Singers who "think" they can play an "EASY" instrument-but...:)
Have a (recent) running gag with a super talented singer/songwriter, that started with me "happening" to have the trusty/dreaded singer's arch weapon AKA the tambourine. Which actually led to some rather hilarious banter from the stage (pre-arranged BTW) directed towards yours truly in the audience, the second time it showed up at his gig.
Anyway...
Got me thinking about those other potentially annoying instruments that a lot of folks "think" they they can play O.K. (like harmonica too), that may show up-ahem-unexpectedly at a gig, or God forbid a studio session.
BTW don't get me wrong, ain't nothing like the real thing when someone like Jack Ashford (Motown 60/70's) shook that thang.
Vaguely OT, but if so, definitely parallel to the original topic.
The way people generally perceive "talent" is completely off-kilter nowadays.
Direct your attention to the attached file.
Does it sound familiar? The gentle rocking right hand with roots in the left? (The passing tone doesn't count; I couldn't bear to not make at least one second one percent interesting.)
Now, I don't begrudge the artistic decision to write piano parts like this. I also don't begrudge the commercial decision. This is because Bruno Mars is a talented fella. He's a fine piano player! But his ability to play a gently rocking I-V-vi-IV in C for Lighters (the example is in G, the second most insipid key ) should never be used as proof of talent.
Because:
a) You get instrumentalists who are terrible at music. This already happened to the guitar; it's happening to the piano.
b) People who aren't me get paid to transcribe piano parts for SONGBOOKS!?
The gaggle of people who are amazed at people who can play Lighters is astounding and as a man with roots in classical music and opera, a bit unnerving. I used to be involved with a bunch of musical theater lovers, and I would relish the look on their faces when I put on Franco Corelli or Cornell MacNeil.
And on another note, I've noticed that people haven't thought of me as a singer since I took up the piano seriously, even though every bit of significant musical background I have excluding the past two years is all rooted in singing.
Thanks for the venting opportunity. You're always here for me, Chris.
EDIT: The reason I find this significant is because when I run into the "piano guy" in other circles (I'm an upcoming college senior), I tend to run circles around him. I like to do this thing where I tell people to request a key for me to begin on and a key to end on, to prove I'm improvising. Too many combinations to realistically doubt.
Didgerichuffindoos . You learn to breath in a circular motion and you spend most of your life blowing down a piece of freaking wood? I think you misunderstood the only real use for such a talent, be you male or female.
Oh and "ethnic drummers" who are neither "ethnic" nor drummers, if you look up the definition of the word "prat", when used a mass noun it refers to a bunch of trustafarians who think they have a right to show up at any ancient monument and ruin everyone's day by banging away endlessly whilst perched on a Mongolian birthing blanket.
Been thinking of this as my "mission statement" when teaching chess;
"Many players think they're better than they are, but most players can be much better (than they ever imagined!) with proper training"-within reason!
Suppose it applies to any performance/skill based activity.
BTW real possibility I may do a lesson trade (chess for percussion) with a world class drummer/percussionist-when he has some down time.
I remember Mixerman's book about recording the band "Bitchslap'", has some funny stuff. Like when the girlfriend of a band member starts joining in on percussion at the studio -except IIRC she shows she's a better musician then the rest of them!
I have a slightly different take....
I think playing percussion effectively is very hard, but it's not seen that way by most people in the music industry.
My pet peeve is two fold, badly played percussion taking away, rather than adding, and overplayed percussion. You don't need shaker from first to last bar of a song, or tambourine. A percussionist doesn't need to add extra tom fills, or double up the cymbal crashes the drummer is playing.
However, as a drummer, I often do find value in non drummers drumming.
The trouble with us drummers is that we get hung up on drumming rules. None drummers are free of constraints. They often play for the song. They'll do odd things like play a fill on bar seven of a verse, or suddenly go to the ride on bar three of as chorus.
Having played with young indie bands from time to time, I find the same with novice guitar players and bass players. They aren't caught up with flash, so their whole mind is focussed on playing for the song and achieving a good groove. Innovation is often found by breaking rules you don't know exist. Like playing odd chord arrangements by normal music standards, or having a Bb in the bass part under a G Major chord.
Ugh, I'm gonna chime in and say, considering I (like to think I) am a fairly talented rock drummer, I actually have the hardest time playing a tambourine on time. It's really weird.
__________________ "Never underestimate the power of authenticity."
- Gregory Scott
I actually have the hardest time playing a tambourine on time.
Yeah, in my case my arm falls off after a couple of choruses.
When playing shaker my mind starts to over analyse, I can hear all kinds of different aspects to the feel as I'm doing it, and as a result a simple shaker part starts to sound self conscious and wooden.
I'll stick to drums.
Yeah, in my case my arm falls off after a couple of choruses.
When playing shaker my mind starts to over analyse, I can hear all kinds of different aspects to the feel as I'm doing it, and as a result a simple shaker part starts to sound self conscious and wooden.
I'll stick to drums.
I've often found that swallowing your pride and playing the self-consciously simple part is the best solution. But I think I know how you feel. I felt like an idiot playing that part I posted, but sometimes, you can't hide behind a tirade of technical talent.
I suppose one would say that playing something so incredibly empty must feel naked. To clothe oneself in one's own ability sometimes isn't quite the best solution. (Apprpriate smiley)
Tambourine is hard! In the wrong hands, a deadly groove-killer.
I only know 4 people who I would consider _good tambourine players.
One is a drumset drummer
one is a percussionist
but two actually are singers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kierkes
I've often found that swallowing your pride and playing the self-consciously simple part is the best solution
One of the singers does that, but she ATTACKS the thing with an amazing intensity. There's no 'drift' in her groove because it's all-out from the beginning. Very simple but fierce.
The other singer actually has tambourine 'virtuosity'. His playing is real solid, he has total control of the jangles, but he also has decorative little licks, fills, fancy left-hand slapping, and by god, dynamics!
__________________
.
“What you ask about is music. What you like is sound. Now music and sound are akin, but they are not the same.”
— Confucius
BTW a good demonstatration of how to integrate tambourine/stage moves is on the film footage (on Youtube) of The Rascals doing their hits live.
Holy hand grenade Batman, not a pitch correction about either.
Eddie Brigati is very entertaining on these-and of course Dino Danelli (drummer) is amazing! In fact all were top notch, group first inspired moniker "blue eyed soul" by the press. Can't really give this A-1 classic group justice with a capsule discription.
Ugh, I'm gonna chime in and say, considering I (like to think I) am a fairly talented rock drummer, I actually have the hardest time playing a tambourine on time. It's really weird.
Like hand-clapping, it's easier to keep your time tight if you only move one hand. (Assuming you are playing with two hands.)
If you move both hands on the way to impact, many folks' brains have a harder time calculating the trajectories. But if you only move one hand, leaving the other stationary (a non-moving target, if you will), it makes it a lot easier to stay on the beat.
That was taught me by an engineer who'd go on to win a Grammy. I was the producer of a session and somehow, everyone thought it would be a good idea if I joined in on the hand claps. Ahem. When I proved to be a less than ideal hand-clapper, the drummer and the engineer got together and gave me a remedial lesson in handclapping.
EDIT: It's 10 minutes or so later and I'm listening to some Charles Mingus and a round of in-studio rhythmic hand clapping breaks out in one session and the general looseness/flamminess makes me think, Gee, I could almost fit into that group of hand clappers. So I look down to the task bar and see that the title of the track is... "Slop."
Bear with the logic here! C and G aren't in and of themselves insipid; there are definitely more insipid songs in C and G than there are in F# though! Obviously in sheer number, and in ratio. I'm not a crazy that actually hates on keys, as evidenced by my . The piano is becoming more and more widespread for better and for worse, and I, for one, would detect something sonically strange if I played that pattern in something like Db, just from what I know Db to sound like compared to C.
Db major: A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key
F# minor: A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language
Db major: A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key
F# minor: A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language
That guy should be writing a wine column.
I was wondering if maybe Kierkes had been suggesting that C and G are 'insipid' because they're easy keys to play in from some angles (minimizing the necessity of having to reach up to a black key in large part -- not to mention easing the burden of remembering what notes are in the key). But that seemed, itself, too easy.
EDIT: It's 10 minutes or so later and I'm listening to some Charles Mingus and a round of in-studio rhythmic hand clapping breaks out in one session and the general looseness/flamminess makes me think, Gee, I could almost fit into that group of hand clappers. So I look down to the task bar and see that the title of the track is... "Slop."
In this day and age of digital perfection, I think there's a great deal to be said for 'slop'.
Flamming hand claps sound better to me than perfectly performed staccato claps. I think often the best bits in classic tracks are the mistakes, or the off-kilter parts.
With new technology everything can be massaged into a perfect performance, so the decision to leave some human frailty in each performance is what separates the great from the perfect.
I was wondering if maybe Kierkes had been suggesting that C and G are 'insipid' because they're easy keys to play in from some angles (minimizing the necessity of having to reach up to a black key in large part -- not to mention easing the burden of remembering what notes are in the key). But that seemed, itself, too easy.
Yeap..That. And what I said. Hahaha. Overanalysis!!
The way people generally perceive "talent" is completely off-kilter nowadays.
From where I'm standing, what's actually off kilter is the way *you* perceive talent, because you've lost all connection to what it's like for the vast majority of people who have very little, if any, talent for playing a musical instrument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kierkes
The gaggle of people who are amazed at people who can play Lighters is astounding and as a man with roots in classical music and opera, a bit unnerving.
I respectfully submit that so many people consider the ability to play Lighters to be amazing because it is exactly that: amazing.
From where I'm standing, what's actually off kilter is the way *you* perceive talent, because you've lost all connection to what it's like for the vast majority of people who have very little, if any, talent for playing a musical instrument.
I respectfully submit that so many people consider the ability to play Lighters to be amazing because it is exactly that: amazing.
Gregory Scott - ubk
Touche, friend. Touche! I will concede to you the abnormal vantage point. Just so we're clear: I'm not saying that people who can do those things are not talented. And I assume you're using the word "amazing" to describe a reaction of a person or persons. In that case, I'll gladly marginalize my opinion to retain my not-so-amazed reaction!
Along the "percussion is deceptively hard" line of thought, a few weeks ago somebody here on GS posted a link to a snippet of film about the Rolling Stones' recording of "Sympathy for the Devil." The clip starts with Mick Jagger trying to sing and play bongos at the same time. He's a great singer (duh), and his playing was "enthusiastic," but it was riddled with groove-killing jerkiness.
They switched to having him just sing, and things got much better in a hurry.
The lesson being: Don't feel bad about not being able to play simple instruments well. Even the best have trouble.
Yep, saw an excellent pro drummer (Evan Stone/O.C. area) last night, and a tambourine was attached to his drum kit. Mentally following along there was plenty of temptation (if it were me) to do "extra stuff", but mostly it was used effectively on the down beat. Gonna do the less is more as a beginner.
Oh and "ethnic drummers" who are neither "ethnic" nor drummers, if you look up the definition of the word "prat", when used a mass noun it refers to a bunch of trustafarians who think they have a right to show up at any ancient monument and ruin everyone's day by banging away endlessly whilst perched on a Mongolian birthing blanket.
Throw in a bunch of dogs with bandannas and you're probably in Boulder.
As an engineer, I'm a pretty good percussionist. I've done plenty of perfectly acceptable shaker and tamb ODs.
But when a REAL percussionist comes in, the difference is obvious.
There are instruments that are easier than others to play. Guitar is much easier than violin if you just want to be able make music. Leaning to play a melody on a harmonica is easy. Just getting a sound out of a clarinet is hard.
But no instrument is easier than any other to play really well.
__________________
To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
-Henri Poincare
In that case, I'll gladly marginalize my opinion to retain my not-so-amazed reaction!
Fair enough!
And in all honesty, I was having a good day when I wrote that. On my less-than-good days, I can occasionally be seen shaking a fist at the radio and muttering something about no-talent hacks.
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), that may show up-ahem-unexpectedly
at a gig, or God forbid a studio session.
) should never be used as proof of talent.
, just was able to throw some headphones on to listen.
I was the producer of a session and somehow, everyone thought it would be a good idea if I joined in on the hand claps. Ahem. When I proved to be a less than ideal hand-clapper, the drummer and the engineer got together and gave me a remedial lesson in handclapping.
