO. If your interface is of lesser quality, then a good outboard AD converter will improve the signal on it's way into your daw. You can also use it during the tracking process. I personally don't think a stereo box will offer much improvement if you are using the stock DA's of a low quality interface when you are routing the tracks onto your summing device. If you are staying ITB or using great DA's as well, then it is definitely worth it.
Sean

[Parisongs]

Great info. Many thanks for the posts, guys. A lot of this is what I had already assumed but, of course, a lot of assumming gets you in trouble. I'm not sure if I'll go that route- I have RME converters as part of a (mid grade?) system. I'm really wanting to make some upgrades to my DAW. I understand that a great clock(al la Big Ben) could improve imaging and also, I'd like to invest in the UAD-1 for Pultecs, LA2A , Neve and also the Waves SSL. Also, I still need some Real Traps bass traps to complete my room.

[dbbubba]

Hell! I just go analog into my Fostex CD burner for down and dirty stuff and to my Studer A810 1/4" if I wanna get "fancier."
Sounds good enough to me!

I am VERY lucky that I have the means to get access top quality analog mastering gear when I need it.
I just do it at my friend's place and I have a choice of his vast array of toys.
This way I can audition a Neve 33609, a C2, a VariMu, 1073s, Masenburg EQ... yada yada...

Seriously, once it spits out of a good analog summing device I'm good with 1/4" 30 ips.
I'd like to spend the buxx on a 1/2" headstack, but the cost is way beyond what I want to spend.

Danny Brown

[ben_allison]

Assume there are 8 tracks coming from your DAW (stereo drums, bass, vox, 2 guitars, and stereo piano, let's say).

1) Send each track OUT into the mixer/summer.

2) Mix.

3) Next, patch the Stereo output from the mixer, back IN to the sound card.

4) Assign that input from your soundcard to a new stereo track for recording.

5) Hit record.

Basically, instead of recording and instrument, you are recording what comes out of the DAW/summer.

[dbbubba]

You know...

In my mind I just hate the thought of the mixdown going back into my DAW.
I guess if I am going to burn CD copies with my computer I might.

I used to mix into a Yamaha 01v and go SPDIF back into a MOTU 2408 mkII.
The sound was OK while monitoring through the 01v during mix.
Somehow the CDs never sounded good once I got away from the rig.
I always wondered if something was going on, so I just stopped doing that.

I like to mix to something.
Old school habits?
Probebly.

Danny Brown

[Parisongs]

I read on one really long thread where someone swore by using DAT or CD recorder to create their 16bit master rather than printing a 16bit wav. This was somone who mastered their own stuff inhouse.

[airmate]

Originally Posted by Parisongs

I read on one really long thread where someone swore by using DAT or CD recorder to create their 16bit master rather than printing a 16bit wav. This was somone who mastered their own stuff inhouse.

i don't see no sense at all in analog summing when the mixdowns are being printed with 16 bit...

[Parisongs]

Originally Posted by airmate

i don't see no sense at all in analog summing when the mixdowns are being printed with 16 bit...

Sorry. I kind of went off topic there.

[GYMusic]

If you decide to go with an outside summing device (the passive ones), I would suggest you put a signal through it (white noise) and see what effect the device has on the frequency spectrum. Some mixers/summers use resistors to achieve their L/C/R panning. The use of a resistive network can roll off the high end. Not good.

[crypticglobe]

Hey there. Here is how I have it setup:

2 x Lynx Aurora 16's.

2 x Folcrom Summing Bus

1 x UA 2192

I go out of channels 3 through 32 of the auroras into the Folcroms.

Out of the folcrom is this: pres for make-up gain>input of 2192>digital out of 2192 to channels 1 & 2 going into computer>record to a new stereo audio track in Nuendo for mixdown, or sometimes Wavelab>out of Nuendo (or WL) on channels 1 & 2>to 2192 digitally>analog outputs of 2192 going to monitoring.

This is working really great from me and works amazingly well! I have actually been running the Waves SSL compressor on the master input in Nuendo real time for my 2 bus compression. I am getting what I feel is truly the VERY best of both worlds.

All my stereo width is back. I have an 8 pack of SCA pre-amps (actually the picture on the site is mine... minus the 2 C84's I added to it) I use for make-up gain. 2 N72's, 2 A12's, 2 J99's, and 2 C84's!!

I can get a wide variety of colors, or very clean. I can push hard on the bus and get pretty much the same thing I get on a high quality big console. ALL the stereo width, and space that I always missed "ITB" is back!

I am very happy with this setup!

[Dave Peck]

Originally Posted by airmate

i don't see no sense at all in analog summing when the mixdowns are being printed with 16 bit...

I send the analog mix to an Alesis Masterlink set to 88.2kHz 24 bit, using a good 2-CH converter to bypass the Masterlink's so-so converters (I use the same good 2-CH converter to do most of the tracking too). This gives great results and the mastering guy now has a high res file to work with, and it allows them to convert from 24/88.2k to 16/44.1k CD Red Book which works very well.

DP