Dance music mixing - and yes the kick!!

[Wing Commander]

There are quite a few members who have requested more discussions about mixing dance music and in particualr tips for getting the kick drum to cut through in the mix.

I do a lot of work remixing other artist's records worldwide specifically as dance remixes. There is for the most part a world of difference between the approach that the engineer who has recorded the project takes when mixing the track and a specialist remixer engineer. Many of the projects I receive have been originally mixed by well known engineers. These are in most cases the radio versions and are usually technically very good for that purpose. However as we all know a dance mix is another kettle of fish.

Everything is based on the kick drum quite literally. By and large, modern dance music is mostly found in Europe and not the US. The style of a European dance mix is totally different from its American counterpart. For example, contrary to many American dance mixes, you don't dance to a snare you dance to a kick. This was always one of the biggest early differences and you probably recall those huge snares with copious amounts of gated/non linear reverb taking up a huge dynamic range leaving little or no room for anything else. Then someone eventaully realised that you could mute the snare and still keep the dancefloor going. SO DON'T WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT THE SNARE!

Given the importance of the kick there are some interesting theories I've seen put forward. From my standpoint the follwowing are my top 10 tips for approaching a dance mix.

1. Be very careful of over compressing the kick. A little can help accentuate the punchiness but too much and it will disappear into the thinnest, most feeble click. IF IN DOUBT LEAVE IT OUT!

2. Don't waste time trying to fix up a bad kick drum. No amount of tinkering with even the best comps and eq is going to rescue it. Simply replace it. MOST OF THE SOUND SHOULD BE THE ACTUAL SAMPLE YOU USE. I cannot empahsise this enough.

3. Once you've got your great kick sound, sample it and use it again and again. Contrary to what you might think your mix will not sound dated if you use the same kick drum. What dates a track is what you put on top of it. There are no "fads" with kicks. It either works or it doesn't.

4. Avoid excessive eq, if you're having to do that much to it then you're using the wrong kick drum. Select another.

5. As stated above, start your mix with the kick drum. Once you're happy with the sound, level it so that it hits about -4 or -6 db on your main stereo outputs to leave headroom for the rest of the elements in the mix.

6. Next put the rest of the "groove" in - i.e. hats. loop, snare etc but always ensuring the kick drum is still mostly prominent. This is important because as you add more elements it can dissappear if you're not careful.

7. Next add the bass. I'm assuming you've got your bass sound sorted, (if not I'm sure there are other posts that deal with this). Experiment with the level - you're aiming for a good marriage with the kick. The bass should work with the kick without masking it's click. Ironically one of the best ways to test for the right level is to monitor at a moderate level.

8. Now add any rhythem parts such as sequenced synths, guitars etc.

9. Next work in any pads you may use but keep the level quite low. Remember always the idea is to keep the kick as the most prominent feature. Be careful not to swamp your track with pads. They might sound great but they are for expression and don't help the groove. You can always raise them a tad later if necessary.

10. Finally add any vocals. Avoid excessive use of reverb especially on the lead. Try delays rather than reverb as it often adds depth without the clutter. When you do use reverb use the best you can. If it's hardware try Lexicon 480L/224 and if it's software Plate 140 is the best I've heard.

Getting the vocal level right is of course critical and you either know how to do this or you don't. In the past, vocal levels were usually louder for radio mixes and quieter for 12" mixes. However as pop/dance has proliferated this has now become outdated.

There is also a lot of talk about mix buss compression. My own view is that you have to be very careful with this. In short, it is not necessary remember the golden rule - IF IN DOUBT LEAVE IT OUT and let the mastering engineer apply it as necessary.

Using software 2 buss compressors is especially risky as you may be compromising all that you have worked on. My own view is that whilst they are getting better all the time, we are not quite at the stage where they can replace their hardware counterparts. They may be ok at low demands but since the current vogue for dance is to crush mixes they are usually employed to do just that which tends to yield distortion. Whether hardware or software, if you know what you're doing by all means use it but do yourself a favour and also run a pass of your final mix without it.

Tomes have been written for each of the above processes in their own right. This is therfore only designed to provide very rough pointers to the principles of mixing dance music from my own personal professional standpoint.

Not all dance mixes you do will be brilliant - it doesn't happen like that. Nevertheless there's no doubt that the more you do the better you will get and once you get the formula right it does become like riding a bike. You never forget it but some journeys are more enjoyable and easier than others!

[syra]

Good post

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

7. Next add the bass. I'm assuming you've got your bass sound sorted, (if not I'm sure there are other posts that deal with this). Experiment with the level - you're aiming for a good marriage with the kick. The bass should work with the kick without masking it's click. Ironically one of the best ways to test for the right level is to monitor at a moderate level.

Nice post, but I'm sure many people would like to hear you expand on the above point - it seems to be the most contentious one.

Do you
a) Roll off the kick and let the bass occupy the very lowest frequencies?
or
b) Roll off the bass and let the kick occupy the very lowest frequencies?

[Mr Edit]

To add to that list I would say that your ADSR is a vital tool. I would also say getting the kick in tune with the basss is also a good way to get the marrisge between kick and bass that you mention.

[djui5]

nice WC

[lawrence_o]

Try this:

Combine a kick with a very good attack with a kick with extreme good low end.
you'll have to use fades to merge them together properly but it works.

Then, if you really want the kick to "kick ass", to this:
- Mix the song until you are happy with the kick vs. anything else balance.
- Then, bounce anything else except the kick to a 2 track.
- Then, bounce the kick to a 2 track.

You have 2 stereo tracks now.
Now, import these 2 into a new window and put a separate end compressor on both tracks. Tweak them. On the mix buss, add another compressor-limiter which doesn't really compress a lot, only limts. This way, your kick won't ush away anything else in the mix and vice versa. I don't do this a lot as I usually don't suffer from kicks that don't rock but when I'm making jump or hard house stuff, I dare do that and I assure you, it knocks your pants off!

Cheers

[lawrence_o]

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

1. Be very careful of over compressing the kick. A little can help accentuate the punchiness but too much and it will disappear into the thinnest, most feeble click. IF IN DOUBT LEAVE IT OUT!

Well I don't fully agree though I understand what you mean. What's important for a good kick is that it has good attack. Kicks that have are a little short on this can still be salvaged by adding a narrow band in the high-mids ot highs. If you set the attack a little higher, you can still compress quite well to bring up any available lows and keep the attack. I once did the following: I put a waves RenEQ on a kick and cut a narrow band low around 80Hz. Stupid you'll think since there's a lot of punch there and we don't want to cut especially that, range. Well, after that, add a waves RenComp and apply the upCompressor. For some reason, it seemed it added double the missing frequencies and the result was an incredibla fat kick. Been trying to do it later but doesn't work for every kick. But I agree, too much is too much.

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

7. Next add the bass. I'm assuming you've got your bass sound sorted, (if not I'm sure there are other posts that deal with this). Experiment with the level - you're aiming for a good marriage with the kick. The bass should work with the kick without masking it's click. Ironically one of the best ways to test for the right level is to monitor at a moderate level.

I've heard about the trick when a kick has a lot of sub, the bass should be cut a bit on those sub-low frequencies and vice versa. Sometimes, you'll get more punch by cutting sub-low from either the bass or the kick to make them blend better together.
About the overEQing you said, don't agree. I quite oftenly turn up the SSL EQ to almost the max for sub low frequencies whenever I have a kick with a good attack but not enough low. Works.

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

9. Next work in any pads you may use but keep the level quite low. Remember always the idea is to keep the kick as the most prominent feature. Be careful not to swamp your track with pads. They might sound great but they are for expression and don't help the groove. You can always raise them a tad later if necessary.

I think one of the mistakes that many dance-producers make themselves guilty off is they don't use the "PAN" knob enough. Pads, guitars, trance-bass, it's all mixed in the middle and then, off course, they suck up everyting. A Pad should normally not interfere with your Kick since it occupies a complete different frequency range.

Another important issue when making good dance: Don't put too many elements in the mix! It's better to have only one good (perhaps dubbed) melodie that can be mixed wide by either dubbing them with a few other synths and/or effects than to have 10 different melodies playing all together.

If you feel like it's all becoming too much, loop the part that bothers you and start muting elements. I'm sure there will be a moment where you "feel you got it right."

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

10. Finally add any vocals. Avoid excessive use of reverb especially on the lead. Try delays rather than reverb as it often adds depth without the clutter. When you do use reverb use the best you can. If it's hardware try Lexicon 480L/224 and if it's software Plate 140 is the best I've heard.

Well it's difficult to use this rule as a basic one. You probably know the belgian band "Sylver". They are qute fameous. Although I think their arrangements suck (always the same structure, same synth sounds etc) they do use a lot of reverb on the vocals.

Also, I believe the vocals are important and should at all times be very understandable. This again is something that bothers me with too many dance-products. You can often barely understand what they are saying and indeed, as you say, sometimes due to excessive reverb. I mostly place the vocals in the mix after I put the Kick and the bass. After that, I add the groove up to a point where it swings but doesn't push down the vocals. Again, panning is important here. The vocals, I put in the middle of the mix unless I use dubs, then I pan of course. The groove, loops, high hats etc are ALWAYS panned! THis wat you can really make room for all elements in the mix. If you use reverb, that's okay, just don't use too long reverb time. I use between 1.4 and 2.4 seconds in dance, depending on whether its going more the techno way (meaning a LOT of dubbed filtered loops) or when it's more matching the vocal-trance. Some good examples of reverb and still okay sound is 4 Strings, Diving. They, like Sylver use a lot of reverb but it's done properly I feel.

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

Getting the vocal level right is of course critical and you either know how to do this or you don't. In the past, vocal levels were usually louder for radio mixes and quieter for 12" mixes. However as pop/dance has proliferated this has now become outdated.

I once was working with a dance "artist" and he used his car radio as a reference. This sounded like complete shit. While the vocals were very hearable and understandable on my Gennies, he always cam back: "The vocals must be really a lot louder you know!"

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

There is also a lot of talk about mix buss compression. My own view is that you have to be very careful with this. In short, it is not necessary remember the golden rule - IF IN DOUBT LEAVE IT OUT and let the mastering engineer apply it as necessary.

Yep. Very logical assumption. Unfortunately, in Belgium there is no mastering company worthy the name! Been getting "mastered" CDs back. Put them into tha car radio and felt there was no more punch. So I verified with my own master which indeed prooved to kick ass. So far for mastering. So my advice, if you can't afford real mastering guru's who have proven to be thrustworthy, do it your frakkin self. I agree that too much mix-bus can really screw up your efforts of making a good mix.

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

Using software 2 buss compressors is especially risky as you may be compromising all that you have worked on. My own view is that whilst they are getting better all the time, we are not quite at the stage where they can replace their hardware counterparts. They may be ok at low demands but since the current vogue for dance is to crush mixes they are usually employed to do just that which tends to yield distortion. Whether hardware or software, if you know what you're doing by all means use it but do yourself a favour and also run a pass of your final mix without it.

You can use the waves L2 or L3 to loudenize (stole word from Digital Drug Lord ;-) ) a bit but make sure the attenuation bar only peaks sometimes at max 3dB, thus not constantly.

This way you'll get a nice loud sound I feel which is not overdone. I agree though that hardware does the job better. When I mix, I add the SSL compressor on the mix buss, have it comress max 4db with e 2:1 or 4:1 at max ratio. I switch on the limiters in the Prism ADDAc and have the "limit" LEDs flash now and then, not constantly!

Thanks for your contributions.
Cheers
LAwrence

[lawrence_o]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

Nice post, but I'm sure many people would like to hear you expand on the above point - it seems to be the most contentious one.

Do you
a) Roll off the kick and let the bass occupy the very lowest frequencies?
or
b) Roll off the bass and let the kick occupy the very lowest frequencies?

I have a good tip on that.

When your kick has a lot of sub and the bass too, evaluate the bassline. When it is pretty busy meaning a lot of notes all the time, you're better off cutting the bass. Else it will really dominate anything else in the mix.
This tip is in the context of dance music where the kick is in a 4/4 beat scale. For hip hop this usually doesn't apply!

Regards
Lawrence

[Wing Commander]

Nice post, but I'm sure many people would like to hear you expand on the above point - it seems to be the most contentious one.

Do you
a) Roll off the kick and let the bass occupy the very lowest frequencies?
or
b) Roll off the bass and let the kick occupy the very lowest frequencies?

Good question James! Since the "punch" of the kick is in the mid freqencies and the "weight" comes from the low end, you must be careful not to remove too much low frequency from the kick or it will simply be lost and will not pack a punch. My advice therefore is to do this only in cases where you have an excessively boomy kick which has extra unwanted low frequencies. On the other hand if you've got this problem and you're not winning, you may wish to consider selecting an alternative kick drum.

So in answer to your question, the answer is b). Always roll off the bass rather than the kick for "4 on the floor" dance, though it should be said that very often it's a case of removing a small amount of unwanted lows from both kick and bass. Certainly for dance you need a tight bottom end with the kick sticking out just ahead of the bass.

I do it this way around because if it were the reverse, you could end up with lots of warmth (bass) but no focus (kick drum) and since as we know, it's the kick that holds the dancefloor, you're best off keeping that your priority over the bass.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

There are quite a few members who have requested more discussions about mixing dance music and in particualr tips for getting the kick drum to cut through in the mix.

I do a lot of work remixing other artist's records worldwide specifically as dance remixes. There is for the most part a world of difference between the approach that the engineer who has recorded the project takes when mixing the track and a specialist remixer engineer. Many of the projects I receive have been originally mixed by well known engineers. These are in most cases the radio versions and are usually technically very good for that purpose. However as we all know a dance mix is another kettle of fish.

Everything is based on the kick drum quite literally. By and large, modern dance music is mostly found in Europe and not the US. The style of a European dance mix is totally different from its American counterpart. For example, contrary to many American dance mixes, you don't dance to a snare you dance to a kick. This was always one of the biggest early differences and you probably recall those huge snares with copious amounts of gated/non linear reverb taking up a huge dynamic range leaving little or no room for anything else. Then someone eventaully realised that you could mute the snare and still keep the dancefloor going. SO DON'T WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT THE SNARE!

Given the importance of the kick there are some interesting theories I've seen put forward. From my standpoint the follwowing are my top 10 tips for approaching a dance mix.

1. Be very careful of over compressing the kick. A little can help accentuate the punchiness but too much and it will disappear into the thinnest, most feeble click. IF IN DOUBT LEAVE IT OUT!

2. Don't waste time trying to fix up a bad kick drum. No amount of tinkering with even the best comps and eq is going to rescue it. Simply replace it. MOST OF THE SOUND SHOULD BE THE ACTUAL SAMPLE YOU USE. I cannot empahsise this enough.

3. Once you've got your great kick sound, sample it and use it again and again. Contrary to what you might think your mix will not sound dated if you use the same kick drum. What dates a track is what you put on top of it. There are no "fads" with kicks. It either works or it doesn't.

4. Avoid excessive eq, if you're having to do that much to it then you're using the wrong kick drum. Select another.

5. As stated above, start your mix with the kick drum. Once you're happy with the sound, level it so that it hits about -4 or -6 db on your main stereo outputs to leave headroom for the rest of the elements in the mix.

6. Next put the rest of the "groove" in - i.e. hats. loop, snare etc but always ensuring the kick drum is still mostly prominent. This is important because as you add more elements it can dissappear if you're not careful.

7. Next add the bass. I'm assuming you've got your bass sound sorted, (if not I'm sure there are other posts that deal with this). Experiment with the level - you're aiming for a good marriage with the kick. The bass should work with the kick without masking it's click. Ironically one of the best ways to test for the right level is to monitor at a moderate level.

8. Now add any rhythem parts such as sequenced synths, guitars etc.

9. Next work in any pads you may use but keep the level quite low. Remember always the idea is to keep the kick as the most prominent feature. Be careful not to swamp your track with pads. They might sound great but they are for expression and don't help the groove. You can always raise them a tad later if necessary.

10. Finally add any vocals. Avoid excessive use of reverb especially on the lead. Try delays rather than reverb as it often adds depth without the clutter. When you do use reverb use the best you can. If it's hardware try Lexicon 480L/224 and if it's software Plate 140 is the best I've heard.

Getting the vocal level right is of course critical and you either know how to do this or you don't. In the past, vocal levels were usually louder for radio mixes and quieter for 12" mixes. However as pop/dance has proliferated this has now become outdated.

There is also a lot of talk about mix buss compression. My own view is that you have to be very careful with this. In short, it is not necessary remember the golden rule - IF IN DOUBT LEAVE IT OUT and let the mastering engineer apply it as necessary.

Using software 2 buss compressors is especially risky as you may be compromising all that you have worked on. My own view is that whilst they are getting better all the time, we are not quite at the stage where they can replace their hardware counterparts. They may be ok at low demands but since the current vogue for dance is to crush mixes they are usually employed to do just that which tends to yield distortion. Whether hardware or software, if you know what you're doing by all means use it but do yourself a favour and also run a pass of your final mix without it.

Tomes have been written for each of the above processes in their own right. This is therfore only designed to provide very rough pointers to the principles of mixing dance music from my own personal professional standpoint.

Not all dance mixes you do will be brilliant - it doesn't happen like that. Nevertheless there's no doubt that the more you do the better you will get and once you get the formula right it does become like riding a bike. You never forget it but some journeys are more enjoyable and easier than others!

I used to do a fair amount of dance remixes till it kinda went away in the US.
My clients who were the credited remixers didnt really know anything about music, so
I would do quite alot of programming, although they would do most the drums and
and the breakdowns. Often they would fall in love with the worst drums sounds and in the begining I would fight with them to replace them. As time went on I would just deal with whatever they gave me and view it as a challenge. I have to disagree with your point about compressing the kick, in my view its about the right compression,
you need a very fast compressor, by that I mean not neccessarily attck time but I good compressor that doesnt kill the drum, a distressor is something I often reached for. Also parallel compression set right will help bring out the attack and punch. Sometimes you can't replace and you have to deal, using compressors and eq's correctly can usually get you there. Also while I won't speak about software 2 mix compression, since I don't use it, I think using a hardware compressor and mixing into the compressor from just about the begining of the mix is very important. It provides an important glue and more importantly prevents your mix from changing
during mastering.

[RainbowStorm]

Thanks Wing Commander! Many nice suggestions! I wish there were a little more posts like this here on Gearslutz, because you always get new interesting ways of targeting things and trying and when there are questionable things it results in an interesting discussion...!

I want to add one thing. I am not a dance mixer, but I feel that when it comes to the kick drum I think delay is really important. I prefer track offset instead of delay (both channels panned at the same setting), but anyways, a nice delay will enhance the depth, especially when applied after compression. If you apply the delay first the kick drum will end up unnatural sounding. So delay and then late time hard limiting is not something I recommend.

When it comes to compression I focus on getting the attack right. I often use a setting of 0.90 on Waves C1, which I often think works great...

[syra]

Good advice everyone. Let me share my go-to setup for house music. Btw I use this config only with my Drums, not my harmonic/melodic instruments.

Ingredients: 2 Stereo compressors, 1 Stereo Gate

1). Compress your programmed beat except for the kick with one of the comps. Use the kick as the key to the compressor. Now your whole beat grooves around the kick while the kick doesn't get compressed.

2) Setup a parallel comp with the fastest attack possible (your aim is to bring out the decay of the sounds...release should be fast too). Send individual drum sounds in it including a bit of the kick (YMMV)

3) Setup a parallel gate and do as above but aiming for a tight short sound. Entertain you possibilities by keying the Gate either with one of the drum sounds or even a rhythmic melodic instrument part. Also, since the sound is so short and tight, delays seem to work best with this process

Mix, Blend and Enjoy

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Wing Commander

Good question James! Since the "punch" of the kick is in the mid freqencies and the "weight" comes from the low end, you must be careful not to remove too much low frequency from the kick or it will simply be lost and will not pack a punch. My advice therefore is to do this only in cases where you have an excessively boomy kick which has extra unwanted low frequencies. On the other hand if you've got this problem and you're not winning, you may wish to consider selecting an alternative kick drum.

So in answer to your question, the answer is b). Always roll off the bass rather than the kick for "4 on the floor" dance, though it should be said that very often it's a case of removing a small amount of unwanted lows from both kick and bass. Certainly for dance you need a tight bottom end with the kick sticking out just ahead of the bass.

I do it this way around because if it were the reverse, you could end up with lots of warmth (bass) but no focus (kick drum) and since as we know, it's the kick that holds the dancefloor, you're best off keeping that your priority over the bass.

I have a slightly different approach on this. I usually make sure no mid-high elements in the mix get to occupy most of that holy low frequency range, so I cut a little lows besides adding highs on most of these elements, I vary the degree though depending on what element it is. When both the bass guitar and the kick mostly work on the same frequencies I prefer to boost a little mids and highs on the bass guitar. I usually want the bass guitar to be slightly closer than the drums and don't want the bass guitar to be very muddy. Some prefer applying LPF on the bass guitar, but I want to avoid that, much because I like high bass guitar tones and so that I can set the bass guitar a little lower in volume as a way of making the mix lighter and softer and for saving signal for the vocals and the snare. When it comes to the kick drum I usually want to boost a little lows and cut a little highs. I don't really like when a kick drum is too smashed due to the noise of the pad when it hits the kick drum overhead. I want to filter out a little of that plastic sound. Besides that I also want to make sure it doesn't interrupt the vocals in the center.

So generally I most of all focus on not letting mid-high instruments interrupt the low end. There are of course cases when I use panning as a way out of this, especially with the pad elements like piano which I think often are played quite low and are extremely beautiful in that low mid range. I apply a high pass filter on these, but with the crossover point set very low.

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by syra

Good advice everyone. Let me share my go-to setup for house music. Btw I use this config only with my Drums, not my harmonic/melodic instruments.

Ingredients: 2 Stereo compressors, 1 Stereo Gate

1). Compress your programmed beat except for the kick with one of the comps. Use the kick as the key to the compressor. Now your whole beat grooves around the kick while the kick doesn't get compressed.

2) Setup a parallel comp with the fastest attack possible (your aim is to bring out the decay of the sounds...release should be fast too). Send individual drum sounds in it including a bit of the kick (YMMV)

3) Setup a parallel gate and do as above but aiming for a tight short sound. Entertain you possibilities by keying the Gate either with one of the drum sounds or even a rhythmic melodic instrument part. Also, since the sound is so short and tight, delays seem to work best with this process

Mix, Blend and Enjoy

Yeah, I think parallel compression could work in dance mixes to add some weight. I think the New York compression trick could work on this, meaning you cut out all mids on the compressed track in parallel.